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Signer10

Endurist thinking treats reproduction as always acceptable or even virtuous, regardless of circumstances. The potential for suffering rarely factors into this calculation—new life is seen as inherently good.

Not necessary - you can treat creating new people differently from already existing and avoid creating bad (in Endurist sense - not enough positive experiences, regardless of suffering) lives without accepting death for existing people. I, for example, don't get why would you bring more death to the world by creating low-lifespan people, if you don't like death.

Signer10

clearly the system is a lot less contextual than base models, and it seems like you are predicting a reversal of that trend?

The trend may be bounded, the trend may not go far by the time AI can invent nanotechnology - would be great if someone actually measured such things.

And there being a trend at all is not predicted by utility-maximization frame, right?

Signer235

People are confused about the basics because the basics are insufficiently justified.

Signer10

It is learning helpfulness now, while the best way to hit the specified ‘helpful’ target is to do straightforward things in straightforward ways that directly get you to that target. Doing the kinds of shenanigans or other more complex strategies won’t work.

Best by what metric? And I don't think it was shown, that complex strategies won't work - learning to change behaviour from training to deployment is not even that complex.

Signer1-1

But it is important, and this post just isn’t going to get done any other way.

Speaking about streetlighting...

Signer20

What makes it rational is that there is an actual underlying hypothesis about how weather works, instead of vague "LLMs are a lot like human uploads". And weather prediction outputs numbers connected to reality we actually care about. And there is no alternative credible hypothesis that implies weather prediction not working.

I don't want to totally dismiss empirical extrapolations, but given the stakes, I would personally prefer for all sides to actually state their model of reality and how they think evidence changed it's plausibility, as formally as possible.

Signer42

There is no such disagreement, you just can't test all inputs. And without knowledge of how internals work, you may me wrong about extrapolating alignment to future systems.

Answer by Signer56

Yes, except I would object to phrasing this anthropic stuff as "we should expect ourselves to be agents that exist in a universe that abstracts well" instead of "we should value universe that abstracts well (or other universes that contain many instances of us)" - there is no coherence theorems that force summation of your copies, right? And so it becomes apparent that we can value some other thing.

Also even if you consider some memories a part of your identity, you can value yourself slightly less after forgetting them, instead of only having threshold for death.

Signer10

It doesn't matter whether you call your multiplier "probability" or "value" if it results in your decision to not care about low-measure branch. The only difference is that probability is supposed to be about knowledge, and Wallace's argument involving arbitrary assumption, not only physics, means it's not probability, but value - there is no reason to value knowledge of your low-measure instances less.

this makes decision theory and probably consequentialist ethics impossible in your framework

It doesn't? Nothing stops you from making decisions in a world where you are constantly splitting. You can try to maximize splits of good experiences or something. It just wouldn't be the same decisions you would make without knowledge of splits, but why new physical knowledge shouldn't change your decisions?

Signer10

Things like lions, and chairs are other examples.

And counted branches.

This is how Wallace defines it (he in turn defines macroscopically indistinguishable in terms of providing the same rewards). It’s his term in the axiomatic system he uses to get decision theory to work. There’s not much to argue about here?

His definition leads to contradiction with informal intuition that motivates consideration of macroscopical indistinguishability in the first place.

We should care about low-measure instances in proportion to the measure, just as in classical decision theory we care about low-probability instances in proportion to the probability.

Why? Wallace's argument is just "you don't care about some irrelevant microscopic differences, so let me write this assumption that is superficially related to that preference, and here - it implies the Born rule". Given MWI, there is nothing wrong physically or rationally in valuing your instances equally whatever their measure is. Their thoughts and experiences don't depend on measure the same way they don't depend on thickness or mass of a computer implementing them. You can rationally not care about irrelevant microscopic differences and still care about number of your thin instances.

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