Cyan and I had a good discussion (several, actually) on our long recent drive. Among diverse topics, he explained something that lead to a confusion-reducing revelation.
On meeting Eliezer, Cyan wished to engage him on Measure Theory. Cyan felt that it might be a useful tool for Eliezer's fAI work. The conversation was interesting (I'll leave it to someone more mathematically competent to summarize), but what I remarked on was how it started.
Cyan began, "Eliezer, I'd say you're at least 3 levels above me, but I thought I could offer some advice on Measure Theory..."
I took this to be (needless) status-lowering behavior, and mentioned this in later conversation. However, it came out that this wasn't so, and there was original thinking behind the number "3".
Cyan's formalization of "levels" involved the creation of useful new concepts. Someone a single level above you can create concepts that you can understand, but could not generate on your own.
Cyan felt that Average Physicists were a level above him, Elite Physicists a level higher, and estimated that Eliezer was a level beyond that. Eliezer's original concept of Levels seems to imply that one's level is biologically determined and immutable, and so a single "EY-level" is probably akin to the highest possible "Cyan-level". I will therefore refer to Mutable (Cyan-levels) and Immutable (EY-levels) Levels to distinguish the two. The former is the attainment of one's greatest potential, the latter describes this potential.
I thought that this was a useful way to think about levels and "leveling up", but not completely right. I didn't think that levels were generalizable. Alice, Bob, and Cheryl might form a natural chain in which each was one Mutable Level above the previous person in the chain, but this chain could be very different with different players. Alice, Zorba, Xeno, Yudkowsky, and Cheryl could form an equally logical chain with each person being one Mutable Level above the previous person, so it doesn't make sense to refer to someone as X levels above you.
Cyan and I eventually agreed that this makes more sense, and had the additional benefit providing a useful way to guide seeking out mentors.
Therefore I make several claims I'd like the group's thoughts on:
- A useful way to think about "Levels" is as describing increasing ability to produce concepts of greater explanatory power or insight.
- It is useful to think of someone as a level above you if they can generate novel ideas that you can only understand, but could not have produced from scratch.
- Levels can be usefully thought of as Mutable (if they are amenable to improvement through study or holistic self improvement), or Immutable (if they are biologically - or otherwise - determined and fixed).
- One's maximally attainable Mutable Level is equivalent to one's Immutable Level; the latter describes potential, while the former describes the attainment of that potential.
- Mutable Levels are path dependent; it makes no sense to talk about levels abstractly, only in relation to specific individuals (or specific groups whose members have very similar abilities in the domain of interest).
My instinct was to ignore this reply, but I recently read a suggestion that among sufficiently rational people there is never simply a need to agree to disagree. Do you folks on this site have some sort of standard disclaimer that questions are grounded in curiosity, and are not meant to belittle anyone's experience or opinion? In any case, I'm just curious. These questions are directed to Cyan and/or Normal Anomaly and/or anyone else with a similar reaction.
Suppose that within a given domain of knowledge, Alice can create concepts that Bob can understand but not generate, and Bob can create concepts that Carol can understand but not generate. Does this imply:
I'm also confused about what it means for a concept to be beyond someone's reach. The closest experience I can think of is a mathematical theorem I cannot understand. But usually the cause of that is that I do not understand one or more of the definitions or theorems involved in the statement of the theorem itself, and enough study could presumably resolve that.
Or maybe the concept of a concept beyond someone's reach is beyond my reach.
Disclaimer: Any discussion of XFrequentist's model in this comment is not necessarily how XFrequentist thinks of it, but rather my variant on it.
... (read more)