Sam Altman xeeted on Friday, "i think this is gonna be more like the renaissance than the industrial revolution."

The prediction, of course, is following to the common misconception of history in which the renaissance was a glorious rebirth of classical high civilization. The truth, really, is that Humanism was born out of Europe's greatest mass mortality where a half to two thirds of the population of the cities died off in repeated waves of bubonic plague. It was an absolutely terrible moment, and I think most people would greatly prefer to live even in the early industrialized era.

I'm not going to twist his words any further along this "well achsyhually," line, and I fully understand that he is vaguely trying to say that AI will liberate people into some fantasy renn-faire rather than put them into an Upton Sinclair industrial nightmare. But my true purpose is to treat Altman's ignorance as a symptom of a truly despicable trend in Silicon Valley and among programmers in general. Dunning-Kruger discourse is very overplayed and something I almost never invoke, but in the case of software engineers crossing into the humanities, it's far too applicable.

It is so tempting to take one's limited knowledge of History, apply some logical system, and make conclusions about trends of the past or the future. It's considered total common sense that humanity is on an upwards climb towards greater knowledge and understanding. However, the actual story is much more complicated, and the common narrative of progress, what's called Whiggish history, is not what happened to our humanity. In fact, at the beginning of the modern era, the 1500s, the changes in play provoked persecutions, religious wars, witchcraft crazes, heresy inquisitions, and the continuous growth of state power in a process which reached a crescendo in the legendary wars and mass murders of the 20th century. Indeed, if I presumed Altman had a college-level understanding of European history, I would take his xeet to be more of a threat than a promise of better things to come. But frankly, he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about.

In any truly broad view of history we are living in the darkest of dark ages. The central values of this era are largely those of biological competition and survival, and to be quite frank, we are generally an ethically and morally misaligned species and behave, both as individuals and as nations, in a way that people of the past would find despicably cruel. If there is an "alignment problem," it originates with modernity. The fact that our standard of living is quite high and scarcity is so low only underlines the utter madness in the absurd, childish behavior of last century.

Over the decades after the World Wars, the process of escalating violence and persecution may have cooled off somewhat, at least in Imperial heartlands, and of course had we not reached some kind of truce our civilization would have surely been set back to an early industrial stage. And in the wider picture, over the past five centuries, the violence and persecution has steadily risen rather than fallen, and this recent cool-off due to mutually assured destruction has not even endured for a single lifetime. The last surviving child of an American slave died only a few years ago, and yet we like to consider so many things as passed when, really, it is only the blink of an eye between us and Hiroshima.

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in the case of software engineers crossing into the humanities, it's far too applicable.

They do it in science and technology too. You're constantly seeing "My first-order, 101-level understanding of some-gigantic-field allows me to confidently say that something-actual-experts-know-is-really-hard is trivial".

Less Wrong is pretty prone to it, because you get people thinking that Pure Logic can take them further than it actually can, and reasoning from incomplete models.

[-]kilgoar-1-2

Platonism is the first sin of Rationalist discourse. The idea that logic has a direct connection with reality only makes a computer programmer into an instant master of all disciplines. If we accept the more conventional philosophy of Formalism where logic has a much more vague and obscure correspondence to reality, the study of logic becomes just any other field.

behave, both as individuals and as nations, in a way that people of the past would find despicably cruel

Please educate me more, don't merely throw hints like this! Should we burn some cats for fun as an antidote to our general decadence, or did you have other specific things in mind?

[-]jbash7-1

Some hypothetical past person's not being able to recognize their despicable cruelty doesn't preclude their being able to recognize your despicable cruelty. Even given relatively compatible values, everybody gets their own special set of blind spots.

I do agree that romanticizing the past to vilify the present is wrong, though. And not good scholarship if you don't bring a lot of evidence along with you. The idea that modernity is "the problem" is badly suspect. So is the idea that "the central values of this era are largely those of biological competition and survival" and that's somehow different from the past. The past has a whole lot of this group slaughtering that group and justifying it with "survival" arguments... assuming that they bothered to justify it at all. Sometimes it seems to have been just viewed as the natural order of things. Nothing new there.

It reminds me of random affluent white college students trying to address some ancestral guilt about colonial abuses by making the people who got colonized into Morally Superior Beings... which is not only wrong, but itself dehumanizes them and reduces them to props in a rhetorical play.

[-]kilgoar-3-8

You are making a mistake of extreme naivete by presuming that people of the past reasoned in the way that we do. In fact, the mass slaughter of civilians as a strategy to win a war is a defining feature for modern warfare, in stark contrast with a relatively far more innocent past. Battles were most often not fought at all, and sieges often resolved without bloodshed. The farther we go back the more ritualistic warfare tends to be. In the anthropological setting warfare is much more about display and the definition of boundaries, and obviously the very concept of survival of the fittest is one that does not even come into play until the 18th and 19th centuries

Looking at historical documents, it seems to me that "kill everyone who resists, and install a puppet government" (the Western countries recently) is an improvement over "kill everyone who resists, and make the survivors learn your language and your version of history" (Russia today, and the Western countries a century or more ago) which is an improvement over ""kill everyone who resists, sell everyone else as a slave" (e.g. the ancient Greek city states) which was an improvement over "kill everyone, except for a few young women whom you decide to keep as sex slaves after you raped them" (the Old Testament, and probably everyone before them).

obviously the very concept of survival of the fittest is one that does not even come into play until the 18th and 19th centuries

The theory is new. But the practice... was already practiced by chimpanzees.

[-]kilgoar-1-2

These vast sweeping claims you're making are not original thoughts that you've gotten from firsthand sources, but rather they are from 18th and 19th century historians. That is, the narrative of gradual improvement over time in what's called Whiggish history. It's very popular among non-historians or amateur historians but 20th century historians were very critical of this view. Experts in the field, the people who are making a career of "looking at historical documents," have largely flipped on this view.

Herbert Butterfield wrote a famous takedown, The Whig Interpretation of History (1931). P. B. M. Blaas felt the style had already passed by 1914, in his seminal work on historiography, Continuity and Anachronism (1978). His term for your idea that people in the past acted on the concept of survival of the fittest before its conceptualization is called Presentism, a form of anachronism, and it's the biggest stumbling block for understanding the people of the past.

David Cannadine, the Dodge Professor of History at Princeton said, "Whig history was, in short, an extremely biased view of the past: eager to hand out moral judgements, and distorted by teleology, anachronism and present-mindedness."

Frederic William Maitland is widely considered the first of a new breed of historians. The answer to Whiggish history was in fact utilizing more data than ever. For him, that meant actually reading as much of English law as possible and understanding it in its own terms, rather than treating it as a more vague process inevitably leading to the present. Contrary to your claim, the firsthand sources in fact shattered Whiggish pretensions.

I'm trying to very politely tell y'all in this thread that this crap is the Newtonian Physics of history. Sure, Edward Gibbon and other ye olde history is a decent starting point, but if that's all you have you're pretty much out of touch with the field.

Does a bacterium "practice survival of the fittest" in a way that matches the expressly Darwinist ideology of Hitler? Of course not. And neither does a Chimp.

Not sure if your point is that you disagree with my description of war in ancient Greece and the Old Testament, or that you think I cherry-picked convenient examples in trend that goes overwhelmingly in the opposite direction, or you are ignoring the data points completely and your argument is merely "what you said pattern-matches a political tribe X, now here are some books written by a tribe Y".

Those hardly count as cherrypicked examples when they're so incredibly vague. You did not name a single historian, Greek city state, solitary event, or personality from history which could be counted as an example supporting any thesis. These are only vague mischaracterizations and not data points. I have explained to you in great detail how Whiggish history was and is a politically-interested style of writing history that has gone out of fashion for nearly all experts in the field. There are plenty of tribal controversies in the interpretation of history, but this isn't really one that historians currently care too much about at all.

Siege of Melos: Athens demanded a tribute, Melos refused to pay, the Athenians executed the men of fighting age and sold the women and children into slavery. They then settled 500 of their own colonists on the island.

Battle of Plataea: After the battle of Plataea, the city [Caryae] was captured by the allied Greeks, the city's men were executed and the women were enslaved.

Miletus: Persians under Darius the Great punished Miletus for rebellion by selling all of the women and children into slavery, killing the men, and expelling all of the young men as eunuchs, thereby assuring that no Miletus citizen would ever be born again.

Battle of Thebes: Thirty thousand were sold into slavery and six thousand slain in the final fighting. The city was burnt to the ground, sparing only the temples, the Cadmae citadel and the house of Pindar, out of gratitude for Pindar's verses praising Alexander's ancestor, Alexander I of Macedon.

So, I see you've been looking into Wikipedia and beginning some interest in history. I'm glad you've taken some of your first steps into a deeper understanding of the topic. There are a few warnings, though. When we see numbers in ancient texts such as Plutarch's reference to "thirty thousand," these need to be framed with extreme caution and understanding that ancients simply did not keep accurate records, such as birth certificates, and what evidence we do have shows the numbers to be always exaggerated. We must consider also that Thucydides' history is colored by a critical bias against Athens, with his overarching narrative presented in the Peloponnesian War. All of the speeches and quotations given in Thucydides are meant to create an impression, and are misrepresented when interpreted as if they were a journalistic source.

Now, it's good to hold these ancient atrocities in one hand, but they are not themselves showing a more cruel world of the past. We must compare them with the modern wars if they are to give us some meaningful contrast. Let's take World War 1, for example. We are just going to breeze by each battle and give a death count.

The battle of the Marne, over 500,000 died. 700,000 in the battle of Verdun. Over a million in the first battle of the Somme. 800,000 some in the second battle of the Somme. Kolubara, around half a million. Gallipoli, another half million. Galicia, over 600,000. Third battle of Ypres, exceeding 800,000. A million and a half in the Spring Offensive. Around 1.8 million in the Hundred Days Offensive. 2.3 million in the Busliov Offensive. Estimates have around 16.5 million soldiers as casualties of the first world war.

World War 2 saw some decline in military casualties but also the tragic and steep increase in civilian casualties, with somewhere around 40 million dying as a result of the war. This is due in large part to citizens becoming valid military targets, something that was only hinted at in the first world war. Curtis LeMay, the American commander who organized the systematic firebombing of Japanese civilians said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals."

Now perhaps this brutal form of war is more kind, you are thinking, because there is no capture or sale of enemy soldiers or citizens as slaves, but I think that is utterly facile and mistaken. The Geneva conventions explicitly allow compelling prisoners of war to labor, so long as they aren't officers. The US and Soviets forced German prisoners of war into labor. The Germans captured and enslaved the people of Europe on a scale that was unprecedented in history, with fifteen million people enslaved. 

Last century is often called the "Age of Genocide" and we can make a list here, too. The Armenians of Turkey, Jewish people of Germany, Bosnians, Mayans of Guatemala, Tutsis of Rwanda, the earlier examples of Tasmania's complete genocide, the genocide of Native Americans, all represent a rising global trend that is very decidedly current and recent, with genocide by no means a universal feature that is continuous through history.

There are currently around two million people in the American prison system, of these around 800,000 do everyday labor like the rest of us, paid in rates best measured by pennies per hour. The trend of mass incarceration in the US is one that has massively increased over the past generation.

With a less biased view of the last century, as well as the present, it is clear that these events of the past were not "terrifically violent" by the standards of the modern era.

This feels like debating a holocaust denier. We are moving from "it did not happen at all" to "maybe it wasn't six million Jews but only five million". ("You did not name a single historian, Greek city state, solitary event, or personality from history" -> "ancients simply did not keep accurate records ... what evidence we do have shows the numbers to be always exaggerated")

The argument by inaccurate records goes both ways. If there is a genocide today, we probably know about it, and someone at least makes a note in Wikipedia. In the past, ethnic groups could be erased with no one (other than the people involved in the war) noticing. The fact that the list of known genocides in 20th century is longer than the list of known genocides in e.g. 12th century is mostly because of better bookkeeping.

And yet, despite choosing a century randomly (if I tried on purpose, I could have chosen e.g. the 13th century with Albigenian Crusade as a good example), Wikipedia mentions "Massacre of the Latins" with about 60 000 dead in the 12th century. In a world where the population was not even 1/10 of what it is today, so relatively comparable with the numbers that you have mentioned. And we have no idea about what massacres might have happened in 12th century Africa.

So yes, today we have more victims in absolute numbers, but that's because we have larger populations and stronger weapons. When you have to kill your enemies using a hand axe, I guess you get quite tired after chopping off dozen heads. With a nuke, you just press a button and thousands die. And yet, despite the other side having nukes, most Japanese survived WW2. (Which is something they totally did not expect, given their usual behavior towards defeated enemies.) The people in the past were as efficient at killing their enemies with swords, as we are with the weapons of mass destruction today.

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." (1 Samuel 15:3) Tell me again how civilians were not considered valid targets in the past.

You mention compelling prisoners of war to labor, as an analogy to slavery. Yeah, but that was an exception during the war. (Except for the Soviets, who conveniently kept many of the prisoners of war long after the war was over.) Now compare to a situation thousand years ago, when the slave trade was a crucial part of European economy, comparable to oil trade today. The reason entire countries converted to Christianity was to stop the unending slave raids from their neighbors. (Christians had a taboo against enslaving each other. So did Muslims. Both of them considered it okay to enslave each other, and the pagans.) Or consider Africa: the first black slaves brought to America were legally bought in Africa from the local African slave traders. Americans did not invent slavery; they just provided a huge new market for it.

Sorry, I think it is you who needs to learn history. Yes, humans suck today; the "Noble Savages" were not any better, probably much worse.

This is not some "Noble Savage" view, as the Greeks were indeed an example of relative high civilization compared to their contemporaries, and I have applied none of the typical virtues that are associated with such a narrative. The Noble Savage trope is largely praising the imagined warlike and masculine qualities of populations that are seen as less civilized. The Noble Savage is innocent only of the effeminate quality of civilization.

This talk about efficiency might lead somewhere fruitful, even if your argument is confused and pointless: We just have stronger weapons / swords and nukes are equally efficient. I have no idea what you even mean, but let's think about this more. A nuclear bomb is in fact far less efficient than a sword as it requires vast amounts of industrial development, mining, and energy to create and deliver with any effect. The same can be said about a rifle, it requires far more energy and labor to manufacture than a machete, and requires a constant supply of ammunition to function. The immediate conclusion upon a moment reflecting on the efficiency of weaponry is that we're investing much more energy into increasingly less efficient weapon systems, as if it is a race to spend more and more resources to gain tactical advantage. That is, kill at increasing distances. Look at the current conflict in Ukraine. The largest proportion of infantry kills are taking place by remote controlled suicide drone, something that is wildly inefficient. A lot of these drones are now even being controlled via fiber optics to prevent signal jamming, and so you see the trees in no man's land just draped with miles and miles of wasted fiber optics.

If what you claim is indeed true, and warfare is always equally brutal across all eras (or this parallel view, that the past was indeed more brutal), then the added inefficiency of modern weaponry seems to show that in terms of wealth and resources, we are nonetheless committing more resources than ever to weaponry. I cannot think of a single ancient empire which stockpiled weapons and bombs with even a fraction of the commitment of modern nation states.

The only problem with this "gotcha" is that most people don't really appreciate just how recent of a phenomenon witch crazes are. It is by and large constrained to the early modern period falling between the 16th and 18th century. However, the tendency of early modern people for scapegoating and blame does not end there and we see a fair continuity into the recent era, with most mentions of cat burning happening in the 19th century. The early industrial era is where we see a heyday of pogroms against Jewish populations in Europe, and by the time we are seeing high industrialization in the 20th century the elimination of scapegoats is now carried out as a biological imperative justified by science.

The two conclusions that are inescapable is that science and rationality may have forestalled persecutions based on superstitious nonsense, but it was also easily turned into an instrument of persecution. And the second conclusion is that the recent past centuries show increasing, rather than decreasing persecutions.

From Wikipedia:

In 331 BC, a deadly epidemic hit Rome and at least 170 women were executed for causing it by veneficium.[18] In 184–180 BC, another epidemic hit Italy, and about 5,000 people were brought to trial and executed for veneficium.[17] If the reports are accurate, writes Hutton, "then the Republican Romans hunted witches on a scale unknown anywhere else in the ancient world".[17]

... and anyway it's not very convincing to single out witch hunting among all the other things people have always done, because people have always been shitty. Including, but by no means limited to, massive amounts of "scapegoating and blame".

The ancient past was terrifically violent.

[-]kilgoar-3-2

The argument that "people have always been shitty" is ignorant equivocating that tells me you think there is nothing to gain from the topic, because if people do not change then History is a worthless project. What very little we know about ancient witch hunting in Rome is utterly irrelevant to the easily illustrated current trend of increasing shittiness.

[-]Viliam*1-1

The point is exactly that the shittiness seems decreasing on the historical scale, albeit very slowly.

Compare e.g. Moses and Hitler. Both of them became famous for being leaders who demonized their enemies and tried to exterminate them to the last one. Yet the latter is considered the archetype of evil, because he did the thing during the 20th century, when we expected people to do better. The former is considered a holy man by multiple religions, and his violent actions are not considered a stain on his character, because "back then, everyone was like that".

The argument here is incredibly unconvincing and utterly puzzling. Moses is a mythological figure

"Childish" is the word I also keep coming back to, but hesitate to use, for fear of insulting children by comparing them to people like Sam Altman and Elon Musk.

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