The only extremely weird thing at the solstice was the constantly screaming and crying child that interrupted half of the presentations and was never taken outside of the building. It honestly ruined the entire celebration for me and made the whole thing extremely disappointing as an event I flew all the way into San Francisco to attend.
The kid was Katie's kid. The difference is that I can name and shame because although I am in literally Australia I heard feedback that Katie's attitude of "not interfering" towards her kid was problematic for other people's experience of the solstice.
I have also been made aware that no one is willing to talk to Katie because they will be hit by a raging onslaught of ridiculous and insane behaviour. That's fine, I'd rather have people come to Australia and tell me off for naming and shaming than to remain silent when I know information.
In future I hope that all people are agenty enough to tell a kid to shut up, and also to praise a kid who is well behaved (and their parent's training).
It is taken that you would support kids that are well behaved at an event but this kid was exceptionally misbehaved. I consider this the common public opinion.
And yes the kid was literally running around shouting. (Feedback that made it to Australia)
I think it is important to be able to voice concerns like this, even in the face of social pressure. I also think this was more confrontational than it needed to be - I think you could have factually described things without adding adjectives like "ridiculous" and "insane."
Possibly relevant point: I believe there was a quiet room and Katie took Andromeda to the quiet room, but the room was not as soundproofed as they thought it was and she could still be heard.
(I am another person who considers the tone this is being brought up in to be highly unkind.)
I think that Merlin and Alicorn should be praised for Merlin's good behavior. :)
I was happy with the Berkeley event overall.
Next year, I suspect that it would be easier for someone to talk to the guardian of a misbehaving child if there was a person specifically tasked to do so. This could be one of the main event organizers, or perhaps someone directly designated by them. Diffusion of responsibility is a strong force.
The bad child rearing is one part of it. This child will likely learn the hard way in the playground or in young adulthood what constitutes acceptable behavior. This is often a painful process that could have been avoided.
The other part is the fact that this family is producing unacceptable behavior now and it needs to be dealt with and to stop. If people remain silent things degenerate and people silently stop going because it is so painful. This is just being adults and having standards of what you will put up with. Normal adult assertiveness. It is not .
Complaining about people who cause problems is an undersupplied public service in our community. I appreciate Elo's willingness to overcome the bystander effect. At the same time, gossiping about people on the internet should only be done with great care.
My understanding is, in the relationship between Katie and Andromeda, Andromeda wears the pants. And letting Andromeda wear the pants sucks up time and energy. Using rich person parenting styles has costs if you're poor.
I'm generally sympathetic to parents who complain about unsolicited childrearing advice. But lots of people in the community have been helping Katie with Andromeda. This is admirable, and I think if these people have a hand in supporting a child, they deserve a voice in how it is raised.
between Katie and Andromeda, Andromeda wears the pants.
I believe that Katie's choices as to how to raise a human are her own. Right up until it starts influencing others.
Just like I would publicly berate people who won't vaccinate their children, I would publicly name and shame someone for failing to take actions that are respectful of the other people at the event. (especially in times when it is within your control to do so)
Sure there are days when you still have to go to the DMV even though you have kids in tow and you have to somehow navigate public. Such is life. This is not one of those days. The solstice is an event that is optional in attendance. (even for the religiously inclined, other religious groups find ways to solve this problem)
unsolicited childrearing advice.
Absolutely. I won't tell Katie how to raise I child, but I will clearly say, you have a responsibility to control your kid at times when they are causing trouble to others. How that is done is up to you.
If a kid is too young to understand (for example to be respectful of others) then you are to take actions that cause the correctly fair experience, as a burden on yourself to take action. for example, taking the kid into another room (as many have mentioned) so that the kid is no longer disrupting others.
My understanding is, in the relationship between Katie and Andromeda, Andromeda wears the pants.
I think "wears the pants" is a phrase that really needs to die. It embodies multiple different outdated, silly and/or potentially offensive assumptions.
For context, calling her out specifically is extremely rare, people try to be very diplomatic, and there is definitely a major communcation failure Elo is trying to address.
I could be more diplomatic. But I'd still have to name katie for the sake of sparing Alicorn the confusion about her own child-raising.
At this point the motivation of "feeling awful" is being made to encourage her to improve her child-managing skills. She can be defensive about it, but no amount of defensiveness can apologise for her bad form which offended a great number of people (I have to wonder how many people have not posted on the thread, once voice of dissent is probably equal to at least 10 silent participants with the same opinion)
I attended in the Bay last year and also had a bad time because of the screaming child. Thanks for being willing to complain about this in the face of social pressure not to.
There were two children and one of them was mine; I'd like to be well-calibrated about how much fussing is bothersome to others, do you happen to know which child was the one who annoyed you?
The young child who ran through the entire area multiple times during the performance, was talking very loudly in multiple presentations (including through half of Ben Hoffman's speech), threw at least two tantrums, was taken to the back for a while but was still in an area that was fully audible to people in the presentation hall, and was later taken to the upper deck while still making plenty of noise up there.
I saw an infant taken outside of the presentation once but barely noticed any noise from that child at all. I'm glad to see families at events and am fully willing to attend alongside slightly fussy children who make some noise, but the one running around constantly and talking louder than the presentation was bizarrely far past that point.
The fact that you were even interested in asking this question makes me strongly suspect it was not your child.
Not your child. As a definitive opinion from someone who wasn't there.
The kid was Katie's kid. The difference is that I can name and shame because although I am literally in Australia around the world, I heard feedback that Katie's attitude of "not interfering" towards her kid was problematic for other people's experience of the solstice.
While I think it's fine to call someone out by name if nothing else is working, I think the way you're doing it is unnecessarily antagonistic and seemingly intentionally spiteful or at least utterly un-empathetic, and what you're doing can (and in my opinion ought to) be done empathetically, for cohesion and not hurting people excessively and whatnot.
Giving an excuse about why it's okay that you, specifically, are doing it, and declaring that you're "naming and shaming" on purpose, makes it worse. It's already shaming the person without saying that you're very aware that it is; you ought to be taking a "I'm sorry I have to do this" tone instead of a "I'm immune to repercussions, so I'm gonna make sure this stings extra!" tone.
At least, this is how it would work in the several relatively typical (American) social groups that I'm familiar with.
As a further data point, I noticed Merlin fussing (during the second half, I think), but only because I was sitting about 20 feet away. It wasn't bothersome.
At the New York Solstice, we tried an experiment that got overall positive feedback this year, to address both children and "people who don't like the dark section of the night where it gets sad."
We divided the event into two sections, with a roughly 10 minute intermission (the intermission went longer for practical reasons - there were too many people who needed to use too few bathrooms). The first half was explicitly and completely childfriendly. The second half was "explicitly sacred, sad and dark", which would give parents judgment over whether it was appropriate for their kids, with an understanding that if their kid is making noise, they should take them to outside for a bit.
As it turns out we only had one 3 year old who was pretty well behaved (might have been taken out of the room on occasion by her grandmother, I wasn't sure).
I asked people what they thought about the intermission afterwards on the anonymous feedback form, and answers have mostly ranged from "great!" to "eh, I wish it wasn't necessary but it was - I wouldn't have thought to get water if it wasn't there."
I like having a community that supports children, but at the same time let's not close our eyes to the truth. If there actually is a child screaming throughout Solstice and running around rampant it will, in fact, ruin the experience. I don't know what the Bay Solstice was like, so I don't know if this was really the case or if it's an exaggeration.
From what I've seen, it's not rare at all. I count... myself and at least 7 other people who've expressed the sentiment in private across both this year and last year (it happened last year too). It is, however, something that is very difficult for people to speak up about. I think what's going on is that different people care about differing portious of the solstice (community, message, aesthetics, etc) to surprisingly differing degrees, may have sensory sensitivites or difficulty with multiple audio input streams, and may or may not find children positive to be around in principle. I think this community has far more people for whom noisy children destroy the experience than the base rate of other communities.
From what I've observed, the degree to which children ruin events for certain people is almost completely lost on many others. It's difficult to speak up largely because of sentiments like yours, which make it feel like people will think that I'm going against the idea of the community. For me, and I don't think I'm exceptionally sensitive, I think it removes between a third and half of the value of going to the event.
When I still went to church, there was sometimes a "children's service" that went in parallel to the church service. Young kids who couldn't sit still and their parents were strongly encouraged to go to that one instead. It was a small room far enough away, with the pastor's wife, and I presume they were singing and nursing and changing diapers.
When a little child attended the Leipzig Solstice two years ago, that's basically what we did. She and her parents had their own room for themselves where they could go when she became tired and fussy. That room wasn't really far enough away, though. But she was mostly quite happy with the Solstice and made us feel awesome for having her there. So I say children, when properly managed, are a clear boon to a Solstice.
While I understand that some people may feel this way, I very much hope that this sentiment is rare.
There are two sentiments here, that I think should both be common:
Children are welcome at community gatherings.
There are times when children should be quiet or absent.
Raemon's solution is a good one here, as is a norm of parents removing children when they get especially loud. (At this event that may have been less practical than normal, given that it was about 40°F outside, but may have been solved by having a designated children's room or something.)
I agree with you that having community events be family events is a very good idea and am also fully against the idea of banning children. Nevertheless, there is a big difference between some children making some noise during an event and a single child consistently talking and throwing fits interrupting half of the entire presentation while their parents don't remove from hearing range.
Replied above. There's a strong chilling effect on bringing up that you don't want children at events.
I don't normally mind children (if they are taken outside once they begin screaming loudly) and don't have strong sensory issues. I grew up in environments with plenty of children around, typically regarded most of their noise as more amusing than the people around me seemed to, and rarely minded them making noise since people were polite enough to take them outside if they were throwing a full tantrum. I typically expect this response from parents. Are cultural norms normally different in that regard in California?
I was sitting at the circular tables in the back half of the building. If you were in the front areas near the speakers then I would expect your experience to have been much better. For instance, if you could hear any of the first half of Ben Hoffman's speech then your experience was certainly far different from mine.
I was sitting quite near the front (second row) and the disruption was enough to make me want to leave the event. I could not hear much of Ben Hoffman's speech at all, despite him being about 30 feet from me making it, and the child was taken upstairs and then ran up and down the balcony creating thumping noise that overpowered the speeches and songs. The interruption during Brienne's speech was the most heartbreaking. This was not comments or funny, this was yelling and screaming, and then not being removed.
The child was then taken to the afterparty,with dozens of drinking, carousing adults, after midnight. The whole thing with this kid ruined much of solstice for me (for personal reasons as well, because the child was an individual source of stress in her barely mitigated behavior toward me), and I adore children. I have been a teacher, a nanny, a counselor, and I hope to be a parent. I will not keep a child of mine who is fussing in an event where said fussing ruins the experience for others. We traveled to the Bay to attend Solstice, and I was extremely disappointed.
Extremely unlikely that people exist that aren't weirded out by Solstices in general but one song lyric is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
The recent East Bay solstice was my first one. (I'm not usually enthusiastic about rituals or very large social events where I don't know many people--but I do enjoy singing with friendly people, so I came as part of the choir.)
I was pleasantly surprised by how not odd it was. It felt quite a lot like other ritual-type events I've gone to--church services, memorial events, formulaic holiday celebrations, etc.: much reinforcing of common themes for the group and reference to shared values and oft-repeated material. It was not as in-groupy as I expected--I could have imagined taking a friend who was not part of the community and not needing to explain much about it; it was mostly appealing to the broadest part of the community rather than deep insider references. (And here I realize I still count myself as in the community even though my recent involvement is mostly passive!)
I also appreciated the group activity of writing down meaningful encouragements and posting them on the wall: it gave a sense of who was in the room and the chance to show the best parts of themselves--and something easily visible to make conversation with strangers about during breaks. It did remind me of the sort of activity you might do at a company retreat, but the better kind! I wouldn't mind seeing that repeated.
I wonder what part of these worries is really about "weirdness points", and what part is related to the "status-regulating emotions".
I mean, maybe it's not just "we are needlessly weird, which could make people stop taking us seriously", but also "having songs that take our beliefs as normal is a bit higher-status than we can afford... someone is going to punch us just to make sure we know our place and don't disrupt the social order".
Things that persistently work for me at Solstice:
And my impression is that people are only really weirded out by these songs on behalf of other people who are only weirded out by them on behalf of other people.
Coincidentally, I was thinking today about whether people upvote some LW articles because they felt really useful for them, or just because they believe they could be useful for other people. Another instance of a similar problem.
(Specifically, I was considering writing an article explaining some more or less high-school math. Because... well, people have random blind spots, so maybe this could ...
In-jokes (and in-not-jokes) can signal both inclusion and exclusion; there's a difference between "you won't get this, you're not part of our group," and "you don't get this? Let us show it to you." Relevant XKCD.
In my own experience, people don't mind in-jokes as long as they feel like you're letting them in on the joke.
Comparative solsticeology: I helped organize the Seattle Solstice, and also attended the Bay Solstice. Both were really nice. A couple major observations:
The Seattle Solstice (also, I think, the New York one) had a really clear light-dark-light progression throughout the presentations, the Bay one didn't - it seemed like each speech or song was its own small narrative arc, and there wasn't an over-arching one.
Seattle's was also in a small venue where there were chairs, but most people sat on cushions of various size on the floors, and were quite close to ...
I asked this in the open thread, but maybe it's more likely to be noticed here: Are the solstice events recorded and/or streamed? I've wanted to go but I'm too far away.
I really enjoyed the main East Bay solstice! Thanks to everyone who put it on.
I found it slightly off-putting that one of the performers seemed to take lots of joy in using lyrics different from those displayed on the screen. I can definitely see how this might be an honest error, but that's not how my gut felt. I felt like I (and the other audience members) were being very implicitly made fun of by not being allowed to know what lyrics would come next during the sing-along. I suspect that this sort of status game is negative sum, since lots of audience me...
Do people think that the singing of The Star-Spangled Banner at baseball games here in the US represents inappropriate ingroupiness? How about buying a sweater with my university's logo and cheering for their team at a football game?
It seems to me that ingroupiness has both costs and benefits. Ingroupiness facilitates the creation of group-wide public goods, promotes within-group cooperation, improves collective decisionmaking, makes it easier to accomplish large projects, satisfies the human need for community, etc. I wish there was a little more awareness that this is not a one-sided tradeoff.
And my impression is that people are only really weirded out by these songs on behalf of other people who are only weirded out by them on behalf of other people.
Be careful, though. How much of that is really "only weirded out on behalf of other people", and how much of it is "weirded out themselves, but think it would be more socially acceptable to claim to be weirded out on behalf of other people"? After all, being weirded out yourself may signal that you don't want to be part of the group. Being offended "on behalf of other people" is a way to express your offense while trying not to signal the wrong thing.
It seems like you shouldn't worry about songs that are getting a good reception potentially offending someone. Bad songs will bomb. Good songs will stick around.
Censors are canny. They figured out a long time ago that "Don't you dare free speech in that way because I order you not to!" wasn't a winner. So we moved onto "Don't you dare free speech in that way because it harms me in an unverifiable way", and then to "Don't you dare free speech in that way because it may at some point potentially harm someone, possibly".
Coun...
Common knowledge is important. So I wanted to note:
Every year on Solstice feedback forms, I get concerns about songs like "The X days of X-Risk" or "When I Die" (featuring lines including 'they may freeze my body when I die'), that they are too weird and ingroupy and offputting to people who aren't super-nerdy-transhumanists
But I also get comments from people who know little about X-risk or cryonics or whatever who say "these songs are hilarious and awesome." Sunday Assemblies who have no connection to Less Wrong sing When I Die and it's a crowd favorite every year.
And my impression is that people are only really weirded out by these songs on behalf of other people who are only weirded out by them on behalf of other people. There might be a couple people who are genuinely offput the ideas but if so it's not super clear to me. I take very seriously the notion of making Solstice inclusive while retaining it's "soul", talk to lots of people about what they find alienating or weird, and try to create something that can resonate with as many people as possible.
So I want it to at least be clear: if you are personally actually offput by those songs for your own sake, that makes sense and I want to know about it, but if you're just worried about other people, I'm pretty confident you don't need to be. The songs are designed so you don't need to take them seriously if you don't want to.
-
Random note 1: I think the only line that's raised concern from some non-LW-ish people for When I Die is "I'd prefer to never die at all", and that's because it's literally putting words in people's mouths which aren't true for everyone. I mentioned that to Glen. We'll see if he can think of anything else
Random note 2: Reactions to more serious songs like "Five Thousand Years" seem generally positive among non-transhumanists, although sometimes slightly confused. The new transhumanist-ish song this year, Endless Light, has gotten overall good reviews.