I am female, and (to a large extent) my experience agrees with Submitter E's. I'm glad to see this posted here, because after reading the other LW and Women posts, I had begun to suspect that I was a complete outlier, and that I couldn't use my own experiences as a reference point for other women's at all.
This relates to something I've been concerned about in regards to social justice discussions-- the discussions actively discourage people from saying that they aren't being hurt even though they're in a group which (probably) gets hurt more than the other group on the same axis.
While I can see discouraging people from saying "I'm not getting hurt, therefore getting hurt almost never happens/doesn't matter", leaving out single data points about not getting hurt leads to another version of not knowing what's going on.
I found the anonymity-inducing paragraph interesting for a number of reasons. The submitter asserts that she's not like most girls, but then goes on to list a bunch of things, half of which, in my experience, most girls, including most self-described feminists, would also say about themselves. She likes looking pretty, and getting better at sex -- shocking! Within the bedroom, I also suspect a plurality of women are at least somewhat submissive.
Regarding "get in the kitchen!" -- submitter seems to be making an implicit connotative jump, because she likes cooking, to take it as if the sentence were simply equivalent to "Go do your favorite thing!" But that's not the connotation that is usually there. The people saying something like that usually mean it more like "Go do this thing whether or not you like doing it all, because it's too low status for males to bother themselves with it." That may not be the intended connotation of everyone who says it, but it doesn't take that many bad apples in the barrel to get people pattern-matching, so this is what more feminism-inclined people hear when they hear "Get in the kitchen," and that's w...
Regarding wolf-whistles and such, it seems like in an ideal world, we'd invent a new obvious signal, like a red bracelet or something, that explicitly showed that a woman enjoyed this sort attention.
If some women set themselves apart in this way with an unambiguous signal, I think they'd attract negative attention from people who disapprove of their attitudes.
It's possible they'd be at increased risk from sexually predatory men, but I think it's even more likely they'd be stigmatized by other women who take it upon themselves to enforce social norms.
I realize that there are fields in which men seem to perform better. But I had thought this was usually attributed to differences in brain architecture, not hormones.
Brain architecture is significantly influenced by hormones during the gestation period.
Regarding "get in the kitchen!" -- submitter seems to be making an implicit connotative jump, because she likes cooking, to take it as if the sentence were simply equivalent to "Go do your favorite thing!" But that's not the connotation that is usually there. The people saying something like that usually mean it more like "Go do this thing whether or not you like doing it all, because it's too low status for males to bother themselves with it."
Also of "you ought to be feeding us because you're not important/competent enough to otherwise contribute"
Most women (I have met) prefer to have the man ask them out; this is submissive behavior.
This is not obvious to me. That makes sense if you think of it as hunter and pursued; you could alternatively view it as supplicant and bestower of favor.
I have no idea. Nor can I think of a good way to test this, since neither of us seems likely to accept women's self-reporting of the answer as an accurate reflection of what their system 1 is actually doing.
We have a tendency to escalate - if wearing a halter top could mean "it's hot out", some people will take it to mean "I want strangers to hit on me." If you wear a bracelet whose official meaning is "I want strangers to hit on me," some people will assume the wearer wants a step farther than that.
When Emma Goldman published essays in favor of "free love" (sex outside marriage) in 1910, she began to have trouble with men banging on her hotel door in the middle of the night, thinking that this meant she was sexually available to anyone at any time.
So my guess is that people wearing such bracelets would get more wanted attention but also more unwanted attention.
We did. It's called dressing provocatively.
It's just it got ruined when a bunch of people decided to complain about people wolf-whisling those wearing the bracelet.
Alternate hypothesis: Not everyone dressing in the way that you call "dressing provocatively" intends to dress that way with any such goal like that in mind. Large amounts of how people dress are culturally dependent, and many women dress for complicated reasons involving internal signaling to other women, not to men. These are only the most basic issues at hand.
And some people will wear red bracelets because they like the color red, and they like bracelets - or they'll start wearing red bracelets because -other- people wear red bracelets and it's the "in" thing to do (internal signaling to other women). And then other people will wear red bracelets to show solidarity with those who object to being catcalled while wearing red bracelets, and then the whole signaling gig is up.
This is the reason we can't have nice things.
I don't think it's a very disputed fact that women, in general, tend to be more emotional than men.
I thought the present-day standard position among people who have actually thought about the issue rather than just repeating stereotypes is that men don't actually feel less emotions than women -- they just show less emotions, for fear of being seen as feminine.
I am reminded of this column. Summary:
I wish to dispel the notion that women are “more emotional.” I don’t think we are. I think that the emotions women stereotypically express are what men call “emotions,” and the emotions that men typically express are somehow considered by men to be something else.
I thought the present-day standard position among people who have actually thought about the issue...
By 'thought about the issue' do you mean that someone has gathered evidence to this effect? Why do you believe this view to be more accurate than the old stereotype?
This, right here, is my problem with feminism. This person isn't allowed to exist.
I don't think women should be required to be like this. Actually, given that I'm a switch, and tend to be unhappy in one-sided power relationships, I strongly prefer that not all women be like this.
But I also despise the position that women aren't -allowed- to be like this. Look at the response from some of the commenters - this person must obviously be a troll, because nobody is actually like this. Actually, yes, some of them are. Indeed, many, and possibly most. The average woman, in my experience, prefers a submissive role in a relationship.
The author of this comment is -most women I have encountered-. (From here on out, when I say "most", that is what I refer to, so I don't have to keep repeating myself.) Most women enjoy magazines like Cosmo. Most women enjoy dressing up, and are hurt when you would rather they wear sensible shoes than high heels. Most women want to be pretty, want male attention, want to be feminine.
Feminism doesn't stand up for these women. As a movement, taken as a whole, it actively attacks, harasses, and rejects them. There are a few who stand up for ch...
This, right here, is my problem with feminism. This person isn't allowed to exist.
What evidence do you have for this claim and what do you mean by "this person isn't allowed to exist"? It may help to keep in mind also that "feminism" is not a single monolith but a wide variety of different movements. So what form of feminism are you talking about? For example, most forms of Third Wave Feminism wouldn't have a problem with someone choosing this. The primary objection that this sort of thing comes up is thinking that a) all women want this or b) that this is inherent rather than potentially highly cultural c) that there's something wrong with women who don't want this.
The rest of your statement is similarly extremely overgeneralized. It sounds like your idea of feminism is an extreme version of some of the more problematic bits of 2nd Wave feminism which hasn't been prominent for some time.
I want to be able to have sex like a porn star.
Porn stars optimize for "sex" that looks interesting to a watcher, rather than sex that feels good to the participants. I suspect that's not what the anonymous author actually wants.
I sometimes suspect that my own life would be easier in a number of ways if I were female, but I'll note that when I and other people I've known to discuss the question consider the pros and cons, we usually seem to consider by default what it would be like to be an attractive woman. A lot of the ways in which "women have it better" really seem to apply only to women who're particularly good looking.
(Of course, I like to think I would be a good looking woman, but I'm a bit vain as it is.)
But it's just hard to understand other girls being offended when I'm not, because it's much harder to empathise with someone you don't agree with
I think it's less of an opinion disagreement and more of an experience disagreement.
For example - in middle school and high school, I experienced extensive racism at least twice a month, sometimes involving physical violence. I was pretty angry about the whole thing, My race was affecting my life negatively, and I thought that society was deeply, deeply fucked up to harbor these beliefs. I got angry whenever people displayed ignorance.
In college, I experience racism directed at me only about twice a year - and none of it is ever violent. My attitude about race in my current situation maps well with your attitude about gender - I don't think it really affects me negatively, in fact it has a few advantages, and many of the stereotypes actually do apply to me and I won't fault people for making assumptions. If people display ignorance now, I just take it as part of how they were raised - it's not any barrier to friendship.
I've had both experiences, so I can relate to either situation. If I had only had bad experiences, it would be hard fo...
I'm complicated. I don't think my INTJ friends are this complicated
I'm more complicated than I (think I) show to people, and I kind of assume that most people are the same, so I wonder how you'd determine this.
Home Comforts is a book by a woman who is suited to homemaking by temperament and upbringing, but who went to college when women weren't supposed to care about making a pleasing environment to live in.
The first section ("My Secret Life") is about how she decided to come out about homemaking, and how much pressure she was up against.
This is the first of the LW women posts which seemed promising to me after the first paragraph. However why use the myers-briggs? Sure, it is not total bollocks but come on, this is LessWrong.
Eh. I've been known to use the Harry Potter house metaphor occasionally (though not, as best I can recall, here), and I find it attractive mainly because it's a casual and vaguely silly typology on its face: it gives a useful shorthand for stuff like "conviction-driven personality; values justice and courage" or "ambition-driven personality; values winning" without pretending to be anything more than that.
The MBTI's dressed up in more scientific clothes, and if I used it in the same contexts I'd be giving the impression of more rigor than I've actually got -- but it's got too many internal problems for me to use it when I actually need rigor.
Furthermore, I hope that the women of LessWrong do not perceive any downvotes or negative comments as a general dislike for them. I feel that most downvotes and comments are aimed at the content and the execution of the idea not at women as a whole or even the women behind the posts.
The most blatantly racist/sexist/whatever people tend not to be the truly powerful; they tend to be marginal members of privileged groups, seeking scapegoats and any distraction from their marginal status. But everybody is biased in favor of those who they can get along with, those who think similarly, who they can understand and who can understand them. The truly powerful all have that bias, like everyone else. And so people with the same backgrounds as the powerful are more likely to fit in, to benefit from this bias. But some people are just good at fitting in, even without the similarity of background. Such people are likely to underestimate the general influence of privilege. And their existence also makes it easier for members of privileged groups to underestimate their own privilege; they have examples of people from marginal groups who they get along with perfectly well and who seem to do fine to show that they or the system couldn't really be all that biased against such groups.
And, of course, there are people who are no good at fitting in regardless of similarity of background, who aggravate everyone because of poor social skills or whatever. They also don't benefit from the bias in favor of those who fit in, so if they're members of privileged groups they become convinced that privilege is a myth (since it doesn't seem to be helping them) and they become MRAs or white supremicists or whatever.
I've read all the "LW Women" posts now, and I still don't see that anything useful has come from them. The submissions never really add up to more than a series of often contradictory anecdotes. Due to the small number of submissions overall and the obvious selection effects, there is little reason to think of generalizing any kind of lesson from them. Since the posts are anonymous, they aren't even useful for generalizing to one person.
They can still point at certain regions in hypothesis-space that certain people may have never thought of before.
So do these female submissions get some sort of prompt to respond to? Or are they just "Hey, you're a girl! Write whatever!" I'm trying to understand how to read some of these details.
Thanks for the link! It makes it much clearer to me how this project started.
Feel free to discuss any gender-related issues that you find relevant, especially responses to the questions that are posted in the thread below by your fellow LWers. [...] It is ok if they are half-formed, stream-of-consciousness writings.
However, I'm wondering if we would make more progress on gender issues if these submissions were structured essay prompts that requiring more argument or analysis? For example, a weekly (monthly?) gender-related question prompt with compiled responses. I ask because my reaction upon seeing this post was that this person is probably just sorta rambling about themselves, but if they were trying to make a cohesive point, then it would be kind of an unflattering one. Now that I have more reason to think that it's most likely the first option, I'm wondering if there's room for more structured posts.
An example of a gender-related writing prompt might be:
Do you believe that flirting with others is an ethical means of accomplishing non-sexual goals? Please define your terms and provide examples to illustrate your stance.
It's also gender-neutral, so anyone could respond? I guess the examples might be anecdotes that might require anonymity, but then the authors can use analogies instead.
generally girl-game my way into getting what I want. (Charming guys is fun!)
I'm trying to unpack this sentence, I think it means something like this: "I signal sexual availability so that males will offer me favours in exchange, but I have enough plausible deniability so that I don't have to follow through" plus "whenever a male accepts such an exchange, I get a self-esteem boost". I don't know if such an interpretation is generally what other people have in their minds.
...my attractiveness to men depends largely on my looks but the i
I'm trying to unpack this sentence, I think it means something like this: "I signal sexual availability so that males will offer me favours in exchange, but I have enough plausible deniability so that I don't have to follow through" plus "whenever a male accepts such an exchange, I get a self-esteem boost". I don't know if such an interpretation is generally what other people have in their minds.
Just a bit of personal experience / observation / commentary:
Your interpretation is the Evo side of the Evo-Cog boundary. The cognition (adaptation-executer) side of it is that when a young appealing-to-the-target woman "girl-games", it triggers conditions where the targeted man (or men) executes adaptations that survived in human genetics that make him act more friendly and helpful towards the woman, or make him feel valued (which for other reasons explained in a previous post on Dark Arts that I can't find, incites reciprocation by doing things of value to the other person) and therefore already situated in a different type of social interaction where it appears more advantageous (to the subconscious) to cooperate.
Basically, yes to your interpretation in ...
Apropos of everything else, I would just remark that Submitter E should've taken way more care of staying pseudonymous. [Details redacted]
Also, it's a bit disturbing and creepy to see a woman conflating her private sexual and lifestyle preferences with internet quasi-ev-psych and PUA jargon. I've read quite a few good blog posts by women who talk of combining feminist views on society and gender roles with a personal desire for performing traditional femininity and a submissive role in a relationship/BDSM.
This whole matter is hardly a paradox at all; pers...
Regarding PUA jargon...
I'm female and submissive and I've always been attracted to guys about eight years older than me. (When I say "always", I mean since my first serious crush at age 13.) My parents are feminists, they're the same age as each other, and they strongly believe in power equality in relationships. Thus, growing up, I always thought there was something terribly wrong with me.
In college, I learned about PUA and alpha males an all of that. Suddenly, here was an ideological system that treated my desires as natural instead of perverted. I was immediately entranced, and began to read PUA blogs very seriously. I saw a lot of truth in the PUAs' discussions of male-female interactions. From what I could tell, feminism was just another optimistic belief system built on a very common but very rotten foundation: the idea that humans are rational creatures, that our rationality elevates us high above our brutal and bestial forebears. I saw that while we may have intelligence and cunning far exceeding that of our ancestors, we often use that intelligence to serve animal aims - for instance, procreation. I had many supposedly just-friends relationships with g...
From what I could tell, feminism was just another optimistic belief system built on a very common but very rotten foundation: the idea that humans are rational creatures, that our rationality elevates us high above our brutal and bestial forebears.
I believe that at least a large part of feminism was created by women who were unhappy in an environment which didn't suit their personalities and/or made it very easy for men to abuse women.
Suddenly, here was an ideological system that treated my desires as natural instead of perverted.
Revolutions generally come with from an impulse to throw off imposed ideals, but usually end up imposing new ideals. The king is dead. Long live the king.
The desire for freedom is freedom from a constraint, and doesn't allow the naturally coalition building and power accretion of those who would impose constraints.
...I'm not really sure why I'm telling this story.
My guess - you saw the value to yourself of seeing your views not being portrayed as perverted, and took the opportunity to give the same kind of support to others who might feel that way.
If I thought that morals were totally relative and non-disprovable then I'd give up on them altogether and start building a tower-o'-doom.
I very much doubt it. Analogously, theists subscribing to the divine command theory of ethics who end up losing their faith generally don't slaughter everyone they know and assemble a giant blasphemous meat-effigy out of the pieces.
There are actually quite a few female authors in the PUA arena, including wives advocating men adopt some of these techniques on the basis that it improved their own relationship. I don't find it surprising here.
my attractiveness to men depends largely on my looks but the inverse is not true.
I think that looks are less important to women than they are to men, but that doesn't mean that they're unimportant. For instance, the male characters in media aimed at women (eg romance novels) tend to be pretty good looking (as well as being high status).
This was all so reasonable and positively feminine, I repeatedly got the feeling she's yanking our chains (or something else) with a wish fulfillment female.
kind of girl lonely geeks fantasize about.
You mean most of the other lonely male geeks fantasize about this kind of stuff?
My generalizations from one example were way off the mark, I guess. A girl that loves sex I can imagine, but all the rest of that I wouldn't have expected geek males to fantasize about. I would tend to think a SuicideGirl playing MMOs is the supreme ultimate holy grail of epic geek fantasies, according to my mental model.
*[insert stock audio loop of updates and recalibration]*
Great stuff, E, thanks! I suspect there are a lot of not-as-introspective women who would agree with you if they thought about it. Who aren't fighting biology, and in fact are enjoying the hand they are dealt. And a lot of men doing so as well, including not particularly introspective ones.
Assuming the title can't be changed, I'd suggest deleting and reposting this with "privelege" corrected to "privilege".
I found the discussion of INFJ interesting and insightful. This INTP always considered expected INFPs to be the best serious intuitive thinkers, as I consider F a deeper and more intuitive evaluation process compared to T. Being intellectually guided by emotion that is checked by analysis - that's the way toward insight.
Though I'd never considered the power of INFJs before, I should have expected exactly what the submitter displays: an emotional but straightforward attitude toward the world, well regulated by analytical self awareness of those emotional a...
That was... unexpected. If this was anything other than LW, I'd be assigning ~10-30 percent probability to trolling. It... just seems to come too thickly, and with somewhat strange context. That this exact person exists is totally normal. That this exact person would write this doesn't seem that way, because what they would write would probably be boring and this is not.
Are you up to something, Daenarys?
So... a woman who doesn't complain and is optimistic, and is not ashamed to say it online, is suspicious to be a troll? What a strange society do we live in!
By the way, I don't criticize you for writing that; I think you only said loudly what is already present in the atmosphere. If someone says: "Women, tell your opinions!" it is often a code for: "Women, tell your complaints about men!". As if complaining about men was the only legitimate female opinion.
I suspect this atmosphere harms women, because honestly, who would want to be stereotyped as the complaining one? (With all the consequences, such as... if you want a new person in your team, would you want a creative one, or a complaining one? If you have to choose a leader, would you want a responsible one, or a complaining one? Etc.)
That this exact person exists is totally normal. That this exact person would write this doesn't seem that way, because what they would write would probably be boring and this is not.
That's an... odd take on it. I don't think I'd expect gender-conformity to antipredict engaging writing very strongly, if at all, and the life experience the submitter alludes to would positively predict it if I'm reading between the lines at all correctly. And it's being posted on LW, of course, which totally buggers up most conventional demographic analysis.
The submitter is using a pretty assertive and analytical style, which I wouldn't have predicted from the paragraphs on emotionality; the bit about girl-game struck me as particularly unusual. And her ideas do tally well with the conventional wisdom among certain male-dominated metacontrarian subcultures. I might have considered a false flag option of some sort except that she seems to consider hers an exceptional opinion: most of those subcultures wouldn't be satisfied with an existence proof, they'd be trying to frame this as the norm.
I think it's most likely legit. Though I can't rule out a small probability of someone trying to tell LW what it wants to hear for some reason, or to confirm a theory about how such a stance might be received.
(Should the submitter be reading this, please excuse the lack of charity.)
That this exact person exists is totally normal. That this exact person would write this doesn't seem that way, because what they would write would probably be boring and this is not.
I suggest you review your prejudices. A person with the traits indicated (self awareness, well integrated preferences and desires, healthy boundaries, developed but not unbalanced rational thought) is not necessarily (or even usually) boring merely because they happen to like to cook, look pretty and be socially successful.
If anyone still looks back at these posts...
I think that this comment thread illustrates the real issues at stake for women and the real reason feminism needs to exist. Not to mention the real reasons women have little probability of feeling welcome here.
Daenerys' Note: This is the last item in the LW Women series. Thanks to all who participated. :)
Standard Intro
The following section will be at the top of all posts in the LW Women series.
Several months ago, I put out a call for anonymous submissions by the women on LW, with the idea that I would compile them into some kind of post. There is a LOT of material, so I am breaking them down into more manageable-sized themed posts.
Seven women replied, totaling about 18 pages.
Standard Disclaimer- Women have many different viewpoints, and just because I am acting as an intermediary to allow for anonymous communication does NOT mean that I agree with everything that will be posted in this series. (It would be rather impossible to, since there are some posts arguing opposite sides!)
To the submitters- If you would like to respond anonymously to a comment (for example if there is a comment questioning something in your post, and you want to clarify), you can PM your message and I will post it for you. If this happens a lot, I might create a LW_Women sockpuppet account for the submitters to share.
Please do NOT break anonymity, because it lowers the anonymity of the rest of the submitters.
Submitter E
I'm a girl, and by me that's only great.
No seriously. I've grown up and lived in the social circles where female privilege way outweigh male privilege. I've never been sexually assaulted, nor been denied anything because of my gender. I study a male-dominated subject, and most of my friends are polite, deferential feminism-controlled men. I have, however, been able to flirt and sympathise and generally girl-game my way into getting what I want. (Charming guys is fun!) Sure, there will eventually come a point where I'll be disadvantaged in the job market because of my ability to bear children; but I've gotta balance that against the fact that I have the ability to bear children.
In fact, most of the gender problems I personally face stem from biology, so there's not much I can do about them. It sucks that I have to be the one responsible for contraception, and that my attractiveness to men depends largely on my looks but the inverse is not true. But there's not much society can do to change biological facts, so I live with them.
I don't think it's a very disputed fact that women, in general, tend to be more emotional than men. I'm an INFJ, most of my (male) friends are INTJ. With the help of Less Wrong's epistemology and a large pinch of Game, I've achieved a fair degree of luminosity over my inner workings. I'm complicated. I don't think my INTJ friends are this complicated, and the complicatedness is part of the reason why I'm an "F": my intuitions system is useful. It makes me really quite good at people, especially when I can introspect and then apply my conscious to my instincts as well. I don't know how many of the people here are F instead of T, but for anyone who uses intuition a lot, applying proper rationality to introspection (a.k.a. luminosity) is essential. It is so so so easy to rationalise, and it takes effort to just know my instinct without rationalising false reasons for it. I'm not sure the luminosity sequence helps everyone, because everyone works differently, but just being aware of the concept and being on the lookout for ways that work is good.
There's a problem with strong intuition though, and that's that I have less conscious control over my opinions - it's hard enough being aware of them and not rationalising additional reasons for them. I judge ugly women and unsuccessful men. I try to consciously adjust for the effect, but it's hard.
Onto the topic of gender discussions on Less Wrong - it annoys me how quickly things gets irrational. The whole objectification debacle of July 2009 proved that even the best can get caught up in it (though maybe things have got better since 2009?). I was confused in the same way Luke was: I didn't see anything wrong with objectification. I objectify people all the time, but I still treat them as agents when I need to. Porn is great, but it doesn't mean I'm going to find it harder to befriend a porn star. I objectify Eliezer Yukowsky because he's a phenomenon on the internet more than a flesh-and-blood person to me, but that doesn't mean I'd have difficulty interacting with a flesh-and-blood Eliezer. On the whole, Less Wrong doesn't do well at talking about controversial topics, even though we know how to. Maybe we just need to work harder. Maybe we need more luminosity. I would love for Less Wrong to be a place where all things could just be discussed rationally.
There's another reason that I come out on a different side to most women in feminism and gender discussions though, and this is the bit I'm only saying because it's anonymous. I'm not a typical woman. I act, dress and style feminine because I enjoy feeling like a princess. I am most fulfilled when I'm in a M-dom f-sub relationship. My favourite activity is cooking and my honest-to-god favourite place in the house is the kitchen. I take pride in making awesome sandwiches. I just can't alieve it's offensive when I hear "get in the kitchen", because I'd just be like "ok! :D". I love sex, and I value getting better at it. I want to be able to have sex like a porn star. Suppressing my gag reflex is one of the most useful things I learned all year. I love being hit on and seduced by men. When I dress sexy, it is because male attention turns me on. I love getting wolf whistles. Because of luminosity and self-awareness, I'm ever-conscious of the vagina tingle. I'm aware of when I'm turned on, and I don't rationalise it away. And the same testosterone that makes me good at a male-dominated subject, makes sure I'm really easily turned on.
I understand that all these things are different when I'm consenting and I'm viewed as an agent and all that. But it's just hard to understand other girls being offended when I'm not, because it's much harder to empathise with someone you don't agree with. Not generalising from one example is hard.
Understanding other girls is hard.