Hi everyone. Author here. I'll maybe reply in a more granular way later, but to quickly clear up a few things:
-I didn't write the headlines. But of course they're the first thing readers encounter, so I won't expect you to assess my intentions without reference to them. That said, I especially wanted to get readers up to half-speed on a lot of complicated issues, so that we can have a more sophisticated discussion going forward.
-A lot fell out during editing. An outtake that will be posted online Monday concerns "normal startup culture"--in which I went to TechCrunch Disrupt. I don't take LW/MIRI/CFAR to be typical of Silicon Valley culture; rather, a part of Bay Area memespace that is poorly understood or ignored but still important. Of course some readers will be put off. Others will explore more deeply, and things that seemed weird at first will come to seem more normal. That's what happened with me, but it took months of exposure. And I still struggle with the coexistence of universalism and elitism in the community, but it's not like I have a wholly satisfying solution; maybe by this time next year I'll be a neoreactionary, who knows!!
-Regarding the statistics and su...
While I'm here, let me plug two novels I think LW readers might appreciate: Watt by Samuel Beckett (an obsessively logical, hilarious book) and The Man Without Qualities by Robert Musil, whose hero is a rationalist in abeyance (Musil was a former engineer, philosopher, and psychologist himself).
Good sociology yo, good sardonicism without sneering, best article I've seen about this subculture yet.
Thanks for showing up and clarifying, Sam!
I'd be curious to hear more about the ways in which you think CFAR is over-(epistemically) hygienic. Feel free to email me if you prefer, but I bet a lot of people here would also be interested to hear your critique.
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. "We have found the way (elitism), and others should follow (universalism)" seems like a pretty coherent position, and one I'd expect to see throughout history, not just in the British Empire. Isn't it implicit in the idea of missionary religion, and of much philosophy?
Granted, there's a distinction you can make between "We found the way by luck" and "We found the way by virtue". The former is less elitist than the latter, but it still entails that "our way is better than yours".
...I think I've lost sight of what defines 'elitism' besides believing something.
Given the writing style, it seems to me that the author intended this piece to be read as a travelogue ("a trip to a far away land") rather than an article that tries to explain something to the readers. It is my impression that he does not try to think about the subject matter, he tries to feel it as a traveler who accidentally wandered here. Thus the author writes about his experiences, pays attention to small and idiosyncratic things (instead of trying to analyze anything), short sentences and quick leaps of thought is probably the authors way to give reader a dizzying feeling which, I guess, was what the author was feeling during his trip to an unfamiliar place due to meeting so many people in a short period of time. So, I guess, the author didn't care that much about whether his travelogue would give magazine's readers an accurate and insightful understanding of MIRI, CFAR and LessWrong. Instead, he probably cared about conveying his emotions and experiences to his readers.
It seems to me that the author didn't intend this piece to be thought of as a review of MIRI's activities. It seems to be as much (or maybe even more) about his trip as it is about the community he visited. Once you put this piece in a travelogue reference class, some of its flaws seem to be simply peculiarities of the writing style that is typical to that genre.
For what it's worth, I perceived the article as more affectionate than offensive when I initially read it. This may have something to do with full piece vs. excerpts, so I'd recommend reading the full piece (which isn't that much longer) first if you care.
And then I realized that my level of agreement was inversely proportional to my knowledge of the subject.
It's this:
I was buttonholed by a man whose name tag read MICHAEL VASSAR, METAMED research.... “What did you think of that talk?” he asked, without introducing himself. “Disorganized, wasn’t it?” A theory of everything followed...
Vassar has a tendency to monologue. And a lot of what he says comes off as crazy at first blush. You get the impression he's just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Usually I find monologuers annoying, but I find Michael fascinating. It seems our author was similarly seduced.
... My brain hurt. I backed away and headed home. But Vassar had spoken like no one I had ever met, and after Kurzweil’s keynote the next morning, I sought him out.
Perhaps this is silly of me, but the single word in the article that made me indignantly exclaim "What!?" was when he called CFAR "overhygienic."
I mean... you can call us nerdy, weird in some ways, obsessed with productivity, with some justification! But how can you take issue with our insistence [Edit: more like strong encouragement!] that people use hand sanitizer at a 4-day retreat with 40 people sharing food and close quarters?
[Edit: The author has clarified above that "overhygienic" was meant to refer to epistemic hygiene, not literal hygiene.]
and in close contact with so many other people
So, people who commute by public transportation in a big city are just screwed, aren't they? :-)
it's good practice to use hand sanitizers regularly
I don't think so -- not for people with a healthy immune system.
I really liked the level of subtextual snark (e.g. almost every use of the word 'rational'). This level of skepticism and mockery is, frankly, about what should be applied, and was fun to read.
I was surprised at the density of weirdness, not because it makes bad journalism, but because it's difficult for the audience to understand (e.g. /r/hpmor is just dropped in there and the reader is expected to deal). I like Sarunas' explanation for this. Fairness-wise, this was better than I expected, though with occasional surrenders to temptation (The glaring one for me was Will and Divia Eden).
Michael Vassar as our face was inevitable if disappointing. The writing about him was great. I feel like the descriptions of his clothing are the author making him a little funnier - nobody else gets clothing description.
The author's initial inability to read lesswrong makes me think we may need a big button at the top that says "First time? Click here!" and just dumps you into a beginner version of the Sequences page.
Interesting excerpt.
First I'd say, to anyone who would call it unfair (I think it's far more nuanced and interesting than say the Slate article), that the author is pretty clear about what is alienating or confounding him. If many people dismiss LW and MIRI and CFAR for similar reasons, then the only rational response is to identify how that "this is ridiculous" response can be prevented.
Second, best HPMOR summary ever (I say this as a fan):
It’s not what I would call a novel, exactly, rather an unending, self-satisfied parable about rationality and trans-humanism, with jokes.
its keynote would be delivered by Ray Kurzweil, Google’s director of engineering
Standard correction: Kurzweil is one of many directors of engineering at Google. It's unfortunate that the name of his title makes it sound like he's the only one.
Also, should we be doing a better job publicizing the fact that LW's political surveys turn up plurality liberal, and about as many socialists as libertarians? Not that there's anything wrong with being libertarian, but I'm uneasy having the site classified that way.
This will not work, to briefly explain why I think so:
For the intended audience of the article, Libertarianism is unusual, Liberalism is normative. If the community was completely liberal, its liberalism would not have more than one mention or so in the article, certainly it would not make the title.
The prevalence of Liberals and Socialists, no matter how emphasized, can not lead to a rebranding as long as there is a presence of Libertarians in a fraction greater than expected. Indeed even if Libertarians were precisely at the expected fraction, whatever that would be, they might still get picked up by people searching for weird, potentially bad things about this weird, potentially bad "rationality movement".
As evidence of this note no journalist so far considers the eeire near total absence of normal conservatives who make up half of the population of the United States, the country most strongly represented, to be an unusual feature of the community. And furthermore if they somehow made up half of the community or some other "representative" fraction, this would be seen as a very strange, unusual perhaps even worrying feature of the community.
Hypothetically t...
Scott identifies as left-libertarian, so you're both right. Quoting "A Something Sort of Like Left-Libertarian-Ist Manifesto":
"[Some people] support both free markets and a social safety net. You could call them 'welfare capitalists'. I ran a Google search and some of them seem to call themselves 'bleeding heart libertarians'. I would call them 'correct'." [...]
"The position there’s no good name for – 'bleeding heart libertarians' is too long and too full of social justice memes, 'left-libertarian' usually means anarchists who haven’t thought about anarchy very carefully, and 'liberaltarian' is groanworthy – that position seems to be the sweet spot between these two extremes and the political philosophy I’m most comfortable with right now. It consists of dealing with social and economic problems, when possible, through subsidies and taxes which come directly from the government. I think it’s likely to be the conclusion of my long engagement with libertarianism (have I mentioned I only engage with philosophies I like?)"
This is still probably an oversimplification, and Scott's views may have developed in the year since he wrote that article -- in particu...
Men made up 88.8% of respondents; 78.7% were straight, 1.5% transgender, ...
The author makes it sound like this makes us a very male-dominated straight cisgender community.
Mostly male, sure. But most people won't compare the percentage of heterosexuals and cisgenders with that of the general population to note that we are in fact more diverse.
I think the mainstream take from this article would be the vibe of the usual California flakes and nuts, high-tech math philosophy edition...
Some of the awkward personal details which are so deliciously expounded upon come close to character assassination. Shame on the author, going for the cheap shots. I can just imagine an exposé of the very same style used to denigrate, say, Alan Turing.
Could have been much worse. He didn't even define the basilisk or spend half the article discussing it - or frozen chopped-off heads for that matter.
Don't underestimate the Harper's readership. If any one of those encounters the subject again, they're prone to remember "haha, yea I read about those, something about a guy who can't control his face or something?", have a good laugh and move on. That kind of stuff is much more salient than some cursory pointers at some arguments, mostly with a one sentence "debunking" following.
The author has snuck in so many "these people are crazy", "these people actually don't have a clue" and "these people are full of themselves" counterpoints, each of which is presented in a much more authoritative way than presenting MIRI's/CFAR's arguments:
"Look around. If they were effective, rational people, would they be here? Something a little weird, no?" I walked outside for air.
This is the voice of god sneaking in and impressing on readers what they should think. Nice people, don't waste your time nor your money.
I would except LW/MIRI to be antifragile to most mainstream media criticism.
"Criticism" is a nice phrase when we're talking about parading people's bodily shortcomings and "crazy" idiosyncrasies in lieu o...
I liked the article on a personal level, but as PR I agree more with Kawoomba. It seems like a lot of people invested time into making this article well-informed and balanced, yet the result is a (mild) PR net-negative, albeit an entertaining one. We have positive associations with most of the things the article talks about, so we're likely to underestimate the effect of the article's negative priming and framing on a typical reader (which may include other journalists, and thereby affect our perception in future articles).
The article wants readers to think that Vassar has delusions of grandeur and Thiel is a fascist, so linking the two more tightly isn't necessarily an effort to make either one look better. And there's totally such a thing as bad press, especially when your main goal is to sway computer science types, not get the general public to notice you. This at best adds noise and shiny distractions to attempts to talk about LW/MIRI's AI views around the water cooler.
It's true FHI and FLI are more PR-oriented than MIRI, but that doesn't mean it's FHI's job to produce useful news stories and MIRI's job to produce silly or harmful ones. Better to just not make headlines (and reduce the risk of inoculating people against MIRI's substantive ideas), unless there's a plausible causal pathway from the article to 'AGI risk is reduced'.
For starters, Turing had a high pitched stammer, extremely yellow teeth, and noticeably dirty fingernails (even though he was often seen biting them). No doubt, a less than sympathetic investigator would have found many more such things to mention in an article about him.
I'm curious what the goal of communicating with this journalist was. News organizations get paid by the pageview, so they have an incentive to sell a story, not spread the truth. And journalists also are famous for misrepresenting the people and topics they cover. (Typically when I read something in the press that discusses a topic I know about, they almost always get it a little wrong and often get it a lot wrong. I'm not the only one; this has gotten discussed on Hacker News. In fact, I think it might be interesting to start a "meta-journalism&...
News organizations get paid by the pageview, so they have an incentive to sell a story, not spread the truth.
Harper's magazine is not a website that counts pageviews as it's prime metric. It makes money via subscriptions. Different business model.
In fact, I think it might be interesting to start a "meta-journalism" organization that would find big stories in the media, talk to the people who were interviewed, and get direct quotes from them on if/how they were misrepresented.
That could be useful for giving people a better idea of how the media works.
You hire a publicist or PR firm that does the reverse and takes your story to journalists and makes sure they present it accurately.
That's a naive view. There no way a PR firm can force accurate representation.
So would you suggest we only read PR-firm-generated articles to get the "real story"?
More direct answer: Not talking to journalists allows them to represent you however they want, along with the "refused to comment". Talking at least gets your own words in.
I also don't see anything clearly unethical in this article's journalism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5UAOK1bk74 - shoot, Vassar does really wear slightly-too-large suits. I'll assume that he's A/B tested this to give best results?
Seems like a very interesting, if unflattering and often uncharitable look at CFAR and MIRI from the inside.
when the author has such downright awkward, disjointed and mashed-together style
Some of that may be the fault of my excerpting/editing. There were so many short paragraphs I felt I had to combine a bunch for HTML presentation (little paragraphs may work well in a double-column narrow magazine layout, but in a single column wide layout? not so much), and I tried to cut as much material as possible (otherwise there's no point in excerpting and I should've just left it as a pointer to the PDF).
...Less Wrong, which was written as if for aliens. I take it as a compliment to know I'm an alien. (LW is definitely written as if for me)
...“You have these weird phenomena like Occupy where people are protesting with no goals, no theory of how the world is, around which they can structure a protest. Basically this incredibly, weirdly, thoroughly disempowered group of people will have to inherit the power of the world anyway, because sooner or later everyone older is going to be too old and too technologically obsolete and too bankrupt. The old institutions may largely break down or they may be handed over, but either way they can’t just freeze. These people are going to be in charge, and it w
Worth noting: To me, at least, the article comes off as a fair bit less of an attack when read in full.
Cover title: “Power and paranoia in Silicon Valley”; article title: “Come with us if you want to live: Among the apocalyptic libertarians of Silicon Valley” (mirrors: 1, 2, 3), by Sam Frank; Harper’s Magazine, January 2015, pg26-36 (~8500 words). The beginning/ending are focused on Ethereum and Vitalik Buterin, so I'll excerpt the LW/MIRI/CFAR-focused middle:
Pointer thanks to /u/Vulture.