Let me tell you about my personal experience with testosterone, which may be of some interest. At the age of 21 I was a junior in college majoring in math and physics, a very thin, effeminate, extremely shy nerd who was sometimes mistaken for a 14 year old prodigy. When I finally saw a doctor and it was found that I produced no natural testosterone, I began giving myself injections of the hormone. Anxious to get results, I often gave myself more than the prescribed dose. The results were profound: Within 6 months I had undergone an accelerated puberty which resulted in a bad case of acne, a much better physique and nearly caused me to flunk out of college. I was often overwhelmed, walking around campus among my peers, by the apish nature of my species. Having lost interest in intellectual pursuits, all I really wanted to do was fight, fuck and pick bananas off of trees. I even began shoplifting for no apparent reason other than it seemed like something I could get away with.
I managed to barely graduate, but my life was thrown into disarray from which I have never fully recovered. It became frighteningly clear to me just how much human lives are controlled by chemicals rather than any moralistic narratives. While a high testosterone level certainly gives you energy, ambition and fearlessness, it probably isn’t very helpful in a technological civilization which requires people to sit at computers all day manipulating symbols. My guess is that women are going to rule in such a world, as high testosterone men become increasingly useless and tend to wind up in prison. It may get to the point where testosterone levels will need to be technologically lowered to reduce crime and make men more socially acceptable.
So understand this, all you LessWrong nerds: when you see someone who is like a thug to you, that he is in the grip of an incredibly powerful mind-altering chemical called testosterone which, more than any other, is responsible for the evil that men do.
You gave yourself a powerful mind altering chemical that most peoples bodies/minds have grown up with and have built up mental models, skill, techniques to handle it. Your mind however did not have a half a life time to learn how to handle it. That is why:
it probably isn’t very helpful in a technological civilization which requires people to sit at computers all day manipulating symbols. My guess is that women are going to rule in such a world, as high testosterone men become increasingly useless and tend to wind up in prison. It may get to the point where testosterone levels will need to be technologically lowered to reduce crime and make men more socially acceptable.
So understand this, all you LessWrong nerds: when you see someone who is like a thug to you, realize that he is in the grip of an incredibly powerful mind-altering chemical called testosterone which, more than any other, is responsible for the evil that men do.
seem to be based on thin evidence.
This is way way old I know, but I thought I'd give a contrasting viewpoint. I too produce no natural testosterone. I noticed something was off around age 16 and started getting injections at age 17, I think. My pubertal development was more gradual, probably taking about a year and half or so. I noticed no significant personality changes during that time or since (other than being horny all the time, of course), and definitely no increase in aggression (I started as a very passive person if you want a baseline). I don't think my physique changed that much (I was very skinny before taking testosterone and I still am), but I had a significant growth spurt. I got the occasional pimple, but no acne. Honestly the whole transition was very smooth and didn't cause me any trouble whatsoever - leading me to theorize at the time that late teens might actually be a better time to go through puberty, because one is cognitively more able to handle the abrupt changes. The above seems to argue against that though.
Incidentally, my testosterone dose at the moment gives me a peak level that's on the high end of normal. So I don't think it's a case of me not getting "enough" testosterone to make me aggressive, unless the effect only shows up for extremely high levels.
The most interesting info on this topic I have seen is a trans guy's biography:
They interviewed the author on NPR and it was compelling audio (could not find it with a basic search). The thing which stuck out was his report that after he started taking the testosterone his personality and behavior and world view all changed very radically. He would be walking down crowded city sidewalks and intentionally bump into guys and behave in other defiant and challenging manners which were unimaginable to him before he started the therapy when still a bio woman.
I heard that FtM transsexuals tend to be much more aggressive than ("normal") males, because unlike men they aren't used to living with those hormones since they were kids.
Part of the problem here is that even if testosterone had absolutely no effect on aggression at all, we would still see people taking testosterone injections acting more aggressive. Why? Because the common belief is that testosterone will make you more aggressive. Give them saline and tell them it's testosterone and they'll start bumping people in the street as well.
To test whether there is an actual effect going on here, they'd need to look at what how two different groups of FtM transsexuals respond when one is placed on a placebo, and one given testosterone. The article linked to by Gwern discusses this effect of perception on behavior:
Folk wisdom holds that testosterone causes antisocial, egoistic, or even aggressive behaviors in humans. However, the correlational studies discussed above already suggest that this simple folk view probably requires revision [34,56]. A recent placebo-controlled testosterone administration study found support for the idea that the testosterone–aggression link might be based upon ‘folk’ views: individuals given placebo who believed they had been given testosterone showed less fair bargaining offers compared with those who believed that they had received placebo, thus confirming people’s stereotypes about the behavioral effects of testosterone. More importantly, however, when statistically controlling for this belief of treatment assignment, one acute dose of testosterone in women increased the fairness of proposers’ bargaining offers in an ultimatum game [13] (Figure 3).
From the Reddit discussion:
It reminds me of that article written by a female-to-male transsexual about the effects of introducing testosterone to his body. He specifically mentioned that most activities (especially sex) had become obscenely more focused on the goal or end-result, and how the rest of the journey didn't matter so much. I can probably find it again if anyone's interested. http://www.reddit.com/r/cogsci/comments/lipbp/testosterone_and_social_functioning/c2t254p
linking to http://tranifesto.com/2010/06/30/testosterone-and-sex-drive-my-second-adolescence/ - interesting indeed.
So, would it be advisable to use testosterone as an anti-akrasia aid or social phobia suppressor?
Advisable? I certainly wouldn't advise it - modafinil or melatonin, yeah, I've read a fair bit of material and think I know the minimal risks, but not testosterone. I'm a little concerned about the mixed bag I see in some of the case studies. For example, Andrew Sullivan has covered his experience with prescription testosterone:
If someone is going to try that, they should report back (considering there are so many fearless nootropic experimenters here already, it seems possible at least one or two people will try it).
I do not plan to supplement my natural levels but I do intend to use supllemental test to stay at my baseline as the level naturally drops off with aging.
Isn't testosterone also an immunosuppressant? It would need to be a pretty big effect to merit the tradeoff.
Anecdotally, I've always had social anxiety despite being, I'm fairly certain, on the high end of the natural testosterone distribution (very strong libido, very easy to build muscle mass, my chin has actual corners that make shaving a pain, etc.).
Isn't testosterone also an immunosuppressant? It would need to be a pretty big effect to merit the tradeoff.
Maybe. From Sullivan:
For reasons no one seems to understand, testosterone may also be an immune suppressant. High levels of it can correspond, as recent studies have shown, not only with baldness but also with heart disease and a greater susceptibility to infectious diseases. Higher levels of prostate cancer among blacks, some researchers believe, may well be related to blacks' higher testosterone levels. The aggression it can foster and the risks it encourages lead men into situations that often wound or kill them. And higher levels of testosterone-driven promiscuity make men more prone to sexually transmitted diseases. This is one reason that men live shorter lives on average than women. There is something, in other words, tragic about testosterone. It can lead to a certain kind of male glory; it may lead to valor or boldness or impulsive romanticism. But it also presages a uniquely male kind of doom. The cockerel with the brightest comb is often the most attractive and the most testosteroned, but it is also the most vulnerable to parasites. It is as if it has sacrificed quantity of life for intensity of experience, and this trade-off is a deeply male one.
The things that increase testosterone serum levels are things you should be doing anyway.
I'm curious about your musings on the connection between masturbation and risk-taking. Would it be mediated by testosterone levels?
I've heard several people mention the idea that frequent masturbation would lower testosterone levels. But after a very brief search, I found claims that no studies supporting such a relationship exists, and a study (admittedly with few subjects) which failed to find any effects from sexual activity on blood plasma testosterone levels. Know any results to the contrary?
Would it be mediated by testosterone levels?
That was the obvious place to look for such connections, yeah, even before I went through the Eisenegger review; I already have a cite that fatherhood reduces testosterone levels.
From your modafinil link:
Interestingly, there seem to be some groups for which modafinil does little or nothing, and this ineffectiveness may not be due to counterfeit product or poor self-monitoring, but genetics:
“…Two-time 100 mg modafinil potently improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functioning and vigilant attention throughout sleep deprivation in Val/Val genotype subjects but was hardly effective in subjects with the Met/Met genotype.”
The genotype variation specifically refers to the Rs4680 SNP, which is one of the SNPs that services like 23andMe test for.
Crap, I'm Met/Met! Thanks for saving me some money though.
You're welcome. You could get some and try anyway to see what happens - I've long wondered how reliable these SNP findings are.
Google Adrafinil. It works very well for me. It is legal and unregulated in USA and some other places.
Any tips on procurement if the decision goes that way?
Nothing that I haven't already written down or that a LWer shouldn't be able to figure out.
I am well aware of that site, have received modafinil from it, and have even corresponded with the owner; ignorance of specific websites was not the point I was making.
I just felt like the speed of my answer should still be of some benefit, and I wasn't aware that you had gained the knowledge of its existence in the month hence your previous comment.
So, ought we take supplemetary testosterone?
The benefits of weight training are typically significant and self-evident. Though anecdotal, most accounts I've heard (including my own) suggest that this is in large part due to increased testosterone levels. Why not supplement the natural process? If so, by how much?
So, ought we take supplemetary testosterone?
A question whose answer is far from obvious. See the homeostasis quote for one obstacle...
From Sullivan's article:
Testosterone's antidepressive power is only marginally understood. It doesn't act in the precise way other antidepressants do, and it probably helps alleviate gloominess primarily by propelling people into greater activity and restlessness, giving them less time to think and reflect. (This may be one reason women tend to suffer more from depression than men.) Like other drugs, T can also lose potency if overused. Men who inject excessive amounts may see their own production collapse and experience shrinkage of their testicles and liver damage.
We’ve discussed signaling and status endlessly on LW; I think this is right up our vein: a 2011 review of research on the connections between famous male hormone testosterone and various forms of social interaction and especially social status, Eisenegger et al’s “The role of testosterone in social interaction”. (I grabbed this PDF in the short time Elsevier left full-text available, but only now, with some modafinil-powered spare time, have gotten around to excerpting it for you guys.)
1 Abstract
2 Excerpts
Is testosterone simply aggression promoting (a sort of ‘roid rage’)?
Probably not:
This may come as a surprise:
The null findings may be due to a possible confounding effect of homeostasis, but that wouldn’t cover the null on acute administration:
‘Dominant’ looks like a better perspective than ‘aggressive’:
This interest in dominance leads to mental changes (I am reminded of self-deception):
(The jokes about women and men almost make themselves.)
Not all of these changes are what one would naively expect (see previously about the ‘folk theory’ of testosterone):
I found interesting the material starting page 267, “Neurobiological mechanisms underlying the role of testosterone in social status hierarchies” (due to my own musings about the possible effects of masturbation went that it might be misinterpreted as reproductive ‘success’ which reduces risk-taking or activity in general):
Fear & stress:
Motivation & learning:
Summary of foregoing:
3 References