I think I've been unwaveringly lifeist the whole time. My main shift has been that I think I see some value in deathist sentiment that's absent from most lifeist rhetoric I'm familiar with. I want a perspective that honors why both arise.

I did dabble with ideas around whether death is an illusion. And I still think there might be something to it. But having done so, it looks like a moving goalposts thing to me. I still don't want to die, and I don't want my loved ones to die, and I think that means something that matters.

"Is the MMA guy actually getting his arm/tibia bent in fights in ways that they wouldn't if he mixed in some Aikido?"

I don't have enough MMA experience to know with much confidence. But from what little bit of BJJ rolling I've done, my impression is yes, folk who don't know the unbendable arm trick end up struggling sometimes in ways they don't have to.

It's reflected on both sides, really. If BJJ folk really understood this unbendable joint thing, they wouldn't keep trying to bend my arm to get through the grip I have (e.g. holding their lapel on either side with each hand). They pointlessly exhaust themselves. Usually more experienced folk will switch strategies at that point. But the fact that so many of them even try suggests to me that they're used to most people they roll with not being able to do this thing.

But I don't know. Maybe I'm just unfamiliar with those arts and this tool isn't useful in those situations.

The third is that he gives clear objective rules, I do a bad job on positioning/activation on my own accord, and then he shows me how to not do that. This is the only case where The Unbendable Arm is worth anything, and it's not because the technique itself is so great but because I was so dumb to start with.

I don't know about "dumb". Maybe "ignorant", the way an infant is ignorant of how to stand, or someone unpracticed will fall over if standing on one leg with their eyes closed. It takes a while of using the body in a way it hasn't been used before in order for the new skill to click into place.

Otherwise yeah, what you're saying makes sense to me.

And it's true, I don't know whether the unbendable arm is at all novel or useful to you. It's clearly novel for most people IME. Including very practiced martial artists who haven't otherwise worked with it. But I don't know, maybe you already do something equivalent. Or maybe it's irrelevant to the things you care about.

I assume you're still up in the bay area? I'm not likely to be up there anytime soon, but if you're ever back down in socal and want to play with this stuff let me know. It sounds fun. 

I bet we'd come out of it with a force vector diagram and a good way to clearly demonstrate what's going on.

Yep, still in the Bay Area. Sounds good. And yep, I agree RE force diagram etc.

"This is supposed to stay standing" seems to be implied…

Maybe by others, but I don't need it. I can do it on my back. Or mid leap (though that's harder to demo :P ). Or upside down. I think I can do it with my arm stretched behind my back, but I'm less confident of that one; I'd have to try it.

But if my upper arm is pinned in a way that keeps me from moving my elbow, then yeah, I think that breaks the technique. Although in practice most people can't pin my upper arm in the way that matters. Even if they're trying to pin my arm to the ground. They'd have to try really really hard to fix my upper arm to the ground to get the unbendable thing to falter. At least in the ways I've encountered so far.

Similarly, what are the rules on footwork?

I'm not sure what you're asking. I can do it seated. Or while doing a shoulder stand. Or while lifted off the ground in a bearhug. I don't think there are implicit rules about footwork.

Do you have a preferred video demonstration? Or can you draw the force vector diagrams? I don't doubt that you're observing something real here, but from looking through YouTube I'm not seeing what you're describing. 

Boy do I relate. For whatever reason, the demos on YouTube are almost universally weirdly bad. I'm guessing Ivan found the one he linked to because I linked to it; it's the clearest short demo I'd found.

I'll see about making one sometime. It's a little tricky for me in particular to convey over video because I'm so visibly strong. But I'll give it some thought. Maybe I can ask for help from some of the bodybuilders at one of the local gyms.

Sadly I can't draw a force diagram because I honestly don't know how it works. I can almost make sense of it. The technique works perfectly well if I put my wrist on an unyielding inanimate object like a table, so I think I'm somehow transferring the downward force near the elbow into the upward force on the wrist. But I'm not at all sure how that "somehow" works. I just… do it. By "extending ki". :-P

"I want him to tense up as physically hard as possible" -- and then he has to admonish his volunteer for "losing focus" when his unbendable arm bends

This one is just awful. Just utterly dumb. It's correct that losing focus when you're learning the technique causes it to fail. But at no point in the video does he demonstrate the actual thing. They're treating it like mysterious magic — which makes sense! It's hard to do without treating it like a bit of magic at first.

I can do the unbendable arm while distracted now. It's something my body just does when I choose for it to.

"the only purpose of this is for me to experience relaxation completely on this muscle" -- with emphasis that the arm is gonna bend at least a little bit and maybe more.

Yeah, I'm with you, this isn't impressive. It's kind of sort of right ish. But his understanding of how to do it is sloppy IMO. That slop shows up in how he stumbles around.

Complete relaxation is not necessary for doing this technique. But if you're doing the technique right, tremendous relaxation is possible. So if you want to check if you're doing it right, you can try relaxing more than you would be relaxed if you were fighting to keep your arm straight.

He's right that the arm might bend a little. It's an adjustment thing. Kind of like how your knees might bend a little if you catch a falling heavy object: it's just a spring action as your body adjusts to the new incoming force. But if you're doing unbendable arm right, you can actually let the arm completely fold up and then straighten it out again while they're applying force. It's quite easy.

But my guess is that he's not referring to adjustment. I think he's making excuses for poor technique.

This one shows something closer to what you're talking about, but it's pretty clear that he's cheating the starting position by giving himself a more advantageous position the second time and having the other guy start in a less advantageous position. Which I guess kinda raises the question of what exactly is it supposed to demonstrate? Is that "cheating" or is that the entire thing being conveyed?

At a glance, it looks to me like this guy really is doing the thing I'm talking about. There might be extra stuff going on, but my impression is that if you vary that extra stuff it won't affect the power of the unbendable arm. I really don't think it's a matter of "advantageous position".

I'm not going to die on the hill of "This guy is authentic." It's just a passing impression from watching the video. That said, I might start linking to this demo instead honestly! :-D Although I do like the original guy's looseness better.

I'd be happy to do this demo with you with the "advantageous positioning" mostly however you want it to be. I say "mostly" because there are some things that'll break the technique's ability to work, and I can nearly always tell you ahead of time what those will be. (E.g., if you rigidly pin my upper arm to a stationary object like a countertop, the technique won't work.) But it's really not about the level of advantage I think you're talking about. I can do the unbendable arm on my knees with my arm pointing straight over my head. I can do it with two people, one pushing up on my wrist and the other pushing down on my elbow. I hold totally inanimate objects using this technique, like sacks of groceries, by placing a wrist on a surface like a wall or a railing. I'm pretty darn sure it's a physics trick having to do with redirecting forces somehow. It's just a little tricky to learn how to do it.

My wife's first reaction to "don't let me bend your arm" was actually to swat my hand away from her wrist, which playfully points out that we're implicitly holding back in unspecified ways for sake of the demonstration, and if we were actually trying to not let someone bend our arm we would be doing something quite different. So what are the rules, anyway? As long as the rules are kept hidden it's really easy to move the goalposts around without anyone noticing.

I'm very, very confident it doesn't work via moving goalposts.

I don't know how to delineate all the "rules". If you change the context such that you're not testing the arm's unbendability, then you won't get to experience the thing I'm talking about. There are some ways of testing unbendability that will, in fact, get even my arm to bend in defiance of my trying to use this technique. There's an amount of force that should, in theory, cause tendons/ligaments/bones to start snapping, at which point of course the arm will fold.

Maybe there are other things for me to name there. I don't know.

But if you're concerned about any hidden rules here, feel free to ask me about them. If you give me a scenario, I can tell you whether (a) it's testing the thing I'm talking about and (b) how it'd do.

E.g., if you vice grip my upper arm and use a car jack against my wrist to force my arm to bend, it absolutely will. I have no power against that setup.

E.g., if you stare really hard at my arm to try to get it to bend but you don't touch it, you won't be testing the thing I'm talking about.

E.g., if you are trying to bend my arm like in many of these demos but you surprise me by smashing my foot really hard, I might stop doing the technique and you might successfully bend my arm — not because it failed but because I stopped doing it. (Although even here, if it were somehow really dire that I demo it, I might flinch and it might falter for a moment, but I'd be able to recover it and re-extend my arm against your force.)

And as I said up above, within some sensible limits I'm very happy to demo this technique in person. I'd ask that you not smash my foot or otherwise be mean about it! And there are some tests you might want to do that I can just flat-out tell you would cause the technique to stop working, so I don't think there's much point in running those. But if you want me to, say, do it blindfolded while lying on the ground and singing the national anthem, I'd be totally happy to do that. It'll work just fine.

I think this is related to how interfaces are selected for by functionality, not accuracy. Accuracy is one thing that can make them functional sometimes. But not always!

I like Donald Hoffman's example of computer GUI desktops. Those aren't meant to reflect the actual state of anything at the hardware level. A given "file" on your "desktop" might be scattered across your hard drive for instance. The point of the desktop is to create a kind of semi-fictional interface that humans can use. It's not totally disconnected from what's going on in the computer; otherwise it wouldn't work. But in many ways it'd get worse as a usable interface if you made it more accurate.

Likewise, motivational inner speech ("I can do it! I can do it!") isn't meant to be an epistemically justified conclusion. It's a way of drumming up resources to try something. Refusing to use it because its literal denotations aren't justified is a kind of confusion.

Another example is the common thing about fixing posture by imagining a string attached to the top of your head that's suspended from far up in the sky. Obviously there's no such string. But somehow visualizing and "feeling" the string and kind of "hanging" from it can often help people rearrange their spine in a helpful way. It's much harder to give specific instructions about what shifts to make in the spine: that's just not the natural interface for making the right adjustments.

A maybe stranger example is learning to balance on one foot with your eyes closed. A lot of that is just your body getting used to using the vestibular and proprioceptive senses, and lots of quick micro adjustments, to stay upright. But AFAICT it's completely irrelevant whether you understand that. You just… try. And you keep trying. And eventually something hidden happens, and you get better at it (probably — some don't!). The interface there is this magic "trying" thing. More accurate detail about what you're trying is just noise (AFAIK)!

It's unclear to me where the boundaries of this effect are. If I don a frame of faith in Christ, does this create a world interface that makes some things available that are harder to access in some other way? How would I tell? If it affects how pleasant life feels to me, and by it how open-hearted I'm able to be with those I love, and those who don't hold that faith don't seem to be as free to open their hearts… well, it kind of looks like the faithless are the confused ones, aren't they? Kind of like a person who won't use a GUI interface because it's deceptive.

(I'm not claiming that specifically faith in Christ does this, by the way! I'm giving a hypothetical example. I also think some people in fact do have a subjective experience as though this hypothetical example is real — but that involves a lot of social complexities such as that they're supposed to experience it as true. So please take it as a purely theoretical example. Or feel free to debate whether it's accurate of course! But please don't frame it as though you're debating with me about its accuracy.)

As the author, I want to note that I'm way more skeptical of my earlier explanation.

(Accordingly, I'm less confident of my current explanation too!)

I'm pretty sure the movement cannot work if you vice grip my upper arm such that it can't move relative to my body (or to the ground). The elbow must be free to rise a bit.

Sometimes I'll demo the trick by letting people fold my arm, asking them to continue applying as much pressure as they like, warn them that I'm about to start straightening my arm, and then just do so. It's close to effortless for me. But when I do it, my whole arm goes up first. I then lower my arm again once it's straight.

The lats might be closely involved, but I don't think that's the main issue. I haven't noticed any effect whatsoever in terms of unbendable arm strength based on lat strength.

Also, once someone who's vastly weaker than me gets the "click", they're able to (sometimes) defy me regardless of how much muscular strength I put into it.

So I'm pretty sure it's some kind of leverage trick.

My best guess right now is somethingsomething redirecting force between the incoming hands into each other somethingsomething.

I use the same feeling to hold very heavy objects when I put my hand on a table. Like hanging a heavy grocery bag on my elbow with my arm straight and my palm up. I keep it suspended by letting the bag press the back of my hand into the table. IME I'm not so much fighting the bag's bending my arm as I am just… reaching. If you make the bag heavier, it presses my hand harder into the table. That's it. It's not relevantly harder for me to keep the bag suspended.

Again, no lats.

If heaven doesn't exist, believing in it, and even acting as though you want to go there, won't get you there.

I'm not so sure. My impression is that while dying, perception of time and reality can break down. It might be kind of like falling into a dream state or dropping into an intense psychedelic trip. As the subjective experience of time breaks down, each moment can stretch out until it's subjectively eternal. If at that point you have a well-developed belief in Heaven, that could very well be what opens up for you, and you could reside there "forever".

Given that it's going to feel like something as you die, it sure seems preferable that it be something utterly wonderful. Rather than (say) something horrifying as your animal terror around dying defines the thoughts and anticipations that shape the psychedelic dreamscape you "eternally" fall into. Shaping the dying experience sure seems to me like it'd require some kind of prep work.

Obviously I agree that if Heaven isn't a place that your eternal soul literally goes to, then what you believe won't get you there. Because there's no "there" to get to.

I just want to suggest that maybe that's a strawman. Depending on your disposition, you might really wish you'd developed faith in Christ or whatever as you watch your death take you. At that point "salvation" won't be theoretical, I'm guessing. It won't matter that Heaven/Hell/whatever is "just" a dying brain experience; that's not much consolation in the middle of it IME.

(This thought inspired by both strange meditative states and some horrific psychedelic experiences. Hence "IME", not "IMO". Both are a bit deceptive though: I don't mean to say that my experiences are for sure equivalent to the dying experience.)

Kudos on doing the test!

FWIW, the key thing in unbendable arm isn't about tensing only the relevant opposing muscles. It's more about redirecting incoming forces at each other instead of fighting them directly.

The real test is in dealing with someone who's way stronger than you. If you have no hope of keeping your arm straight via tricep strength.

I'm guessing that either (a) you're not much stronger than your wife or (b) she didn't click into the thing the visualization is meant to help people click into.

Seriously, the thing I mean when I point at this technique isn't a vague "energy" trick that fails upon encountering an MMA fighter or whatever. And it definitely doesn't rely on subtly deceiving people into tensing the wrong muscles. Unbendable arm is immensely demonstrable. As weird as the following might sound, I use it every day. It's easily in the top ten most useful things I learned from aikido and might be in the top three.

Oh cool! In aikido we'd call that "extending ki" (in contrast to "cutting ki", where your "mind" stops at the point of contact and your "ki" (here roughly "followthrough") abruptly halts).

Huh, I'm not aware of having deleted that post! I wonder where it went.

FWIW, after teaching a bunch of folk the unbendable arm, I've had to revise my impression in that original comment. Telling people the physics helps in a few cases, and seemed to help pretty dramatically in the first few (hence my original comment), but the variance was just way wider than I thought.

(Aside: wanting to acknowledge that the strength of my earlier comment wasn't in epistemic integrity. It's part of a communication pattern of mine that I've been examining lately.)

My impression is that people actually get to the full unbendable arm more reliably from the firehose imagery. In most cases, describing the physics does not help them find the surprising ease. They might succeed in keeping their arm straight, but it tends to be a struggle.

The firehose thing is not how I do it though! It's more like, there's an extension feeling in my limbs. When someone tries to bend my arm, if I'm already focusing on the extension feeling, they just can't bend it. If it starts to bend a little bit, I reach a little more. No effort against the force. It's more like I'm trying to reach the far wall — but just a little.

But telling people to reach doesn't seem to help as much. IME folk tend to reach by bending their spine, which seems to destabilize the whole thing. (Doesn't have to, but in practice it does.) They also switch from reaching to fighting once the pressure is on.

Things like Alexander Technique seem to help a lot more. Getting them to focus on the horizon and being peripherally aware of the pressure, instead of collapsing their awareness on the struggle at their arm.

Maybe more detail specifically about unbendable arm PCK than most need! But since my earlier comment now looks deceptive to me, I wanted to offer a correction.

I've been reflecting on this since it was posted. Coming back to it from time to time.

I just wanted to make a note saying: received. I believe I see your point, and I've been taking it in.

(I also disagree with some of the narrativemancy you employ here about me. It's difficult for me to publicly agree with anything in your comment here because of a similar mechanism that you're objecting to in the OP. I wish I didn't need to add this note. I'd rather just say "I'm hearing something meaningful in what you're saying and have been taking it in." That's the part that matters. But I can do so only if I also register that I very much disagree with your model of what I was trying to do, and in some cases I strongly disagree with your analysis of what I was in fact doing. Thankfully I can still learn from your message anyway. I just wanted to say — more to LW than to you, really — that I've heard your objection and have been taking the truth I can find in it seriously.)