All of alsomike's Comments + Replies

That's a matter of your perspective. You assume that the concepts are ontologically separate to begin with, and are then collapsed, simply because in this case they are made conceptually distinct by being named differently. I disagree, I say the conceptual distinction is artificial, used to avoid the full scope of the issue by ruling certain facts a priori irrelevant without having to consider them.

I'll repeat something I alluded to before: a happily married woman who listens to her sister's dramatic dating stories and feels relief that she no longer has to worry about all that. This is an example of how removing choice and flexibility can be the source of happiness. This requires us to see choice in negative terms, which is actually quite difficult to do, because the problems of a lack of choice have been dramatized in movies and novels so often that we have a strong emotional resonance with them - for example, the familiar narrative of the son who ... (read more)

I continue to feel that the established definition is wrong, and I've made many points justifying that, none of which you've actually refuted. Instead, you simply insist that I restrict myself to your preferred definition. This is exactly my point - by defining the terms in advance and making them incontestable, you are trying to lead us to where you want us to go.

If you read carefully, you'll see that I didn't attribute the claim "monogamy is unnatural" to you. My point was to indicate the value of my observations about social norms and their re... (read more)

You claim that society prevents individuals from forming polyamorous relationships. My goal here was to show that tacit prohibitions and rights have strong efficacy and should be considered part of the social order. This supports the idea that the tacit toleration of infidelity is part of the social order, and given the very high rates of marital infidelity, it's reasonable to say that polyamory, in a certain sense, is already a widely accepted practice. This is intended to clarify the specific claims that polyamorists are making as well as in what sense i... (read more)

Are you implying that the movement has changed its philosophical presuppositions? If so, please provide a citation to back this up.

But, the general reaction to learning about violations of monogamy seems to generally be, "They did that?" rather than "They let themselves get caught?"

I think for many people, infidelity only can be said to have happened if someone was caught. This is the logic of "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas." Another interesting aspect of outrage over rule-breaking is that it's possible and even common to be openly outraged about a transgression that you don't care about and even do yourself.

This is not really hypocrisy, it's a... (read more)

(1) Yes, but also I claim that WrongBot's claim of nonconformity is simply false. He's just applying a very widely held value in a slightly novel way.

(2) I think monogamy can be justified rationally, but this involves reconstructing certain values that have been eclipsed by consumerist logic

(3) The demand to justify our sexual practices or risk being put into stigmatized position of conformist is unfair.

Some further points: the debate of polyamory vs. monogamy is not, strictly speaking, a debate about whether it's best to have one partner or multiple partn... (read more)

I don't see any reason why someone couldn't consider multiple conflicting values and determine that polygamy was the best way to satisfy most of them.

In principle, this is true, but I take the polyamory movement as having been heavily influenced by the 60s counterculture movement and the sexual revolution, influenced philosophically by Romantic poets and Rousseau. One of the major countercultural critiques of mainstream society is hypocritical, inconsistent and contradictory values.

Empirically, this has been demonstrated by Jonathan Haidt. Maybe you are... (read more)

Seems to imply that you engaged in something like bottom-line reasoning

Oh, I see. The complete statement is that the claim is that polyamory is good because it offers more choice and flexibility. My response is that far from an advantage, this seems like a good reason to reject polyamory insofar as it is justified in that way. I'm contesting the pre-eminence of the value of flexibility in every area of life because I think they discourage deeper, more costly forms of connection in intimate relationships. In this area, I think inflexibility & limitat... (read more)

Ah, yes I guess I'm sliding between multiple definitions of nonconformity. When I said that polyamory is consciously nonconformist, I mean that in the sense that they adopt a position that is understood that way by their peers, their parents, etc. Nonconformity here is adopting idiosyncratic practices that may be stigmatized, with the intention of opening up new possibilities for living one's life. When I say the opposite, that polyamory is overly conformist, I mean to challenge that idea - what is usually understood as nonconformity arrives at it's positi... (read more)

can you see why something like this... makes it sound like you're engaging in cognition motivated by something other than finding the truth?

Not at all. Are you suggesting I'm attempting to conceal the truth? I don't know how this could be misconstrued, it seems perfectly straight-forward to me. The author suggests that polyamory is a product of a thought process that challenges social norms. I take the opposite view, that rejecting polyamory on the grounds that it is overly conformist to social norms is a genuinely challenging and interesting thesis. I'm at a loss as to why this is considered out of bounds.

I agree that we all need what you claim LessWrong wants to be, but I don't think I'm retreating in any way from having my assumptions scrutinized. If anything, the problem is the opposite one, most the replies haven't identified the key points on which my argument turns or their weaknesses, instead they've largely seized on what I think are irrelevant or incidental points, basic misunderstandings or just jumping to odd conclusions. I don't think my arguments are insincere attempts to see what I can make stick, I intend to defend them as best as I can &... (read more)

I appreciate the feedback. Once I respond to people's objections, I'll be on my way.

The issue I'm raising is that the logic of greater options and choices is the logic of consumerism. Renata Salecl has some interesting observations about this emphasis and how it generates anxieties and personal crises that directly challenge the ideological assumption that more choice can't be bad. (See here: "Who Am I For Myself? Anxiety & the Tyranny of Choice: http://slought.org/content/11318/) As far as social critiques go, this is far more challenging to deal with than this post, which smugly & uncritically assumes that it stands outside... (read more)

Of course, the most appropriate Žižekian point about this post is that ultimate super ego injunction is "Enjoy!" In other words, one of the main forms of conformity today is exactly this pose of throwing off the demands of mainstream society demonstrated in this post. This ideal is the main message of consumerism in advertising - choose for yourself, unlock your deepest desires, express your true identity! If you really want to enjoy yourself fully, you can't just settle for the boring default option - whether in toilet paper, jeans, music or rel... (read more)