All of andrewc's Comments + Replies

andrewc20

It sounded like sarcasm to mine.

1Fredrik
I think Eliezer was just stating a fact? Or, impression.
andrewc10

That's not always the case. Plenty of times competent people are called upon to implement a new method, and want to see for themselves the precise steps that the techniques' discoverer has gone through. I don't always have time, and it's not always instructive to have to fill in the blanks.

andrewc00

Depends on what you bought. More than a few stocks had the last few years of growth wiped off them last year, and that includes many well hedged managed funds. Your youthful assessment of the risks was perhaps better than you give it credit for.

What would the original investment be worth right now had you not cashed it in?

andrewc30

In the words of a well known amateur pianist:

If P is true then Q is true Q is true Therefore, P becomes more plausible.

But Annoyance was talking about logic, not plausible reasoning or probability theory, right? In terms of Aristotelian deductive logic the two errors quoted are pretty much equivalent.

1Annoyance
The statement "If P, then Q. Q. P is not ruled out." is correct logic. But it conveys very little information.
andrewc20

I like the staples - they all have their role to play in pushing the brain where you want it to go. Caffeine enhances concentration - my understanding is that continual small does (e.g. drink tea all day) are better than one big hit.

Alcohol mitigates biases against socially acceptable ideas by reducing inhibition. Think spirited debate over a pint, not all night bender. I find I am more receptive to odd ideas after a couple of beers.

THC (the main active agent in marijuana) is good for flashes of inspiration. I find my software designs when baked are brilli... (read more)

0PhilGoetz
I really had the wrong picture on first reading this.
andrewc10

Dunno the answer to your question but I noted a recent article that linked low carb diets to reduced mental performance discussed in this random medical publication

andrewc00

Cheers for that. I might just look it up when I have some time. Still skeptical but it seems more plausible after reading those quotes. The hypothesis of selection for lactose tolerance seems a good place to start.

andrewc40

... hardly anyone except perhaps Richard Dawkins imagines that by denigrating religion one is advancing science.

--E.T. Jaynes, "Probability Theory".

andrewc10

I don't understand your point about levels of abstraction.

The question is: are the 'tamest' humans the ones most able to reproduce, and therefore selected for by evolution?

Are the most rockin' humans the ones most able to reproduce? In the absence of any visible evidence, my answer to both questions is most likely not. Evidence would require a clear definition of tame (or rockin'). We can mostly agree on what a tame fox is but what is a tame human?

It seems to me that essentially random copulation, with some selection/treatment for serious genetic dise... (read more)

3JGWeissman
Imagine if someone said "This shape is not a rectangle. It is a quadrilateral." You would probably think, "Well, some quadrilaterals are rectangles, so the shape being a quadrilateral does not mean it is not a rectangle." "Quadrilateral" represents a higher level of abstraction than "rectangle" in that it specifies the shape less. Generally, the fact that something is accurately described in a vague manner does not mean it cannot also be accurately described in a more precise manner. That evolution selects for the most reproductively fit is tautological, it is practically the definition of "reproductively fit". The reason this tautology is useful is that it gets us to ask the question: what more concrete properties must an organism have to be reproductively fit? Here the property of "tameness" has been proposed as such a property, and represents a lower level of abstraction. Though, not much lower, you correctly point out that "Evidence would require a clear definition of tame".
andrewc10

I don't understand how you can relate health problems in pure bred dogs usually attributed to in-breeding, to a theory of degeneration of current humans. Mongrels ('Mutts' in US English?) have a reputation for being healthier, smarter, and longer-lived than most pure breds, and most of them come about due to random stray boy dogs impregnating random stray girl dogs.

I think it's simply false that human reproduction now selects for the 'tamest' humans, whatever that means. Now, as always, human reproduction selects for those who are most able to reproduce.

Did Dawkins actually articulate an argument like the one you present?

2JoeShipley
Well, yes, on Pg. 31 of 'The Ancestor's Tale', * Back to the Russian fox experiment, whcih demonstrates the speed with which domestication can happen, and the likelihood that a train of incidental effects would fllow in the wake of selection for tameness. It is entirely probable that cattle, pigs, horses, sheep, goats, chickens, gees,e ducks and camels followed a course which was just as fast, and just as rich in unexpected side-effects. It also seems plausible that we ourselves evolved down a parallel road of domestication after the Agricultural Revolution, towards our own version of tameness and associated by-product traits. In some cases, the story of our own domestication is clearly written in our genes. The classic example, meticulously documented by WIlliam Durham in his book Coevolution, is lactose tolerance... [continued later on the page and then to 32] * ...My generalization concerne dthe human species as a whole and, by implication, the wild Homo Sapiens fromn which we are all descended. It is as if I had said, 'Wolves are big, fierce carnivores that hunt in packs and bay at the moon', knowing full well that Pekineses and Yorkshire terriers belie it. The difference is that we have a seperate word, dog, for domestic wolf, but not for domestic human... [continued pg 33]... * Is lactose tolerance just the tip of the iceberg? Are our genomes riddled with evidences of domestication, affecting not just our biochemistry but our minds? Like Belyaev's domesticated foxes, and like the domesticated wolves that we call dogs, have we become tamer, more lovable, with the human equivalents of floppy ears, soppy faces and wagging tails? I leave you with that thought, and move hastily on. -Dawkins, 'The Ancestor's Tale' For what its worth....
2JGWeissman
It does not make sense to say that human reproduction does not select for the 'tamest' humans because it really selects for those most able to reproduce. Those are different levels of abstraction. The question is: are the 'tamest' humans the ones most able to reproduce, and therefore selected for by evolution?
andrewc10

I'd like to see this discussed as a top level post. Care to take a stab at it Smoofra?

andrewc20

I've yet to find a bug in the maths, but some people would find the unconventional style of delivery to be monumentally bad for a textbook. Me, I like the conversational, tangent taking, invective filled style, but I can imagine that others associate it with crank-ness.

0smoofra
The actual calculations are great. I haven't found a bug in them either. It's just the philosophy that annoys me.
0AlanCrowe
I think the answer is that PT:tLoS is not a textbook. It is part of a conversation amongst academics about the fundamentals of statistics. It gets mistaken for a textbook because it appears to be a description of the basics, but it actually participates in an argument about what the basics ought to be, and so includes the authors statement of what he thinks the basics are. Writing a textbook on Bayesian statistics is an important challenge, but you could not possibly follow the plan of PT:tLoS. Not only is the mathematics of chapter 2, proving Cox's theorem, too hard for first year undergraduates, but its perspective, of deducing the rules from general considerations, is too sophisticated. It cannot possible precede the elementary sampling theory of chapter 3 in an undergraduate curriculum.
andrewc00

I get the argument, but I assign a high value to self-determination. Like Arthur Dent, I don't want my brain replaced (unless by choice), even if the new brain is programmed to be ok with being replaced. Which ending did you pick in Deus Ex 2? I felt guilty gunning down JC and his brother, but it seemed the least wrong (according to my preferences) thing to do.

0dclayh
A rather vacuous statement, no? Isn't human nature funny* that we have qualms about behaving immorally in a sufficiently realistic simulation, yet can hear cold numbers about enormous real disutility (genocides, natural disasters, etc.) and feel nothing? That's speaking for myself incidentally, not casting aspersions on you. *(where by "funny" I mean "designed by a blind idiot god", naturally)
0John_Maxwell
I don't think you're being very fair to your new brain. Do you? I haven't played Deus Ex 2, sorry.
andrewc00

of the 102 people who cared about the ending to 3 Worlds Collide, 68 (66.6%) prefered to see the humans blow up Huygens, while 34 (33.3%) thought we'd be better off cooperating with the aliens and eating delicious babies.

I'm shocked. Are there any significant variations in the responses of babyeaters compared to freedom fighters to other questions?

Can I make a pro-babyeater argument?

Here is a dialogue between an imaginary six-year-old child named Dennis and myself.

Me: Hi Dennis, do you like broccoli?

Dennis: No, I hate it!

Me: But it's good for you, right?

Dennis: I don't care! It tastes awful!

Me: Would you like to like broccoli?

Dennis: No, I can't stand broccoli! That stuff is gross!

Me: What if I told you some magic words that would make it so that every piece of broccoli you ever ate would taste just like chocolate if you said them? Would you say the magic words?

Dennis: Well...

Me: You like chocola... (read more)

andrewc30

I choose (b) without the amnesia. Why? Because fuck Ming, that's why!

Or more seriously, by refusing to play Ming's bizzare little game you deny him the utility he gets from watching people agonise about what the best choice is. Turn it up to 11, Ming you pussy!

Or maybe I already chose (b) and can't remember...

andrewc40

I haven't read Jaynes's work on the subject, so I couldn't say.

  1. Point your browser at amazon
  2. Order ETJ's book.
  3. Wait approx one week for delivery
  4. Read it.

I don't mean to sound gushing but Jayne's writing on probability theory is the clearest, most grounded, and most entertaining material you will ever read on the subject. Even better than that weird AI dude. Seriously it's like trying to discuss the apocalypse without reading Revelations...

andrewc10

These surveys are fun!

  1. Fast food e.g. McDonalds
    1. Concerns about low nutritional value and food safety.
    2. If I have been drinking I will happily enjoy a fast food burger
    3. My son is going to be one of those kids who never gets to go to McDonalds unless its for a birthday party.
    4. No.
    5. N/A
    6. If their reasons seem rational I think that's cool. If their reasons seem to be founded on a selective evidence and hippy crap I think they are stupid.
    7. Friday nights are the killer, see question 2.
    8. Warm cheeseburgers taste good.
  2. I enjoy organic and free range animals, especial
... (read more)
andrewc10

I seem to remember reading somewhere that bacterial counts can be 26 times higher in cooked food than raw, before it's detectable by taste or smell; evidently evolution hasn't had enough time to tune our senses for detecting the quality of cooked proteins!

Sounds suspicious to me. OK, so maybe if you cook your meat in spices, you can't smell the bugs as easily. But cooking kills bugs, most spices kill bugs, salt stops bugs growing and you don't keep cooked meat for long enough for the surviving, or new bacteria to multiply to dangerous levels. If you had a credible reference for the claim I wouldn't be as suspicious.

2pjeby
Then why, when I was growing up, did they have all those "you'll be sorry" commercials about not leaving your cooked food out on the counter for more than a couple hours? It's got nothing to do with spices. Compare the smell of room temperature raw meat and cooked meat, left out for a couple hours: the cooked meat emits very little scent, period, while the raw meat still smells good. Just the fact that there's more scent means you can detect a finer-grained change in the scent... and the same thing goes for the flavor. So as long as the bacteria in question are changing the scent, you're going to be able to detect it more easily in the raw. It's pretty reasonable to assume that somewhere in our evolutionary ancestry, it was advantageous to be able to tell whether some borderline raw meat was safe for eating or not. Whereas, the opportunity for selection on detecting the safety of borderline cooked flesh has been somewhat more limited in scope, as well as being a more difficult task just due to the destruction of some of the meat's scent-producing capacity. I'm not clear on what you mean by "suspicious". I'm certainly not trying to persuade anyone to follow my dietary choices, here. I was just answering somebody else's question.
andrewc20

I'm not sure it's so clear cut.

They key point is that when you do the p value test you are determining p(data | null_hyp). This is certainly useful to calculate, but doesn't tell you the whole story about whether your data support any particular non-null hypotheses.

Chapter 17 of E.T. Jaynes' book provides a lively discussion of the limitations of traditional hypothesis testing, and is accessible enough that you can dive into it without having worked through the rest of the book.

The Cohen article cited below is nice but it's important to note it doesn't c... (read more)

andrewc60

A serious question deserves a serious answer so here it is, even though as a peripheral semi-lurker it's probably not relevant to your program. My motivations for coming here are entertainment on the one hand, and trawling for insights and ideas I can use at work.

I'm a rationalist, but not a Rationalist. I cringe at the idea of a self-identified Rationalist movement or organisation in the same way I cringe at Richard Dawkin's 'Bright' movement. I think there is a danger of a sort of philosophical isolationism where participants forget that rationalism and ... (read more)

0Paul Crowley
I agree with you about "Brights". There are of course plenty of rationalists who aren't here, but I think they would benefit from learning about some of the stuff we take for granted here. If there are other attempts to develop a complete (FSVO) and consistent programme for what rationalism is and how to achieve it, I'd like to know more about them.
andrewc10

Seems more like a political party in form than a cult per se. Putting aside the distasteful connotations of the word politics, most political parties are (or at least were at their inception) groupings of people who agree on a set of values and a philosophy.

Most cults don't permit the degree of participation from peripheral semi-lurkers who only fractionally accept the principles that this site does.

Anyway I voted the post down because these meta-discussions are boring.

2Paul Crowley
What bores you is obviously way too subjective for me to discuss further, but if you think that good is unlikely to come of this discussion, I'd be interested to know why.
andrewc50

We're mostly computer programmers who are looking for something else to read when we should be working.

Guilty has charged. It does seem more productive than tower defense, at any rate. Ciphergoth does have a point that polite discussions about rationality are an end in their own right.

3Paul Crowley
I don't mean that; I mean that they are a good sign that we might hope to achieve something genuinely useful.
andrewc10

The potential information you gain from the experiment is a currency. Discount that currency (or have a low estimate of it) and yeah you can frame the experiment as a waste of resources.

andrewc40

Did you write a cost function down for the various debate outcomes? The skew will inform whether overconfidence or underconfidence should be weighted differently.

andrewc10

OK, 'compression' is the wrong analogy as it implies that we don't lose any information. I'm not sure this is always a bad thing. I might have use of a particular theorem. Being the careful sort, I work through the proof. Satisfied, I add the theorem to my grab bag of tricks (yay product rule!). In a couple of weeks (hours even...) I have forgotten the details of the proof, but I have enough confidence in my own upvote of the theorem to keep using it. The details are no longer relevant unless some other evidence comes along that brings the theorem, and thus the 'proof' into question.

2whpearson
I think of it as memoisation rather than compression.
6Paul Crowley
This drives me crazy when it happens to me. * Someone: "Shall we invite X?" * Me: "No, X is bad news. I can't remember at all how I came to this conclusion, but I recently observed something and firmly set a bad news flag against X."
0AndySimpson
It may be useful shorthand to say "X is good", but when we forget the specific boundaries of that statement and only remember the shorthand, it becomes a liability. When we decide that the statement "Bayes' Theorem is valid, true, and useful in updating probabilities" collapses into "Bayes' Theorem is good," we invite the abuse of Bayes' Theorem. So I wouldn't say it's always a bad thing, but I'd say it introduces unnecessary ambiguity and contributes to sub-optimal moral reasoning.
andrewc100

pizza is good, seafood is bad

When I say something is good or bad ("yay doggies!") it's usually a kind of shorthand:

pizza is good == pizza tastes good and is fun to make and share

seafood is bad == most cheap seafood is reprocessed offcuts and gave me food poisoning once

yay doggies == I find canine companions to be beneficial for my exercise routine, useful for home security and fun to play with.

I suspect when most people use the words 'good' and 'bad' they are using just this kind of linguistic compression. Or is your point that once a 'good' l... (read more)

4jimrandomh
Exactly that. We may be able to recall our reasoning if we try to, but we're likely to throw in a few extra false justifications on top, and to forget about the other side.
andrewc30

Interesting idea: we support the underdog because if push came to shove we'd have a better chance of besting them than the top dog? There's a similar problem I remember from a kids brainteaser book. Three hunters are fighting a duel, with rifles, to the death. Each has one bullet. The first hunter has a 100% chance of making a killing shot, the second a 50% chance, the third a 10% chance. What is the inferior hunter's best strategy?

0Larks
The normal answer (fire away from either) only works if we assume the other hunters are vindictive, rather than rational. If we assume they behave rationally, then the third hunter should target the best.
andrewc20

More part-time and/or amateur scientists would be a good thing. This is more difficult today because there are fewer projects that one person, or even a handful of people can do on their own.

The canonical examples of 'big science' are the humane genome project, particle physics and atmospheric prediction. All three rely on massive international investment in infrastructure, the coordinated contributions of many specialists, and research programs with very long timelines, and where progress is mostly incremental (another bug sequenced, another 0.1 improveme... (read more)

0soreff
Also controlled fusion (both ICF and most magnetic bottle approaches)
andrewc60

By definition someone for whom religion or spirituality is intensely personal is going to avoid talking to you about it. The fact that that in all the conversations about religion you have ever had, no-one has declined to participate on those grounds is hardly evidence that these people don't exist.

Hmmm, methinks you are moderately wrong about religious organisations being on the wrong side of 'every' moral issue in American history. You've heard of the Quakers - funny hats, oatmeal, social justice and all that.

I just don't see modern secular churches (ok ... (read more)

andrewc110

Get them reading. Babies love being read to. Introduce them to the beauty of books, and the wonders of the public library system. Then, when they have the tools to navigate the repository of written knowledge, set them loose. Steer a little, but don't interfere.

andrewc40

I find your African aid example jarring, and my back of the envelope calculations suggest it is backwards.

Many aid organisations exist that focus their spending on funding education directly, or improving educational infrastructure. Educated children are more likely to escape peasant-hood, and more likely to ensure that their own children are educated. It seems probable to me that the potential net rationality (measured in rations or some such unit) produced from small donations is positive. Assuming we want to maximize humanity's mean rationality score, ... (read more)

2PhilGoetz
That's a good reply. But most people didn't make it in the thread on African aid. They just waltzed right into the "a life is a life is a life" assumption without even pointing it out. An attempt to seriously address the dilemma of African aid is much more than I can do in a blog post. My own reasoning on the matter has not hit bottom yet. Please don't interpret my post as being against aid to Africa, or as being my final rejection to aid from Africa.