All of apophenia's Comments + Replies

"15 words" is a secretly a verb rather than a noun. I definitely think discussion and clarification is good, although in this particular thread I'm sad to some people engaging solely in that and missing an opportunity to try out the exercise instead.

1wedrifid
As the thread creator you are entitled to specify the way you want the phrase to be used and what sort of replies you want. That said, it seems that the norms that you are attempting to create and enforce for this '15 words' activity don't belong on this site. It seems to amount to provoking and enforcing all the worst of the failures of critical thought that constantly crop up in the "Rationality" Quotes threads. Given as a premise that I hold that belief you could infer that my voting policy must be to downvote: * Any thread or comment requesting the 'action' "15 words" be performed. * Any attempt to criticise, suppress or dismiss clarifications, elaborations and analysis that crop up in response to quotes. * Any comment, regardless of overall merit, for which a minor clarification is necessary but would be prohibited or discouraged. Note that this applies to the ancestral quote by Pearl which I had previously upvoted. In a context of enforced uncriticality any deviation from accuracy becomes a critical failure. That isn't what you saw. You saw people engaging in that in addition to engaging with the the exercise. They lost no opportunity, you merely couldn't tolerate the critical engagement that is an integral part of discussion on a rationalist forum.

Adding a note because I said "quotes don't belong in this thread" elsewhere. However, this quote belongs in this thread, because

I've tried pretty hard to wrap my head around his ideology (he's incredibly long winded) and this is what I got from it

4Ishaan
Oh no, I'm sorry. That wasn't a direct quote, but a paraphrase of a set of long essays. I should not have formatted it like a quote. I've edited the original comment to better reflect this.

That would be great, but it would be more in the keeping of this thread to try and condense some section of this site to a dozen or so words. (Not leaving in everything, of course)

No, quotes don't belong in this thread, your intuition is wrong. This thread is about something closer to learning how to speak in original quotes.

-1Lumifer
Oh, I just went meta :-D

Great subset to have picked! Are there ways to shorten this style-wise or throw out technical vocabulary to make it accessible? Is some part of it less important than others, so that you can throw out ideas as well?

[This comment is no longer endorsed by its author]Reply

Could you break down that intuition? Why?

If you think that because it's short, I STRONGLY disagree--value added is not proportional to length.

If you think that because it's an exercise, I disagree, although that's a stronger case. We happen to be doing original research in exercise form, and evidence shows exercises work better than academic articles.

If you think that for some other reason, or something like the above but not quite, I'd love to hear it!

4Dorikka
Insufficient value add by the OP. Given that, insufficient expected value add in the comments. (I think that the Textbooks List and Procedural Knowledge Gaps lists belong in Main because the collection of knowledge by commenters is valuable enough, even though the OP is not a huge value add on its own. )
apophenia-30

thanks, this is exactly the case. a better objection is, it's not strictly true because things can be some complex net of the above cases, and it doesn't always break down into one of the four, but that doesn't fit in "15" words, and it's less important

edit: also it's possible in rare cases for things to be uncorrelated but causally connected

apophenia120

Chip & Dan Heath, Made to Stick:

Communicate one thing.

apophenia260

Judea Pearl, Causality:

If two things are correlated, there is causation. Either A causes B, B causes A, they have common cause, or they have a common effect you're conditioning on.

Edit: If two variables are correlated, there is causation. Either A causes B, B causes A, they have common cause, or they have a common effect you're conditioning on.

2Decius
http://xkcd.com/882/ Sometimes the cause is you've been looking at too many random data sets.
-1JackV
I think the problem may be what counts as correlated. If I toss two coins and both get heads, that's probably coincidence. If I toss two coins N times and get HH TT HH HH HH TT HH HH HH HH TT HH HH HH HH HH TT HH TT TT HH then there's probably a common cause of some sort. But real life is littered with things that look sort of correlated, like price of X and price of Y both (a) go up over time and (b) shoot up temporarily when the roads are closed, but are not otherwise correlated, and it's not clear when this should apply (even though I agree it's a good principle).
-3Eugine_Nier
Note, as I discuss here for this to be true you need to allow mathematical truths (and the laws of physics) to serve as causes.
-1johnswentworth
An alternative version which avoids most of the complaints in replies below: Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it's damn strong evidence! (Please reply if you remember either the exact wording or the source of that quote).
1Lumifer
I am confused, that doesn't seem to be true. Consider a sine wave. It can be observed in a great number of phenomena, from the sound produced by a tuning fork to the plot of temperature in mid-latitudes throughout the year. All measurements which produce something resembling a sine wave are correlated. Remember that correlation (well, at least Pearson's correlation -- I assume that's what is meant here) is invariant to linear transformations so different scale is not a problem.
0wedrifid
That doesn't seem to be strictly true. Of all the things that are correlated it would seem that there would be some that have none of the listed causal relationships. It is merely highly probable that one of those is the case.
4wedrifid
That's 28 words. Isn't it a bit long? (Still upvoted because the first sentence stands on its own with just 8 words.)

I'd be interested in writing this one. I don't your divide is a real one; it's basically the same skill. But it's still worth talking about in that context.

2evand
I've often found the examples in some rationality skill discussions difficult to relate to, even though the skill in question seems relevant. The context something is discussed in will make it more or less accessible to different people, even when it's the same skill and beneficial to all concerned.

I just launched the alpha of forget.io, a service for developing habits and recording data in self-experimentation. It texts you on your phone; you text it back. My stereotypical question (and the one I invented it for) is "How happy are you on a scale of 1-10?" Free to minicamp participants; costs a small fee for everyone else (although only enough to pay for the text messages).

0Document
Almost makes me annoyed that with T-Mobile I don't get a good enough signal to send text messages from home.

Absolutely. I can give better resources if you can be more specific as to what you're looking for.

I recommend The Checklist Manifesto first as an overview, as well as a basic understanding of akrasia, and trying and failing to make and use some checklists yourself.

The resources I spent most of my time with were very specific to what I was working on, and so I wouldn't recommend them. However, just in case someone finds it useful, Human Factors of Flight-Deck Checklists: The Normal Checklist draws attention to some common failure modes of checklists outside the checklist itself.

This is awesome. I might remove the examples, print down the rest of the list, and read it every morning when I get up and every night before going to sleep.

Interesting you should say that. About a week ago I simplified this into a more literal checklist designed to be used as part of a nightly wind-down, to see if it could maintain or instill habits. I designed the checklist based largely on empirical results from NASA's review of the factors for effectiveness of pre-flight safety checklists used by pilots, although I chased down a number of other ch... (read more)

0A1987dM
That's indeed what happened. That's just a hypocorism for my first name. I have never been in the armed forces. (I regret picking this nickname because it has generated confusion several times, but I've used it on the Internet ever since I was 12 and I'm kind of used to it.)
0A1987dM
This sounds interesting. I wasn't entirely serious, but I'm going to do this for real now. (I haven't decoded the rot13ed part, of course.)
4Metus
Can you point us to the more interesting checklist resources?

So, let's call the thing I'm talking about "winning". It is EXTREMELY helpful although not logically necessary to think winning is a good idea in order to win. I'm talking about how to convince people of that helpful step, so they can, next, learn how to win, and finally, apply the knowledge and win.

Either you're talking about a rationality that doesn't consist of winning, or I'm hearing: "You cannot use the 'winning' part of their brain to convince them that it is good to win, because the 'winning' part of them already knows that, it's ju... (read more)

0Kingreaper
That is in fact what I'm saying. It's rational to use the dark arts to convince people to be rational, and irrational to try and use rationality to try and persuade people to be rational. Yes it would be silly (ie. irrational) to think otherwise. However many otherwise rational people do think silly things.
  • Figure out your goals, and then make plans for when you get off work to optimize for those. Working as a cashier doesn't seem optimal for almost any purpose--maybe you could start by figuring out how to make money more efficiently, if that's your goal?
  • Learn the major system or memory palace. This would let you store a list of things to think about or do when at work. It's also quite easy to practice while at work, once you get the basics down. I'd recommend this first, if you really won't be allowed to write.
  • Solve problems. See what problem-solvin
... (read more)

Downvoted for "It's probably good for your brain somehow."

I can't give another suggestion unless you tell me what's undesirable about watching TED. There's a transcript on the site, but he uses graphics copiously, so I'm curious how useful it is. Less Wrong says it is too long to post as a comment.

1[anonymous]
I don't like watching videos of lectures. I thought perhaps you had more references on behavioral economics; if you don't, no big deal.

I've studied game theory and rationality, and I don't use game theory even when applying rationality to game design! I've used some of the nontechnical results (threats, from Shelling's book) to negotiate and precommit but that's about it. Has someone else used game theory in real life?

Unless someone else responds to this comment, my guess is that this topic is of greater interest to readers than it is of any use.

2satt
I'm reading Tom Slee's book No One Makes You Shop at Wal-Mart, and it applies game theory to some dressed-up toy examples (prisoner's dilemma, coordination games, etc.) to demonstrate why agents making individual decisions to maximize their utility (representing consumers using the power of individual choices) can fail to maximize their total utility (representing the failure of individual consumer choice to secure optimal outcomes for consumers). [Edit: I should note that Slee's book isn't very technical, so maybe it's more evidence against needing the full-blown mathematical machinery of game theory? I'm about 100 pages in and it hasn't gotten much more hardcore than tabulating the results of games in a payoff matrix and an informal explanation of Nash equilibrium.]
apophenia-10

By "via rationality" I assume you mean "via logical argument or sound science", which is an absurd substitution. Rationalists should win. The Dark Arts therefore are a type of instrumental rationality. That said, I still disagree, at least for some irrational people (let's roughly say anyone I could convince to eating a food that gives them a stomachache).

They can be convinced they should study [instrumental] rationality, it just requires you present unreasonably large amounts of evidence and don't use logical inference or experiment... (read more)

0Kingreaper
No, by via rationality, I mean via rationality. You cannot use the rational part of their brain to convince them that it is good to be rational, because the rational part of them already knows that, it's just not in charge. Convincing them, through the rational part of themselves, that eating a certain food gives them stomachache, is often easy. But that's a completely different problem, with no real relation to the problem I was talking about.

Did he say why he thought it was for people your (ChronoDAS's) age?

Check out most of behavioral economics. (I recommend Dan Gilbert on Ted, not linked to avoid trivial chances to waste time)

0[anonymous]
Yeah, I don't watch TED anymore. Any other specific suggestions?

A year ago, I hired Alicorn as a manger, to tell me to do the things I want to do. I am still employing her. I am externally motivated--I don't think we've yet tried giving her authority to pay my "salary" yet. This is mostly because I'm not sure what a reasonable motivational system would look like in that case. If anyone has a suggestion I consider reasonable, I'll give it a try.

In AI, this is known as the exploration/exploitation problem. You could try Googling "Multi-armed bandit" for an extremely theoretical view.

My biggest recommendation is to do a breadth-first search, using fermi calculations for value-of-information. If people would be interested, I could maybe write a guide on how to do this more concretely?

I found that what reduced my low-value leisure time most was doing something incredibly fun, by explicitly optimizing for it. Then when I went back to i.e. reading webcomics, it seemed mildly repulsive in that it wasn't actually that fun. I suspect, but am not sure that, having a large amount of fun when you have fun 1) Reduces the amount of time you'll spend having fun, in that it satiates your quota earlier. 2) Causes you to consciously choose how much leisure time to have, because it's hard to default into really fun behaviors as procrastination.

I also... (read more)

Meditation seemed useful to me. Other forms of "introspection" (cognitive biases, direct querying of "what would I do in situation X" in my brain, psychology) were more like "extrospection"--I'd infer my thoughts by my behavior. Meditation seemed to have a shorter inferential distance. I don't have a good non-introspective reason to believe this, although it did seem to get me over procrastination for the first time in weeks, and helped me graduate. I'll find out whether this continues to hold true as I resume meditation.

1Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg)
I like the word "extrospection." Learning better "extrospection" is probably just as useful in its own way as learning better introspection, and you're right that it uses different skills. It would be neat if it were possible to somehow link the two..

I suspect convincing people optimal philanthropy is a good idea is probably one of the most important things one could do. Maybe you should find out?

Find a cookbook, which often contains more fleshed-out recipes, instead of searching online. You can of course evaluate a cookbook for this property before you buy one. I find watching Alton Brown (Good Eats) helpful, in that he covers things too simple to be a recipe (eggs), mentions specific problems you might have, explains such things, and of course you can see it being done, which helps. He also explains some of the science behind cooking, which is fun. I assume other cooking shows fix many of these same problems (Julia Child? I haven't watched).... (read more)

It cost me three willpower points or so not to click the third.

Oh. Well, I guess I was wrong. Having two methods is still a good idea, since some people can't. In fact, I'd be almost certain that there's still lots of people neither method will work for.

Edward Tufte makes a similar point in his books ("The Visual Display of Quantitative Information", etc.)

Oh, so a useful answer for 2: Fix a tradeoff cost for time and money, adjusting for [un]pleasantness of the work. A good starting number for working adults is your hourly pay, especially if you actually have the option to work more or less hours. A good number for students is your future hourly pay.

0Mass_Driver
It's a convenient starting point, but I'm not sure how well it would perform in practice. Suppose your hourly pay rate is $20/hr. That's your marginal gross benefit of working an extra hour, but your marginal costs of working overtime are probably pretty high -- tacking on another two hours at the end of the workday might mean you have to buy a restaurant meal, take a cab, hire a sitter, etc. It also might just be exhausting enough that you pay an opportunity cost in terms of your ability to accomplish household/personal work in the evening, or even in terms of your ability to properly enjoy whatever entertainment you might have planned. If you have the ability to work additional hours and you don't, we might even say under the doctrine of revealed preference that your marginal costs must exceed your marginal benefits. And if, in practice, you don't work overtime because it would cost you more than you'd earn, it isn't much use to say that it's "worth" an hour of comparison shopping to save $20. If you skip the shopping and spend an extra $20, you won't choose to work overtime to make up the difference, you'll just buy less of other things or go into debt. Conversely, if you do go comparison shopping, you can probably schedule it at a time when you're least likely to suffer high opportunity/exhaustion costs, whereas you rarely have control over exactly when you work overtime, especially if you have to commute to work and/or deal with the public. Finally, "deliberation costs" are even fuzzier than information costs -- the problem isn't investing an hour of time in comparing prices, but investing a difficult-to-quantify chunk of your willpower and analytical skills in making a rational decision or in delaying your gratification for an appropriate period of time.

This is a good criticism. I'm more aware of the Typical Mind Fallacy than most people because I've switched modes of thinking several times--I'm not currently a visual thinker. I don't think people are good at visualizing, I think they're bad at numbers. I'm a mathematician, and I think other mathematicians I've met are generally bad with numbers. I also tried to make clear that this suffered from high uncertainty via the keywords "I think".

I don't read Discussion any more, but I found it the contents similar to the old monthly discussion thr... (read more)

1Snowyowl
Let me add another data point to your analysis: I'm a mathematician, and a visual thinker. I'm not particularly "good with numbers", in the sense that if someone says "1000 km" I have to translate that to "the size of France" before I can continue the conversation. Similarly with other units. So I think this technique might work well for me. I do know my times tables though.

There's lots of ways to keep track of expenses. I'd long been doing that in an excel spreadsheet.

Once you have them, you need to look at them in a cost-sensitive way. I don't see how writing down numbers accomplishes that.

3fr00t
Surely some people can better apply intuition to regular numbers? I actually just tried this graphing method and it didn't do anything for me at all. I actually caught myself trying to divide the ratio of area back into numbers. I've never needed more than a text document for working these things out... and only if there is more information than I can keep track of in my head. For example, if I'm considering purchasing a $100 pair of jeans I might weigh the value against, say, 13 ribeyes, or opportunity cost of 5 hours at work. I also keep a loose running estimate of expenditures to ensure I have a surplus over any period longer than a few weeks.
2Cyan
This aligns well with Andrew Gelman's constant refrain that graphs are almost always better than tables for conveying info.
0Douglas_Knight
Did you ever try graphing the data in the spreadsheet? I don't know if it would easy to do exactly the same graph you do, but you can certainly mimic the graphs of mint.com. I can see a lot of tradeoffs between the approaches, but nothing you've mentioned.
apophenia170

I think that this sounds like too much work to learn manually, so I am embracing transhumanism and making a compass belt.

0jaimeastorga2000
Wow, that's pretty cool! I just carry a marching compass in my purse for extra help in orientation.
0Dreaded_Anomaly
My own spatial reasoning abilities are very similar to what bogdanb describes, but ever since reading that Wired article I have thought about building one of those for myself.
0David_Gerard
I love that that site is called "Monkeys And Robots".
5SRStarin
This weekend I finally finished my compass anklet. It's pretty impressive how quickly the human brain can include a new sense. I'm looking forward to taking it geocaching!

As a side note, I was especially pleased by my motivation to work after I hung this by my work computer, which was better than expected--very little gets me to stop procrastinating. I found it particularly useful to think of myself as "paying off" things I had gotten instead of adding money. This felt a little like a deadline. It was also fun to think of myself as "working on" a particular thing, like a book I had recently purchased. I suppose one could do this in advance, but I am more motivated by things physically present than mot... (read more)

Here's a problem, for example formatting. Problems can be as easy or hard, and as complex or simple, as you think is reasonable.

Problem: I don't know how to find scientific data. I can get some common-knowledge stuff, but anything controversial (ex. global warming) or hard to locate by keyword (ex. how well normal distributions model actual data) I have a hard time finding. Especially for controversial items, I don't know how to evaluate the soundness of the study. What tools can I use to find and evaluate studies.

Progress/Effort made: I can find stud... (read more)

1David_Gerard
Wikipedia really is an excellent start, even as preparation for lukeprog's suggestions.
lukeprog140

How to find scientific data:

  1. Do some research to find out what the two leading entry-level university textbooks are on the subject. To do this, check online course syllabi to see what they're using. Or, just do some searching. After 60 seconds on Google and Amazon, I found these two textbooks on global warming. I dunno if they're the best, but they'll probably do. Be sure to get textbooks and not single-author academic studies, which may be highly skewed toward a particular position that is not mainstream.

  2. Skim the textbooks so that you get a sense for t

... (read more)

I have been asking around about this. No one seems to have heard of it. Are you perhaps thinking of Divia's anki cardsets?

0[anonymous]
Someone mentioned the idea at Burning Man. Possibly Jasen? I think it was mentioned at Future Camp. I only know that it was suggested that SIAI was preparing (two-week?) workshops for this Summer, and was anticipating many more attendees for that than Visiting Fellows.
0Kevin
It might have been Anna's habit cards.

Could you give a specific video? This looks like an interesting site.

2Liron
It's from Renting vs. Buying a home (the quote might be in the part 2 or "detailed analysis" followup videos). The videos there are on par with a first-rate college lecture. I believe Khan Academy is at the forefront of the growing anti-college revolution.

The genie can prove a yes answer to SAT, not a no answer (as far as we know about the nature of SAT). Is it allowed to fail? How can you tell if it lies and says no? This allows the communication of choosable bits by the AI.

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer

I hate that quote; it's completely backwards and depends entirely on selection effect.

Many ideas accepted as self-evident, both true and false, are first violently opposed. Many ideas violently opposed are first ridiculed. However, most ridiculed ideas stay ridiculed, and most violently opposed ideas stay violently opposed.

Similarly: If you win, before that they probably fought you. If they fight you, before that they probably laughed at you. And if they laugh at you, before that they probably ignored you.

5khafra
With the caveat that P(Truth|observation of one or more stages) < P(observation of one or more stages|Truth)

In grade school, I had a policy of telling people "no comment" or "that's classified" on any subject that could be sensitive. This is slightly better from the point of view of actually keeping secrets, since suddenly clamming up if people ask you if you've ever made a bomb is giving a bit too much information.

I think this is a useful way to think of things, so you don't worry about changing and committing another mistake--it's a good way to make yourself cost-sensitive to mistake duration.

As usual, I wish it was possible to upvote things more than once.

apophenia130

"Because this is the Internet, every argument was spun in a centrifuge instantly and reduced down into two wholly enraged, radically incompatible contingents, as opposed to the natural gradient which human beings actually occupy." -Tycho, Penny Arcade

Ah, you're entirely right. I didn't misremember--I read his blog rather religiously. I just apparently wasn't quite awake when I wrote what he was betting on.

I should also clarify that he didn't have anyone matching even a lesser amount in the case that the paper was indeed unsuccessful (which it appears to be as it stands, but Aaronson's bet gives it a while to correct problems). His goal, which didn't exactly work, was to get people to stop asking him about the paper. I say it didn't work, because he probably got even more people commenting on the bet, and still a large number asking about the paper.

And, mid-2010, Scott Aaronson also literally put down a large bet that P != NP.

3arundelo
If you're thinking of this, you're misremembering -- that bet (of $200,000) was that Vinay Deolalikar's recent P != NP paper would not win the Clay Millenium prize. (In the comments, Aaronson says "P≠NP is exactly the ‘expected’ answer!"; the bet was his way of keeping people from accusing him of rushing to judgment when he said that he didn't think the paper would turn out to successfully prove that expected answer even though he hadn't read the whole thing.)

I'm interested in continuing. I was working on the exercises you list when the study group started. Since I'm looking at the same stuff as everyone else now, and because it's a little tougher for me, I should be more active from here on out.

1Perplexed
Well, since it looks like there are only two or three of us, why don't we just give it up, and proceed on our own?
1Perplexed
Great. But that only makes two of us. Is anyone else still out there?

I'll be attending as well (A reminder: My real name is Zachary Vance). I will be flying in on the 29th to Reno and leaving the 8th. If anyone wants to meet up for rideshare, I'd be pleased. Post a comment here, or call me: (513) 549-5690.

I hope the costuming is serious. Now I want to wear white noise so people know who I am. P.S. Is there a way to get email notifications for responses to a comment? This would be terribly handy.

Edit: Also, if anyone would care to share a tent, it would be helpful to know today, the 28th. I would save $50 in check-on.

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