All of Balofsky's Comments + Replies

I'll concede the use of the word genocide, since you're right: substituting "killing a girl's entire family in front of her and then enslaving her" sounds just as bad.

The accounts of wars recorded in the books of the Prophets and Writings often describe women and children being killed in war by surrounding nations, such as Babylonia, Persia and Assyria; it was, revoltingly, a common practice. The rule of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20:14 only allows the Jews to kill adult males in the course of war, and forbids the murder of women and children. ... (read more)

I think you're partially right. If a certain ethical code is chosen simply because it is regarded as having a divine source, there would be something necessarily nihilistic in giving the said source a positive weighting. However, it would only deny rationality itself as having any intrinsic value: but if the super-intellectual divine has absolute, intrinsic value simply as a part of its definition, the ethical code deriving from it would as well, and certain actions would become intrinsically desirable.

My point here is that there are many people who regar... (read more)

7MixedNuts
Greta Christina, Will Atheism Become Easier?
8RolfAndreassen
Your reply is based on multiple misunderstandings. I cannot correct them all, but I will take a stab at the most obvious ones. First, "the Void" is not a nonrational component of morality, and the fact that you would attempt to thus make it fit your theological framework is... telling. Second, the sentence "if the super-intellectual divine has absolute, intrinsic value simply as a part of its definition, the ethical code deriving from it would as well" is nonsensical. Who is doing the defining? Either you are, in which case we're back to your choices; or the divine thing is, in which case it's saying "I'm good because I'm good, you better pay attention to me". That is seriously incoherent as a moral argument. You seem to think that saying "Moral code X is defined as a good moral code, therefore it is a good moral code" is ok if you wrap up the obvious circularity in verbiage.

-Regarding Maimonides, it should be noted that he considered such negative knowledge to be the product of positively acquired knowledge; it's the same as what I mentioned in the article on yedias hashelilah. This is why he cited 25 propositions from Aristotle in the Guide for the Perplexed, as supports for his negative theology.

-I cede your point about many rabbis not being pro-empirical; the Rabban Gamliel example is a good one. However, I'll add that very few Gaonim or Rishonim were willing to flatly deny clear empirical evidence, and were generally just... (read more)

3JoshuaZ
Well, the most obvious pointer if you want an early thing are all the sections of the Talmud dealing with the female menstrual cycle. More modern examples also exist. The Chofetz Chaim repeated the claim that lice spontaneously generate in the Mishnah Beruah as why one poskens that killing them is ok on Shabbat. He's only writing in the 1890s, 30 years after it was already conclusively established that spontaneous generation was wrong for microscopic organisms, and 200 hundred years after the scientific community had already established that it wasn't true for macroscopic organisms. This is only the most commonly used text for poskening halacha for all of Judaism today.

I'll put my comments into two parts, too:

-The reference in Kings II to the "Scroll of the Law" being rediscovered in the ruins of the Temple, refers to the Torah scroll that was considered to have been written by Moses himself personally and placed in the side of the Ark, described towards the end of Deuteronomy. The rediscovery in the Temple ruins by Hilkiah refers to this scroll having been hidden away by King Menashe in an earlier period, and its acceptance is similar to symbolic acceptance-ceremonies (for lack of a better word) scattered thro... (read more)

4JoshuaZ
This is a common apologetic claim. It both doesn't fit with the text and isn't actually relevant. No claim is made in the text that it is a Sefer Torah from Moses. The priest just shows up with a book he says was found, and it is clear in the text that neither Josiah nor Shaphan have any idea what this object is. Shaphan refers to it just as a sefer not hasefer, it is a book, not the book. Neither Josiah or Shaphan seem to know much about it at all. How good was the tradition when neither the King nor one of his major scribes knows even what the text in question is? And the episode isn't brief at all, the reign of Josiah is a major section of Kings. One and a half chapters are devoted to Josiah's reign, and one isn't talking about a text that at all gives details for major events. Moreover, the writer of Kings repeatedly references a non-extant more detailed text about the monarchs, (23:28 is one mention), so this is the set of events that the writer considers important. Frankly, I don't think that the text in question was the Torah as we currently have it. But it doesn't need to be: it just matters that something major (the text of Deuteronomy is a common hypothesis among scholars) was completely missing to the point where almost no one knows what it is. That strongly undermines any sort of Kuzaritic claim. This is both not true (the argument wasn't popular until after the Kuzari was written) and essentially irrelevant. While I can see how a deeply religious Jew would think this matters (since halachah is frequently determined by tradition and the practice of Klal Yisrael as a whole), how commonly accepted a specific theological argument is has no useful bearing on whether or not it is correct unless one has already accepted pretty much all of normative Orthodox Judaism. And this belief exists essentially to explain the apparent fact that the miracles get tinier and tinier. Nowhere even in the Biblical text does God ever say "oh, and I'll use subtler and subtler

-I say "below the belt," because I imagine that there are individuals of the Less Wrong community who strongly support SIAI's work and goals concerning AI, but who simultaneously would not consider such AI creations to be of greater moral value than humans, and I didn't want these individuals to think that I was making an assumption about their ethical opinions based on their support of AI research.

-Yes, it is largely because of disapproval of the conclusions, but I disapprove of the conclusions because the conclusions are not rational in the fa... (read more)

0drethelin
How do you define a living entity?
4pedanterrific
I normally hate to do this, but Nonsentient Optimizers says it better than I could. If you're building an AI as a tool, don't make it a person. That's a question of values, though. I don't value magnitude of consciousness; if baboons were uplifted to be more intelligent than humans on average, I would still value humans more.

Thank you for continuing to engage.

Genocide is the correct term for what the Jewish people do in Numbers 31. After the war is over, Moses discovers that the military commanders have spared the women and children, and is wroth. Or, from the New International Version:

Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LOR

... (read more)

I'll break this down into two response, because of the length.

-Assuming the locust-thing is an apologetic gloss doesn't seem warranted. Locusts have been a common food source in many parts of Asia and Africa for thousands of years, and the fact that the Torah permits the consumption of certain locusts strongly implies that they were being eaten. It seems fair to estimate that the people eating these locusts would have known how many legs they really had, regardless of illiteracy and poor knowledge of animal biology.

-I'm not claiming that the Tanakh itself ... (read more)

It seems fair to estimate that the people eating these locusts would have known how many legs they really had

Any large text that makes scientific claims makes errors. A modern science textbook averages about 14 errors. Ancient Greek texts are full of erroneous factual claims that they could have easily checked. Aristotle claimed that men had more teeth than women. Had such a claim been in the Torah, there would be later commentary explaining that in women, certain teeth don't count as teeth.

3pedanterrific
Why would this be below the belt? If "greater consciousness" is what you value, it seems self-evidently true. Is there a reason for this other than disapproval of the conclusions?

Interesting, I'll look into it. I didn't meant to retract my introduction, by the way- hit the wrong button.

0beoShaffer
It happens.

Hi!

I'm Balofsky (keeping first name blank), and I am a 24 year old undergraduate student in St. Paul, Minnesota. Interests include anything liberal art-ish, Judaism, politics and memorizing random facts I'll probably never need in real life.

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0gwern
Re beoShaffer's mention of Anki, if you haven't heard of it before, it's a suggestion to use spaced repetition.
2beoShaffer
Have you tried Anki?