All of Big Steve's Comments + Replies

lmao epic, TAG. somehow - both you and me found this 5 year old article & commented on it in the past  6 hours

Your solution doesn't work, because you assume there is a lawlike phenomenon. Goodman wrote, "Plainly, then, we must look for a way of distinguishing lawlike from accidental statements." This means you can't just assume there is a lawlike phenomenon. Rather, you must offer some means of distinguishing lawlike from accidental phenomena.

2Anders_H
I don't think the existence of lawlike phenomena is controversial, at least not on this forum. Otherwise, how do you account for the remarkable patterns to our observations?  Of course, it is not possible to determine what those phenomena are, but I don't think my solution requires this. It just requires that our sensory algorithm responds the same way every time. 

Why should it matter who Big Steve is?

Alfred, to be frank, your article is unclear and poorly written. Dagon, for example, thinks the political/non-political examples matter. They think that partly because your article is unclear. You should take more seriously their confusion as what-not-to-do in the future. Write with greater clarity.

I think you write unclearly on semi-intentional purpose. Your communication strategy seems to be: write something unclear, then explain why the audience (in this case commenters) misunderstood you. That's how you responded t... (read more)

I think your article is poorly written, and its unclarity is causing confusion between you, me, and the others.

Discourse norms, some of which govern who is allowed in the conversation, are relevant. It is not a non sequitur. It is relevant, because you are making normative claims about discourse and what kinds of claims interlocutors are supposed to begin with. Specifically, one claim you are making is that interlocutors are supposed to begin with content-relevant, information-optimized claims.

I've offered a contrary consideration. Some interlocutors right... (read more)

1Alfred
argon, please use a consistent name across all media. if I had known this Big Steve account was you, it would have saved me a lot of time.

I think you are right about the non-usefulness of the concept "epistemic stalling", although I think there are good-faith and sincere uses for the phenomenon Alfred is discussing, the phenomenon of making identity-based claims like "but you're white". You and I can let bygones by bygones about it while agreeing that this post needs to be revised with an enriched description of the intended phenomenon. As written, the post does not adequately describe its subject, and this lack of clarity leads to confusion and misinterpretation. Furthermore, the (sparse) content that is clear seems wrong and beside the point. Anyway, good discussion we had. Until next time!

Do you think romantic, relationship-based examples would help? Like, a boyfriend who gets a text, then his partner asks about that text, but then the boyfriend responds with something like "Omgosh, you are too nosy!" That seems a little bit like epistemic stalling (although, personally, I think Alfred is wrong about epistemic stalling).

So, I guess I am addressing your comment with two questions. First, do you think Alfred will think that my example is an example of epistemic stalling? Second, given what Alfred wrote about epistemic stalling, do you personally think my example should qualify as an example of epistemic stalling?

4Dagon
I'm not sure whether "epistemic stalling" is a useful categorization of these kinds of bad-faith discussions.  Mostly, I think the examples are not about epistmology, but about dominance and emotional reactions.  I suspect romantic examples will also be of that form. I don't think "stalling" is the right focus, even if we do address these as bad-faith discussion mechanisms.  I think the salient feature is misdirection - intended not to delay, but to avoid the important question altogether.

To follow-up, you'll need to justify that "they should start the argument with what would best rebut the same claim by someone who was 'allowed in the discourse'". That's a normative claim that your original post doesn't justify. It likely can be justified, but you haven't yet done that. 

Also, their starting with the claim that would be the best rebuttal is an act of allowing you into the discourse. If they believe you aren't allowed in the discourse, they won't let you in. So, your justification of the normative claim needs to remain sensitive to their sincerely held beliefs about the relevant discursive norms. 

They aren't trying to stall for time. They are trying to maintain appropriate boundaries.

1Alfred
the burden of evidence doesn't change by who is "allowed" into a discussion. if I make a claim about the migration patterns of birds the evidence required for this claim is going to be the same regardless of who is hearing it. if I make a claim about the inequalities in society this doesn't change. they're both empirical claims and both have the same kinds of evidential requirements. if someone is trying to "maintain appropriate boundaries", whatever that means, making empirical claims is probably the opposite of that. this idea of being "allowed in the discourse" is a nonsequitur. if you need to be "allowed" to make truth claims, what you're doing isn't a truthseeking or epistemic practice, so it's not something that terms relating to epistemic hygiene describe in any sense and only relevant in as an instance of misinterpretation. this is akin to saying that if someone says you can't dance with them at an event that a canned line about their refusal to provide evidence, such as "you can google it" — perhaps "it" refers to the dance steps — doesn't necessarily describe bad epistemic practice. well, duh. but dancing isn't an epistemic activity, so it's a left-field objection anyway.

That is a good point. Below, I related epistemic stalling to intentionality, but I also agree with your response. The reason why people say things like "but you're white" often isn't to offer some form of argumentative justification. Rather, people say those things to function like barriers to entry: only non-whites allowed.

There are, of course, ethical issues around that kind of response, but this post is about the pragmatics of speech, not its ethics. Still, this post seems to get wrong, as you point out, the actual pragmatics of why people do what is called "epistemic stalling".

You should address the relationship between intention and stalling. Using your example, suppose I'm the 'stalling' objector, but I sincerely believe whiteness matters and haven't considered how to respond to a non-white person making the objection. I would give all the same objections you mentioned, but with sincerity. Does this count as epistemic stalling? 

In your discussion here, intentionality is entirely unmentioned and absent. Intentionality's relationship to epistemic stalling is important, because half of your post is about how to avoid epistem... (read more)

1Alfred
people who procrastinate, including me and probably you and most people reading this, do so in a semi-intentional state where they're half-aware and might be more aware if prompted but can easily suppress awareness further too. intention is not binary. at the point of performance, procrastinators (so, all of us) aren't actively thinking "I'm procrastinating" nor are they aware that they're explicitly making choices to do that. but, if a person interrupts them to let them know they're doing that, their consciousness might be shaken enough to stop the behavior. (of course, we can train ourselves to do that too, and it's obviously much harder.) I didn't address intentionality because I don't think the binary states of intentional or unintentional are helpful in stopping it. most people don't make fallacies or other acts of bad epistemic practice in completely intentional or completely unintentional modes. they often have some vague awareness that what they're doing is off but, like someone who is procrastinating, they're probably not going to scrutinize their intentions further unless they have the vocabulary and concepts to do so quickly. this purpose of post is to provide both.