All of blake8086's Comments + Replies

I think you make a good point. I kind of cheated in order to resolve the story quickly. I think you still have this problem that a sufficiently powerful black box can potentially tell the difference between training and reality, and it also has to have a perfectly innocuous function it's optimizing for, or you can have negative consequences. For instance, a GPT-n that optimizes for "continuable outputs" sounds pretty good, but could lead to this kind of problem.

I've been reading about the difficult problem of building an intelligent agent A that can prove a more intelligent version of itself, A', will behave according to A's values. It made me start wondering: what does it mean when a person "proves" something to themselves or others? Is it the mental state change that's important? The external manipulation of symbols?

0MrMind
Proof, in this case, means that using only a restricted set of rules, you are able to rewrite a set of initial assumptions to get the desired conclusion. The rules are supposed to conserve, every time they are used, the truth status of the assertions they are applied to. In this case, if the derivation is correct and both agents believe in the same environment logic, then the mental state change should be a consequence of the strict symbols manipulation. Note that 'two agents' might mean 'the same agent in the past and in the future of the derivation'.

I think you would actually want to use hydrogen. It would essentially be a really powerful light gas gun.

That's not really related though. I'm asking "what if you build a gun with nukes as propellant?", not "what if you build a plane that rocket jumps through air/space?". The idea is to impart the highest fraction of a single bomb's energy onto a payload. Orion is pretty wasteful in terms of energy conversion.

I think all you need to do to release the payload is to stop flicking it, so that part should be easy.

1Elo
I guess, so: 1. how much crushing centrifugal G force can the thing you are trying to send into space handle, 2. how much momentum does it take to leave the earth's atmosphere from ground-level 3. could you combine this method and another propulsion method?

If one were to build a cannon (say a large, thick pipe buried deep underground) and use a nuclear bomb as propellant, could they achieve anything interesting? For example, boost a first stage payload to orbit, or perhaps Earth escape velocity? The only prior art I know of for this is the Pascal-B nuclear test shot.

0Gunnar_Zarncke
See also space gun.
8gwern
Nuclear space guns have been proposed. Aside from the manhole cover: http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/03/150-kiloton-nuclear-verne-gun.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/sea-based-launch-option-for-nuclear.html (This appears in Hannu's Quantum Thief trilogy, incidentally.)
4Nornagest
I don't think a working model of this would look much like a cannon. Nukes don't directly produce (much of) a shockwave; most of the shock comes from everything in the vicinity of the warhead absorbing a massive dose of prompt gamma and/or loose neutrons and suddenly deciding that all its atoms really need to be over there. So if you had a payload backed right against a nuke, even if it managed to survive the explosion, it wouldn't convert much of its power into velocity; Orion gets its power by vaporizing the outer layers of the pusher plate or a layer of reaction mass sprayed on it. But it might be possible, nonetheless. The thing I have in mind might look something like a large chamber full of water with a nuke in the center of it, connected by some plumbing to the launch tube with the payload. Initiate the nuke, the water flashes into steam, the expanding steam drives the payload. Tricky part would be controlling the acceleration for a (relatively) smooth launch with minimal wasted energy. (And, of course, you're left with a giant plume of radioactive steam that you still need to deal with.)
1Lumifer
Both your barrel and your payload need to be able to survive being at the epicenter of a nuclear explosion. Spitting jets of molten metal into space isn't particularly useful.
0Elo
A variation - an acceleration chamber like a synchrotron (or other circular acceleration system), with a flick to release a payload towards space. not sure if it would be viable on something heavier than a particle, and what would happen. to the payload being stretched in various G-forces, or how high you would get. (not being up on my physics enough to say if it would be catastrophic or viable)
4James_Miller
See Project Orion. It's motto was "Mars by 1965, Saturn by 1970."

I'm really glad to see this post. I think you hit most of the major points, and made most of the strong arguments in favor. Might I recommend you add a section rebutting arguments against? I have advocated for this to many of my friends, and I've heard:

  • Isn't this a lot like slavery? Or some kind of fractional slavery?
  • How can young children enter into a contract like this that might bind them for the rest of their lives without getting fucked over?
  • What prevents parents from maliciously selling all of their child's future income for short-term gain? (And
... (read more)
0Dias
Hmm, an interesting combination of arguments! I'll have to think about rebuttals. My concern is that by explicitly mentioning arguments that I think are silly we give them a certain level of credence. In some cases I've tried to indirectly address them, but maybe I should put more work into that. Alternatively I could write a separate 'Common Objections' article. Awesome! I don't have much in the way of practical ideas here, beyond talking about it, writing about it, and posting links in high-readership locations.

Why don't you tell him the reasons you don't want him to swear? I assume you have reasons, but maybe you've never needed to articulate them before. I'm guessing your reason is something along the lines of "lower status people swear, I don't want people to think of you as lower status". I imagine a high IQ 10-year-old can understand that.

Also, if swear words are a fun and exciting thing to him, why not teach him all the swear words so he can increase his status among his friends?

5James_Miller
Fear of this happening: Vice Principal: "Your teacher says you said the word.....which is very hateful towards....." Child: "Yes, I learned it from my dad."
blake8086-10

I really enjoyed that.

Instead of simply saying "fight confirmation bias", try to give reasons why to fight confirmation bias. Being less wrong is often not rewarding enough for people.

Fighting confirmation bias makes you sexy! It will make your peers all think you're smart! You'll feel better about yourself!

You say "many of us among the academically gifted derive a huge amount of self-worth from thinking that WE ARE RIGHT." How could you redirect some of that perceived potential self-worth gain into fighting confirmation bias?

-3James_Miller
Excellent idea!

I feel like the dragon parable correctly shows, if anything, negative progress being made towards dealing with the dragon, until suddenly, it is dealt with. I suppose one difference is that the anti-dragon projectile seems so much more achievable and imaginable than a cure for aging.

1Punoxysm
Right; literally having a "magic bullet" solve the problem of the story, even if it takes a lot of development, is another flaw of the story.

http://systemsandus.com/ uses + and - to denote it, and I guess they just assume you can mostly keep track. I feel like it works on simple diagrams.

I don't think your game is sequential, if Player 2 doesn't know Player 1's move.

You really have two games:

Game 1: Sequential game of Player 1 chooses A or B/C, and determines whether game 2 occurs.

Game 2: Simultaneous game of Player 2 maybe choosing X or Y, against Player 1's unknown selection of B/C.

edit: And the equilibrium case for Player 1 in the second game is an expected payout of 2, so he should always choose A.

I think you can just compute the Nash Equilibria. For example, use this site: http://banach.lse.ac.uk/

The answer appears to be "always pick A". Player 2 will never get to move.

0satt
Things don't feel so simple to me. (A, X) is a Nash equilibrium (and the only pure strategy NE for this game), but is nonetheless unsatisfactory to me; if player 1 compares that pure strategy against the mixed strategy proposed by Wei_Dai, they'll choose to play Wei_Dai's strategy instead. Nash equilibrium doesn't seem to be a strong enough requirement ("solution concept") to force a plausible-looking solution. [Edit: oops, disregard this paragraph. I misinterpreted Wei_Dai's solution so switching to it from the NE pure equilibrium won't actually get player A a better payoff.] (I also tried computing the mixed strategy NE by finding the player 1 move probabilities that maximized their expected return, but obtained a contradiction! Maybe I screwed up the maths.)
2James_Miller
In the Nash equilibrium, what is Player 2's belief if he gets to move? Also, the link you gave is for solving simultaneous move games, and the game I presented is a sequential move game.