All of Bo102010's Comments + Replies

Others have made these points, but here are my top comments:

  • The site was best when there was a new, high-quality post from a respected community member every day or two.
  • The ban on politics means that a lot of interesting discussion migrates elsewhere, e.g. to Scott's blog.
  • The site's current structure - posts vs. comments seems dated. I'd like to try something like discourse.org?

It requires some status and a consistent record of not being a jerk to do this (or to convince yourself to do this), but: "[Big Talker] has been talking for 2 hours, and [Small Talker] hasn't really had much opportunity to talk about [thing Small Talker does]. Mind if we hear from [Small Talker] for a bit? "

Reading SSC brings back the feeling I got when I first discovered Less Wrong (right after the split with Overcoming Bias, when there were still sequences being posted). Here's this extremely intelligent and articulate guy, posting very insightful things on topics I didn't even know I was interested in -- and he's doing it pretty regularly!

I like what Less Wrong has evolved into in the post-Sequences era, but reading Less Wrong today produces a very different feeling from when it did early on.

I enjoyed the episode also. The show is consistently solid, which is quite impressive - I don't think there's been an episode that's really low quality. The peaks aren't very high, but there are no valleys to speak of...

There a laughable P vs. NP-themed episode in a previous season in which mathematicians use their proof to hack computers, but other than that the episode was watchable.

3VAuroch
Other than the tacit assumption in that episode that a resolution to P v. NP would necessarily be P=NP, that episode seemed on the money to me. The uses they mentioned for crypto that could be broken with a fast NP-solver are all real things.

Great post!

Others have mentioned the HPMOR-style "take a poll of different aspects of your personality," which I have found to be entertaining and useful.

I'd also like to endorse the method for troubleshooting. I got the idea from Ridiculous Fish's blog post from 3 years ago.

When I have a technical problem I'm stuck on, I try to ask myself "What would someone who's smarter than me do?" This is really just "imagine a parody version of person x and see if that causes you to think about the problem in a different way."

I like to c... (read more)

I am reluctantly someone who pretty much doesn't care about what happens after I die. This is a position I that I don't necessarily endorse, and if I could easily self-modify into the sort of person who did care I would.

I don't think this makes me a monster. I basically behave the same way as people who claim they do care about what happens after they die. That is, I have plans for what happens to my assets if I die. I have life insurance ("free" through work) that pays to my wife if I die. I wouldn't take a billion dollars on the condition that ... (read more)

10 people said "Drug C: reduces the number of headaches per year from 100 to 60. It costs $100 per year" over "Drug B: reduces the number of headaches per year from 100 to 50. It costs $100 per year" on CFAR question #4...

I said "Drug A: reduces the number of headaches per year from 100 to 30. It costs $350 per year" personally. I think there's a case for B, maybe, but who picks C?

Bo102010-20

Not to mention that any candidate up to the task likely has more lucrative alternatives...

I'm genuinely curious why hg00's amended comment is now even more downvoted? And why my advice is also? Generally I take downvotes to mean "Would not like to read more of such comments at Less Wrong," but I'm a little puzzled at these.

I didn't think it was quite fair that your comment was downvoted to -2, but then I read the sentence "When women feel desperate, they cry about it."

While I think your comment was overall constructive to the discussion, that kind of thing is a turnoff. I assume you meant it in the best possible way, but I would encourage you to avoid that particular construction in the future.

1Bo102010
I'm genuinely curious why hg00's amended comment is now even more downvoted? And why my advice is also? Generally I take downvotes to mean "Would not like to read more of such comments at Less Wrong," but I'm a little puzzled at these.

Great stuff! My wife and I married at the St. Louis Science Center in the middle of the day in a 30 second ceremony. We were in front of a wall painted with e = m * c^2 . Afterward we went to see a dinosaur exhibit.

Bo102010160

I saw someone reading The Selfish Gene on an airplane the other day, and a similar thought came to mind. I thought, "Ah, I should say hello to this person when we get off the plane. Failing that, give the official rationalist nod of affirmation. Go science!" (I missed the person leaving while trying to get to my book bag in the overhead compartment).

After, I decided that I would have had a similar urge to express my admiration to anyone I saw reading any Dawkins book, except the God Delusion. I'm happy to have a conversation with a fellow science lover. Not nearly as much with a fellow God hater.

Shmi100

I'm happy to have a conversation with a fellow science lover. Not nearly as much with a fellow God hater.

upvoted for this.

Project Euler problem 384. I thought I'd be able to crack it in an afternoon, but a couple week's later I'm still stumped. I finally moved to another problem in the hopes of being able to return to 384 with fresh eyes, but no joy just yet.

I'm not sure if there's a lesson to learn from the failure, except that to do a good estimate about how much work something will take often itself requires a bit of work.

0BlazeOrangeDeer
At first glance I see a few sub-problems that don't look hard, but the list s(n) will get huge but have a ton of repetition so you could just make a list of occurrences of each number instead of just the list of s(n), and this would make finding the nth occurrence trivial. You wouldn't need to keep much of the list, only the fibonacci numbers.
1RobertLumley
Wow. That looks difficult.

Yeah. It pains me to say that I understand the principle, but that I always seem to be able to convince myself that just this once I should go ahead and knock out some other semi-trivial task outside of normal working hours. Later it seems obvious that I have not internalized the lessons of Micro 101.

I think there's some ego-stoking going on - "I am the only person who can be relied upon to complete this task properly! Step aside, mortals, and I will wow you with my productivity."

How to fix it? Cthulhoo's comment below seems like a good start - I... (read more)

3CronoDAS
Your standards are too high. My father is one of the most generally competent people I know, but he's also a one-finger typist. He once tried to get help in a tech support chat room, and the support person kept thinking he was AFK because he typed so slowly.

Delegating tasks. At work we're now short-staffed, and I've had to pick up work from a couple people.

Unfortunately, the principle of comparative advantage says that I should focus on the tasks where I'm most effective. Where I run into trouble is handing things off when I need to do just that. What if the other person screws it up, or worse, does it really inefficiently?

It makes my skin crawl to think of people bumbling around in Excel for 3 hours on a task I could complete in 1, so much so that I end up working on easy-but-time-consuming stuff when I should be at home looking at things on the Internet.

9CronoDAS
My Econ 101 class talked about this when they discussed comparative advantage and opportunity costs. Even if the other guy will do what you want done inefficiently (compared to you), what really matters is what each of you would be doing instead. If you have something better to do and they don't, then it's more efficient overall to let them go ahead and do something poorly than let that task take up your own, more productive time.
1Cthulhoo
I have a similar problem. I just tend to divide people in two categories: trust / don't trust. I'm perfectly fine with delegating tasks to people in the first group, but have a hard time to convince myself to delegate something to people in the second group (even something so simple that a monkey could have done it).

Physics and recreational mathematics + computer science improved my mental abilities.

I took Physics for Engineers as a freshman in college. It's clear in retrospect that this class was designed to accomplish several things:

  • Force students who breezed through high school with little effort to work hard to maintain a good grade.

  • Weed out the students who don't have the intellectual firepower or stamina for engineering.

  • Teach a particular problem solving methodology. To get decent marks on a problem set, you had to always draw a diagram, always start with

... (read more)

Really? I felt like Dan GIlbert's book was a bad attempt at writing a Dave Barry book, with some good and entertaining science thrown in. I enjoyed the book, but every paragraph seemed to have a joke shoe-horned in.

However, when I consulted the text to find an example, I couldn't readily find one. Which is amusing, as part of the book deals with how inaccurate impressions can form lasting memories.

Still, I think lukeprog should aspire to a level higher than Gilbert.

0fburnaby
Hmm.. Yes you might be right that lukeprog could do better. He's already clearer, though less engaging for a popular audience. But I don't think necessarily that learning the tricks that are so obvious in Gilbert precludes him from doing better. As my guitar teacher used to say: "you have to learn the theory, drive the theory into your head, and then forget it when the time comes to really play". Also, it might be perfect for the rest of us mere mortals.

One mistake I noticed when tutoring a high school student was what I might call "failure to take seriously the rules."

We were studying Geometry, and many times the student would make a big assumption (e.g. the angle is 90 degrees) without noting or questioning whether it was true.

When I'd ask him about it, he would say "Look at it, it must be 90 degrees!" or "If it's 90 degrees, then I can solve this other part over here and be finished." When I'd explain "You can't assume it's 90 degrees," or "You're assuming w... (read more)

Ehrman's books are all good.

Is Loftus's second book better than "Why I Became An Atheist"? I read that and came out thinking: (a) he is an unsympathetic character, (b) he spends his time in intellectual gutters for no reason, and (c) my goodness these sophisticated arguments for Christianity that he thoroughly engages are stupid.

6SilasBarta
That's the one! Thanks for catching that. The relevant quote and my reaction were:

Voting for the Christian / "Christian" half is open - see Leah's site.

I had fun figuring these out. Once it's done I'd be interested to see what criteria LW users used to determine someone's real beliefs...

I asked Leah about participating in her test. I think I will find it challenging the emulate a Christian's viewpoint, instead of mocking it.

That is, normally when I've examined Christian thought, I've approached it from the pretense "let me see where this fails."

I'm interested to see if I can construct an argument that I myself as an atheist would find at least superficially compelling - that is, I want to avoid doing what pretty much every popular Christianity book does.

8Paul Crowley
If you try to present radically better arguments for Christianity than you think most Christians present, you will sound out of step with the rest of the panel to an audience of Christian judges.

Your first paragraph adequately summarizes the sequel to this book as well.

In the end, every programming language, no matter how pure and pretty, gets turns into a bunch of loads, stores, and gotos...

I find that there's a lot of good techniques to be learned from FP, but the supposed mathematical purity of it kind of bores me.

(http://docs.python.org/py3k/howto/functional.html) has some nice tricks in Python.

Bo102010120

I used to have a hobby of reading Christian apologetics to get a better understanding of how the other side lives. I got some useful insights from this, e.g. Donald Miler's Blue Like Jazz was eye-opening for me in that it helped me understand better the psychology of religious faith. However, most books were a slog and I eventually found more entertaining uses for my time.

Today I saw that a workmate of mine was reading Lee Strobel's The Case For Faith earlier. My policy is to not discuss politics or religion at work, so I didn't bring it up there.

I hadn't ... (read more)

4NancyLebovitz
Running Towards the Gunshots: A Few Words about Joan of Arc was the first thing which gave me a feeling of why anyone would want to be Catholic. However, that's the emotional side, not the arguments. tl, dr (and be warned, the piece is highly political): Joan of Arc is the patron saint of disaffected Catholics-- not only does the rant give a vivid picture of what it's like to love Catholicism, it's so large and so old that there's a reasonable chance that it will have something to suit a very wide range of people.

Would a patient thus do better to research his or her symptoms online before going to the doctor's office, and then insisting on the treatment provided?

If so is there a good place to do this research? Are there good websites that are usually informed with up-to-date research on a variety of topics? I haven't had a health issue that's needed such research in recent memory, but if I did I would probably type my symptoms into Google alongside technical sounding words like "incidence," "epidemiology," and "differential diagnosis."

8Scott Alexander
Symptom checker programs and Google are good preliminary resources, especially if you want to figure out whether it's worth your time going to the doctor or not for something mild. If you Google your symptoms, then go to the doctor and insist you have whatever disease came up on top, and tell the doctor ey's wrong if ey disagrees or wants to do further tests, then you become the kind of patient who doctors tell hilarious stories about in hospital cafeterias. These stories are rarely hilarious for the patient involved unless they have a very masochistic sense of humor. The more honest symptom checkers will give you a list of many possible conditions that could be causing your symptoms. Unless you have something really obvious, most doctors won't be able to do better than a list until they've done tests. Symptom checkers usually don't adjust for your age, your past history, your current medications, or many other things that are very important for serious illnesses, and they can only give a very probabilistic result. They have their place but in a serious condition are no replacement for a doctor.
0CronoDAS
I don't know how good it actually is, but wrongdiagnosis.com appears to be trying to do this...
1jimrandomh
If you're willing and able to read medical research directly, search PubMed: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed.

I think Eliezer's point is that it could be evolutionary and not cultural.

The interesting thing is that you can become a leader by just telling people to do stuff, and then they comply.

2David_Allen
I can't say much about the monkey tribe example that Eliezer quoted -- for example I don't know if it is true or if it implies anything about human evolution -- but I have found that people are remarkably adaptable with cultural conditioning. I would also like to point out that there is a difference between people doing what you tell them and people only working if you explicitly tell them to; it is possible for people to be receptive to commands and yet be self directed. My current work environment is full of examples.
1DanArmak
If true, that still tells us very little about whether the evolutionary approach could be overridden by a cultural one.
Bo102010220

When I was getting ready to graduate from high school, I started applying for scholarships from different organizations and to universities. A large fraction of the applications had a section like "Write an essay on why you want to exercise leadership."

At the time I concluded that "leadership" was a new buzzword that everyone had to make some reference to in order to qualify for anything. I dutifully wrote some meaningless essays about leadership. Then when I went to school and heard more and more about leadership,the more I thought my ... (read more)

8David_Allen
I suspect that this is largely cultural; a response based on expectations, examples and training.

I agree in some sense, but disagree in another. I am fast at Excel. I don't need to use to mouse, look at the menus, or pause to find anything I'm looking for, because I've internalized the keyboard shortcuts and created quick macros for the things I need to do. People get a little flustered when they see me work in Excel because it looks like it's magically doing stuff, but it just comes from lots and lots of repetition.

Contrast this with a proper database, where I need to figure out some way to load the data in, make sure my query accounts for every plac... (read more)

I started last June and am at 196 solved currently.

0Morendil
That's worth a bunch of upvotes. I think I got less than 100 done before losing interest. It was a great way to learn a new programming language (Haskell).

I'd had a "Computer science for electrical engineers" course in school, which discussed data structures and algorithms from a high level (the usual sorting algorithm discussion, implementing a linked list, that kind of thing), but nothing too in-depth. I've had various experience in programming before PE.

In solving PE problems I've mostly used Wikipedia and Mathworld for research, and sometimes I'll Google for lecture notes on a relevant topic.

I've used the Python skills I've picked up from PE in my job already. I think I could function in a more... (read more)

Bo102010270

I don't drink (and never have).

For (1), when asked why I don't drink, I say "I don't know. I don't smoke either." People seem to recognize that some people just don't like to smoke, and that this type of thing carries over to other voluntary activities.

When I get a disdainful look or am being chided for being a stick in the mud, I steel myself by remembering Richard Feynmann's wife's exhortation: "What do you care what other people think?"

4RobinZ
That's a great line.
Bo102010220

It's been mentioned here on Less Wrong before, but I'll recommend it again - Project Euler. It's a set of 300+ math problems that are to be solved by designing an algorithm to run in under a minute.

Getting into Project Euler last summer is likely the best move I've ever made to improve my programming skills. I'm not a programmer, but coding skills come in handy in lots of places, so I started working through the PE problems as means of learning Python.

Since I started I've replaced almost all my casual reading with research into algorithms and math, and I'v... (read more)

1Emile
I heard about it a few times, but finally just registered ... went through 6 problems, they're pretty neat, thanks :) My maths is getting rusty, this is a nice boost.
1RobinZ
I just did the first three - and I think my solution to problem 2 was fairly elegant! Edit: My profile
4Barry_Cotter
Where did you start? Did you have a vague idea of algorithms before? If you began with introductory texts which ones would you recommend? Did you know any other programming languages before you started on Python? Could one get a job based solely on knowing Python to your level, do you think?
0[anonymous]
I'll have to try this!
0Zack_M_Davis
How many have you solved so far? I just got to level one the other day.

I've got another one that's about to be relevant to me. What should you do in order to be an effective manager?

I am an engineer and will soon be "in charge" of another engineer. I have had a couple bosses with various good and bad qualities, and obviously I want to emulate the good qualities and avoid the bad ones.

Is there a good procedure to begin being an effective supervisor of technical people? There is a vast of array of books and websites on management, but I think there's a very low rationality quotient.

5MartinB
Recommended reading: Peopleware, and The Mythical Man Month. My managing experiences so far have been in the unpaid/voluntary field. But in general it seems to be * generally be fast and clear in responding to communication (read: email) * ability to stay calm in pressurized situations Outside Interface: * make it possible for your people to do actually their work * get them the tools and environment needed * take care of systemic problems (Usually limited by your higher ups and corporate rules.) Inside interface * Bubble each individuals work by taking care of deadlines, putting suitable people into projects, checking in at times if the work is getting done. * you can possibly get extra points if you adapt your managing to each person. * search for 'how to manage your boss' and look what would work best on the other end Recommended skills * people skills * ridiculous high level of being organized * specifically: have efficient and few meetings The talks from Merlin Mann: Who moved my brain? and possible the others might be of use. If you can get a mentor with a similar background from yours.
0Malovich
Oh wow. I've seen this issue from about a half-dozen different perspectives. Starting with my dad who moved from Engineer to Manager at the company he worked at. He hated it until he learned a few basic skills about dealing with people's perspectives' and understanding of the world and how different perspectives on a situation will necessarily generate different approaches, assumptions and beliefs that will filter information received by them as individuals until some critical information both matches the current belief and induces a transition to other belief systems. Anyways. Managing people is mostly about making sure that they are functional and have their needs taken care of; a lot of factors can impact job performance in any field that have little to do with the job itself. When you become manager, take the time to find out where they're at in their life and what can stress them out or what they are looking forward to. See what tools or policies you have as a manager to help with that, or what strategies you have employed in the past in regards to workplace policies that can smooth things out for them. This step is a maintenance step and requires a routine checking in on. Next is inducing excellence in them. This is partly understanding what they are good at and giving them tasks suited to them, and working with them to overcome obstacles they come across and to arrange to have them learn new skills to enable them to perform better. This is a competence awareness process that allows you to break a project down into the largest chunks possible according to your subordinate's skills. Other than that, make sure your perspective is clear of bias as much as possible. You're dealing with human beings who are, for the most part, trying to get by to the best of their ability in a competitive and stressful environment. Each of them has arrived to where they are by making the best possible choices they could- there is every chance that if you had lived there life,
Bo102010200

I recently found myself thinking about this same topic. I have figured some of these out by trial and error, but feel that some formal training would have been useful (others I have not encountered):

  • How should you interact with a police officer - what are your obligations, your rights, and how should you conduct yourself?

  • If you want to move from one residence to another, what steps should you take? If you are credentialed in one state and want to move to another, what do you do?

  • If you get into a minor car accident, what should you do? What about a ma

... (read more)
1komponisto
For U.S. residents, the ACLU's "bust card" is a convenient reference.

How should you interact with a police officer - what are your obligations, your rights, and how should you conduct yourself?

I'm a law student. I'll take this one. This applies to the US specifically, though being polite and deferent are probably universal.

In short: TL;DR answer: Be polite, calm, and friendly. If you are guilty of a crime, admit nothing, do not give permission to search anything that would be incriminating, say that you don't want to talk to the officer (unless answering extremely general questions), and, if you are detained, ask to spea... (read more)

2[anonymous]
Voting: all the official info from the US government is here.

I find it somewhat troubling that my flip reply to your comment has netted me more karma than any of my other recent contributions.

Bo102010150

Downvoted because I don't think I want to see more comments like it.

-2oliverbeatson
I ended up posting it out of sincere curiosity regarding whether it would go up or down. But I suppose it did amount to spam; I accept my downvotes with no unhappiness.

I like the numeric approach. However, something seems off, and I think it's that you're conflating the cost of saving a human life with the value of a human life.

Your question is interesting, though. If Omega gives you the choice of N dollars or giving 10,000 chickens a perfect chicken life,at what N do you pick the money?

3Broggly
I guess part of the issue is quality of life. I'd pay more to get chickens who are/otherwise would lead painful and unpleasant lives onto Planet Chicken than I would to have Omega create them out of thin air. On the human side of it, there's more to life than avoiding malaria and elephantiasis. Ten million dollars is an obvious upper limit, in that I prefer a human living a life of hardship to a chicken living life at its best. I suppose I'd go for about $5 a head to "save" a chicken from never having existed, and maybe somewhere between $20 and $100 to save one from a horrific life. These are nothing more than nice, round numbers, which to some extent include emotional considerations like wanting to look nice rather than greedy. I'm majoring in genetics, and part of the prac work includes bioethics classes so after I've spent more time studying specific cases (and in later years possibly being involved in animal experimentation) I'll probably get a better grasp of the value of animal life and welfare. I think we can all agree that a human life is worth somewhere between 10 and several billion chickens though.

Like I said earlier, I eat meat only rarely. I don't hate chickens or anything, but I don't think the welfare of non-sentient beings weighs very heavily on the scales of justice.

If the choice is between factory-farm torturing a human and factory-farming N farm animals, I pick very large N again.

If Omega asks me how many meals of meat I'd replace with non-meat meals to save one human, I'd give up all of mine. I don't like hamburgers that much anyway.

I'm assuming you mean non-sapient, rather than non-sentient.

I suggest you actually try to work out your break even numbers. Here are mine:

1 human, born into factory farming conditions, killed after 16 years, is about the same as 100 times as many pigs raised in similar conditions until killed at 8 months, for N = 2,400. For chickens killed at 6 weeks, my multiplier is around 20,000, so N = 2,800,000.

Given how much I like meat, I'm willing to subject a perfect stranger to factory-farming conditions for M years in order to be able to eat pork/chicken (produc... (read more)

3Raemon
I generally avoid arguing with people who are already doing what I'd prefer they do. But I do find this point interesting. Try framing the argument this way: Omega lets you save one human life, but doing so requires you to create X humans who are extremely mentally retarded, to the point that they have no long term goals, can probably only experience pain or joy in the moment, and are incapable of the more complex pleasures and suffering that a regular human would be able to. But those X humans must spend their lives locked in a box that is rarely cleaned, force-fed food that is unhealthy for them, for about a year or two until they are killed. Then try the argument again, but replace the long description I gave with "human babies, who will never develop past baby-hood." Because I think it's legitimately similar. If there was a gene that caused a human to live up to about a year and then die, with no chance of growing up, but also be extremely tasty, would it be okay to clone a bunch of them to eat? For the record, my answer in terms of "lives saved" for this question is probably around 10,000 (basically started with the life expectancy of the human, multiplied by about a hundred, which is about how much more I think the average human is capable of appreciating life than the average pig. Note that this is an average human. The numbers do change if I knew what kind of life the human was likely to lead). I could be persuaded that the coefficient should be a bit more, but I really can't imagine it being higher than x10,000, for a total ratio of 1,000,000 : 1. If you assign a higher number for the average human, I think that's a decision made purely out of human-centric bias rather than the value of intelligence or human capacity for joy. And my answer in terms of "If you had to live your life being marginally less happy because you didn't get to eat tasty retarded-human-flesh, how many retarded-humans/babies would have to be saved in order to give up that amount o

What if you put numbers to it?

If Omega offered you the choice between one saving human's life and giving N chickens a long, perfect, chicken life on Planet Chicken, at what value of N would you pick the chickens?

Assuming none of the N animals are particularly special to any sentient being, for me it's well north of 10^9.

I would pick a smaller N for animals like dolphins, dogs (again, not talking about animals that are special to people), elephants, etc., due to their intelligence. But in general, for animals typically used for their meat, N is high enough that it doesn't affect my decision whether to eat meat.

1Broggly
Given that a human life can be saved for $1000 (this is a very conservative estimate, I understand the figure can get as low as $200 per life), this means that if Omega gave you the choice of one (presumably ideally altruistic) human getting a penny and saving 10,000 chickens who would otherwise live perfectly happy chicken lives, you'd take the penny. Now, this is a bit silly, but when you look at suffering rather than life it gets more serious. Humane treatment of animals costs money (to some extent though it's profitable). Should we not bother to waste money on experiments to determine which slaughtering procedures cause the least pain and distress? Should we allow wealthy gourmets to eat animals that were intentionally tortured before being slaughtered because they prefer the taste?
0datadataeverywhere
I think the numbers are large enough to make me suspicious of my own reasoning. Since I reason better about quality of life, let's talk about the break-even point where putting N chickens in factory-farming conditions are the moral equivalent of putting a single human in a factory-farming condition. A billion seems way too large. Maybe I'd say 100,000? A million? I hate chickens, but that seems like an awful lot of suffering. Like I said, I don't think my brain works on this level. More importantly, you're presenting a false dichotomy. We aren't talking about killing people, or putting them into factory farming conditions. We're talking about eating hamburgers instead of eating fried zucchini. How many hamburgers would you replace with non-meat foods to save a human life? 10^9? If it's anywhere near the N you assigned earlier, you should seriously consider not eating chickens. Disclaimer: While I don't eat pork or beef, I do eat chickens. Then again...this argument is making me rethink that decision.
3[anonymous]
I agree that the answer to such questions lead to astronomical values in number-of-animals for any sort of equivalent. Why I still do not eat meat is simply because it is not necessary, and I can get the same joy of eating by eating something else. It is completely avoidable, no advantage for me, disadvantage for the animals. (Well, there was an argument on LW once that a cow should be happy that we eat cows because this dramatically increases the healthy-cow-life-years, so the cow-utilitarian calculation is mega-positive. However, total-utilitarianism does not seem to match my moral intuitions; I do not know about others.) However, I do not know how strong exactly the joy of tasting meat is for other people, maybe due to their enjoyment the animals get irrelevant compared to it. I also do not know if the amount of people avoiding killing animals if high-quality synthesized meat would exist.
Bo102010150

I eat meat only occasionally, giving weight to your reasons (2) and (3), but not (1). I think it takes quite a few farm animal deaths to add up to a papercut to a human, morality-wise.

I do find it quite interesting to see how people react when you say you don't eat meat. I'm from the midwest, and often get reactions like:

  • "Wuss."

  • "I am going to make you eat meat."

  • "What about protein, huh?"

I don't quite understand why people are offended by my dietary choices that don't affect them at all, but I've come to think it's som... (read more)

3jsalvatier
Really? I have just the opposite intuition. (2) seems like a reason for not consuming too much meat rather than none. It seems like (3) is a lot of effort for very little improvement in the environment. (1) I do take seriously. We consume a lot of animals.

As an atheist and a capitalist, I find it quite satisfying that capitalism has largely displaced religion in one of Christianity's most important holidays. I have no problem celebrating that!

Miller170

I think you mean consumerism not capitalism. Putting some distance on those two seems wise to me.

I get that feeling with bad grammar as well, but only if it's really bad.

I get a feeling not unlike watching an extremely embarrassing situation play out on a TV show when I hear purported explanations of Creationism, crystal energy, homeopathy, Team Blue economic theory, Team Red social preferences...

I like this idea too, but I suspect it would be quickly hijacked - it's easier to bug your instructor until she lets you have a better grade than to study. Ask most "tough graders" how their student reviews compare to "easy graders."

4wedrifid
I always hated those assessments that weren't marked anonymously!

This is a fair point. I would note, however, that eviction typically requires repeated notification, and opportunities for you modify your behavior before encountering violence.

Contrast with how your local sheriff can bust down your door in the middle of the night, shoot your dogs, destroy your property, and arrest you merely for suspecting you of possessing marijuana. And then be praised for it even if you are innocent.

It does matter if one has guns (or SWAT teams) and the other relies on non-violent persuasion.

-1CronoDAS
::does some Googling:: If a landlord tries to have you evicted, and you refuse to leave when a court rules that you must do so, local law enforcement is allowed to physically remove you from the property. That doesn't sound non-violent to me.

Wasn't there a somewhat well-publicized "spate" of suicides at a large French telecom a while back? I remember the explanation being the same - the number observed was just about what you'd expect for an employer of that size.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_Telecom

3mattnewport
Even if the suicide rate was somewhat higher than average it still doesn't necessarily tell you much. You should really be looking at the probability of that number of suicides occurring in some distinct subset of the population - given all the subsets of a population that you can identify you will expect some to have higher than suicide rates than for the population as a whole. The relevant question is 'what is the probability that you would observe this number of suicides by chance in some randomly selected subset of this size?' Incidentally the rate appears to be below that of Cambridge University students:

If I were defending cryonics, I would say that a small chance of immortality beats sure death hands-down.

It sounds like Pascal's Wager (small chance at success, potentially infinite payoff), but it doesn't fail for the same reasons Pascal's Wager does (Pascal's gambit for one religion would work just as well for any other one.) - discussed here a while back.

-4timtyler
Re: "If I were defending cryonics, I would say that a small chance of immortality beats sure death hands-down." That's what advocates usually say. It assumes that the goal of organisms is not to die - which is not a biologically realistic assumption.
Bo102010190

Quit posting on this subject. Please. I didn't downvote you, but I will downvote any more posts on the topic by anyone.

I find this line of thinking also applies to past versions of myself - if I stumble upon an insight that seems obvious, I think, "why didn't I notice this before?" where "I" = "past versions of myself."

When you figure something out, there's got to be a first time.

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