All of chairbender's Comments + Replies

I agree that productive tasks tend to be less enjoyable, but (at least for me) I still experience SOME positive emotions when I'm being productive, though (and when I'm reflecting on being productive). I just meant that it's possible to be productive and not feel miserable. I started getting more productive when I was able to use mindfulness to detach myself from an impulsive desire to experience happiness. I don't think that's a particularly harmful idea to suggest. I just think it's bad to discourage people from trying to find happiness and contentment i... (read more)

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-1drethelin
Calling something bullshit is less of a slur than calling someone's ideas poisonous. Plenty of things are bullshit. If you can't handle people disagreeing with the truth of your statements or your ethical injunctions maybe you shouldn't go around telling someone that expressing their concerns is a poisonous idea. Edit- I also don't appreciate your pathetic emotional manipulation, both here and in the related sub-thread.

but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of "having fun". But I say this as an ethical egoist.

Just because you are an ethical egoist does not mean that ethical egoism is the system by which all moral claims ought to be judged. Have you read the metaethics sequence?

-1blacktrance
It's true that all moral claims shouldn't be judged by ethical egoism because I believe it, moral claims should be judged by egoism because it's correct. And I have read the metaethics sequence, and found it interesting, though at times lacking. What part of it are you referring to?

I find that doing fun things like web surfing makes unenjoyable work more bearable

If you learn mindfulness, you can learn to detach yourself from an impulsive desire to be entertained constantly, and find flow (and happiness, or at least contentment) in tasks you previously thought were unenjoyable.

3[anonymous]
Can you or anyone else sketch out some advice on how to achieve this wonderful sounding thing?

Thanks very much for this. My primary motivation to be productive seems to come from seeing the stories of inspirational, productive people, so this is a big motivator to continue to work hard.

Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. You're implying a dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions. You can find productive tasks enjoyable. Hanging out with people is an important part of staying healthy, for example, and is generally enjoyable.

there's more to life than work - there's actually enjoying life, having fun, etc.

Having fun is certainly something that you can do, but that doesn't mean that it is obviously morally optimal.

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5Viliam_Bur
Dichotomy is a strong word, but I expect that the correlation between productivity and positive emotions is generally negative. Of course the advice here is: go meta, and explore the strategies to make the correlation positive.
0drethelin
Downvoted for proposing a poisonous idea. There IS an obvious and common dichotomy between being productive and experiencing positive emotions and pretending that it isn't there is bullshit that will only cause people to burn out and be even less productive AND less happy. Yours is the kind of attitude that leads people to say "I can never be as good as this amazing guy so I won't even try". Satisficing morality and happiness separately will get us far more of both.
2blacktrance
You certainly can find productive tasks enjoyable, but it's common to find productive tasks unenjoyable. People don't hang out with each other because it's productive (except when networking), they hang out because it's fun. The fact that it's good for your health is a bonus, but isn't and shouldn't be the primary motivation. Not obviously morally optimal, but it is actually morally optimal, for a broad enough sense of "having fun". But I say this as an ethical egoist.

You should be cautious of that sort of self-evaluation. There's a sleep study that showed that people are very bad at evaluating how they are affected by not getting enough sleep.:

after just a few days, the four- and six-hour group reported that, yes, they were slightly sleepy. But they insisted they had adjusted to their new state. Even 14 days into the study, they said sleepiness was not affecting them. In fact, their performance had tanked. In other words, the sleep-deprived among us are lousy judges of our own sleep needs. We are not nearly as sharp

... (read more)
1Lumifer
Average people, maybe, but my sleep hours tend to vary and by now I have a pretty good idea how much sleep will leave me a zombie, how much will make me OK but not really in the top form, and how much is enough so that any more is just lazying in bed :-) It's easy to self-experiment with sleep. By the way, keep in mind that there is seasonal variation and weather effects.

I think you may have misread what I wrote. I pointed out in my original comment that, from what I've read, 7.5 hours seems to be not enough sleep. So it would follow that getting more sleep would increase performance. I know that excessive sleep also causes problems, but that's clearly not relevant here.

Lumifer130

from what I've read, 7.5 hours seems to be not enough sleep

Sleep requirements are individual and vary widely. The 7.5 hours is just the mean of a fairly wide distribution.

As a data point, I live in a house with someone who requires about two hours of more sleep per night than I do.

Everything I've read suggests that that is not a sufficient amount of sleep to achieve peak performance. I would think that, if you're interested in learning as effectively as possible (especially such difficult material), it would be more effective to get more sleep. Is there some reason you decided that this was enough sleep?

EDIT: Looks like I may be wrong about this not being enough sleep, after doing some more searching.

So8res100

I play it by feel. I tend to wake up feeling refreshed after 7.5h. If I grow tired during the day, I take a nap. In my experience, napping during the day leads to less need for sleep on the following night. I avoid alarms and I trust my body to know what it's doing. Perhaps I will do more experimentation in the future.

7Lumifer
If you are sleep-deprived getting more sleep is very effective at raising your performance. If you already get enough sleep, sleeping more won't help and might even decrease it.

and imaginary friends can be useful for e.g. people who are lonely.

The instrumentally rational thing to do, when faced with loneliness, is to figure out how to be with real people. No evidence was presented in the original post that suggests that tulpas mitigate the very real risk factors associated with social isolation. Loneliness is actually a very serious problem, considering most of the research seems to indicate that the best way to be happy is to have meaningful social interactions. Proposing this as a viable alternative would require a very high amount of evidence. A post presenting that evidence would be something that belongs here.

4ChristianKl
I don't see where you got the idea that it's supposed to be an alternative. If I'm less clingy because I have a Tupla and thus no fear of being alone I have an easier time interacting with other people. There are much bigger claims on this side with much less evidence. Just look into discussions of uploading and AGI. Nobody hear advocates that it should be standard procedure to train every lonely person who seeks help to have a tulpa.
2Kaj_Sotala
Also, "having a tulpa" and "figuring out how to be with real people" are not mutually exclusive. Lonely people may often have extra difficulties establishing meaningful relationships (romantic or otherwise), because the loneliness makes them desperate, clingy, etc. which are all behaviors that other people find off-putting. People who already have some meaningful relationships are likely to have a much easier time in establishing more.
4Kaj_Sotala
I know a couple of people who feel like their tulpas reduce their feelings of loneliness. Not sure of how you could get any stronger evidence than that at this stage, there not being any studies focusing specifically on tulpas. That said, I don't see any a priori reason for why you couldn't get meaningful social interactions from tulpas, so not sure for why you'd require an exceptionally high standard of evidence in the first place.

What experimental test could you perform to determine that you have successfully learned "parallel tulpa processing"?

2Ishaan
Divided attention task Split brain patients can do stuff like this better than neurotypicals under certain conditions. I have not heard of anyone successfully doing this with tulpas or any other psychodynamic technique.

The general impression I got from reading a lot of the stuff that gets posted in the various tulpa communities leads me to believe it is, at its core, yet another group of people who gain status within that group by trying to impress each other with how different or special their situation is. Read almost any post where somebody is trying to describe their tulpa, and you'll see very obvious attempts to show how unique their tulpa is or how it falls into some unprecedented category or how they created it in some special way.

None of the sources posted offer ... (read more)

5yli
Used to be, when I read stories about "astral projection" I thought people were just imagining stuff really hard and then making up exaggerated stories to impress each other. Then I found out it's basically the same thing as wake initated lucid dreaming, which is a very specific kind of weird and powerful experience that's definitely not just "imagining things really hard". I still think people make up stories about astral projection to impress each other, but the basic experience is nevertheless something real and unique. The same thing is probably happening with tulpas.
1ChristianKl
Given that tulpa are probably strongly influenced by the hosts beliefs I wouldn't expect all tulpas to be exactly the same. I would expect most tulpa's to be unique in some sense. I also would expect that given the effort that involved in creating a tulpa that people do vary the protocol. "Good evidence" depends on your priors. For me the evidence that exists is good enough to find the phenomena interesting and worthy of further attention.

This is not a credible source. Yoga is less efficient in terms of the benefits you get out of it per time spent when compared to other activities (like high-intensity activities).

0NancyLebovitz
The Tibetans are fairly high intensity, at least by my non-athletic standards. Doing 21 reps of sitting to table position is some degree of work.

What are your credentials w.r.t. nutrition?

-21Lumifer

After reading the latest willpower research from Kurzban, I tried to figure out a way to make use of the model it proposes to decrease impulsivity and increase the time I spend on productive tasks.

I've developed a habit that makes use of mindfulness skills (that I get from nightly mindfulness meditation) where I notice when I am feeling an aversive state in response to deciding what to do or evaluating what I'm doing and use that feeling as a reminder to be mindful of just the task I am working on (which has the effect of diminishing the aversive feeling... (read more)

Still, not quite. Basically, what Kurzban is saying is that that bad feeling that people attribute to "mental fatigue" is really just a residual feeling left over from the aversive-state votes of the monitoring mechanisms. It's not actually a way for your brain to try to communicate to you, at a conscious level, that you should do something different. You feeling that bad feeling is just a side-effect of that decision making process taking place (or, a decision that has already taken place). And, if I understand correctly, you'll feel that bad fe... (read more)

a) The best action you should be doing now is to sleep or at least to take a nap, so your brain would process the information it has now and prepare itself for new information

I don't think this is how Kurzban's model would explain it. In Kurzban's model, the "feeling of exhaustion" stems from one or more monitoring mechanisms causing aversive states (in response to trying to decide what to do). The monitoring mechanisms aren't causing the feeling of exhaustion so that you'll feel sleepy - they are just voting by causing aversive states, and K... (read more)

1Kaj_Sotala
Great comment!
1Viliam_Bur
Thank you, this distinction between "feeling sleepy as a mechanism to get more sleep" and "feeling sleepy as a crude mechanism to just stop doing whatever you are doing now" seems very useful! So I should generally treat sleepiness as a signal which means "stop doing what you are doing", without necessarily meaning "...and get some sleep". Although a short rest or nap would probably not be harmful, because it does stop doing what I was doing, and provides me a time to reflect on my next actions. Short meditation would help too.

Developing mindfulness skills (via mindfulness meditation, for example) probably wouldn't be a waste of time, if you want to improve your focus and decrease impulsive task-switching (and make doing productive things less unpleasant). I suspect that, in Kurzban's model, that feeling of "boredom" stems from a monitoring mechanism giving a negative evaluation of whatever it is you're doing.

When you practice mindfulness, you're basically practicing focusing on just one thing (breathing) and learning to shrug off and silence whatever comes to consciou... (read more)