All of Cranefly's Comments + Replies

Found this by random clicking around, I expect no one's still reading this, but maybe we'll catch each other via Inbox:

How about "optimize the worst case" from in game theory? It settles both the dust speck vs. torture and the the Utility Monster Felix problems neatly.

And my problem, here, is that "death is bad" cannot be an unqualified truth. "Human death is bad" can be aspirationally true, and I am willing to believe that the unprecedented depth of Harry's aspiration might be the key that unlocks the power of his Patronus -- but it does look like EY means it literally, and that means that Harry should at some point need to distinguish between his ideology and that of, as Edward Abbey puts it, "the ideology of the cancer cell."

Well, and here's where it gets interesting: are there any other places where we see Harry use logic that he knows (or should know) to be unsound in an instrumental fashion? That is, where he makes a tactical choice to argue nonsense, believing it to have a better chance of convincing someone who disagrees with him?

Harry should consider the possibility that he "might actually welcome [death] even just one day after a day when [he] didn't welcome it" -- if he can't anticipate the possibility of his utility function changing based on an infinity of new evidence, he should stop pretending to be solely rationalist. Which, interestingly, Chapter 82 seems to be hinting at.

Ah! Thanks for that background. Can you explain, though, why you think that statement is meant to be Harry taking the piss? (Within the text, that is -- Eliezer does rightly frame it as a joke in those links). Harry's surrounding statements are sincerely put, and the next paragraph suggests to me that Harry believes that the induction argument should have refuted Dumbledore:

The two cultures stared at each other across a vast gap of incommensurability.

In any case, I do hope that, at some point, Harry has to face down the taboo tradeoffs (to be topical t... (read more)

4jmmcd
I don't think Harry is actually taking the piss, and nor does he see it as a literal proof. It helps to remember who he's talking to. He's trying to get Dumbledore to consider not just death, sometime in the far abstract future, but a thing that you might actually welcome even just one day after a day when you didn't welcome it. Not a proof but a rhetorical device.

I have a confusion!

Way back in Chapter 39, Harry says:

"I want to live one more day. Tomorrow I will still want to live one more day. Therefore I want to live forever, proof by induction on the positive integers."

This immediately caught my attention, given that Harry talks in earlier chapters about his worldview relying on Bayesian inference. Yet, for induction over an infinite sequence of unknown, informative experiences to hold, he has to have assigned an integral prior. Hijinks!

My first thought was that this was a clue dropped by the author... (read more)

3Alsadius
"Death is bad" is a true conclusion that Harry has arrived at through legitimate means. "I will always want to live forever" is utter nonsense, but it's not necessary for the True Patronus.
6Alsadius
Honestly, that comes across as a flaw in Eliezer's worldview more so than Harry's. I've seen him make the same argument in his own name, and it's pretty transparently false(cf. anyone committing suicide, ever). Being forced to die is evil and ought to be opposed, but I have a feeling that literal immortality would appeal to many fewer people than might be expected.

Eliezer has used that line in nonfiction too; I'm very confident that Harry's pro-immortality stance is endorsed by the author, but that the "induction proof" is meant rhetorically and should not be construed to imply infinite certainty.

-6linkhyrule5