All of denisbider's Comments + Replies

Sorry, I don't check this place often.

To some extent, I think what you described does happen for snippets of code that are largely the same, and which one might write all the time. For example, I can write a "Hello world" program while maintaining conversation. However, as soon as you ask me to write something new, then I do have to start thinking about how to put pieces together, and can't continue conversation.

But this also happens with driving. Speaking for myself at least, I can only maintain conversation while driving in a way that does not ... (read more)

Programming is one of them. Even after doing it for decades, people are still as consciously engaged in it as they did in the beginning.

My experience disagrees with this. After about 20 years of experience with C/C++, I have internalized many of the aspects of programming in this language, which allows me to write complex software factors of magnitude faster than 20 years ago, and factors of magnitude more safely.

I notice how much I have internalized when I switch to a different language that isn't "my own", and find myself immediately bogged... (read more)

1arundelo
Maybe "still as consciously engaged in it as [...] in the beginning" was too strong, but compare programming to driving. If you're like most drivers you can do basically anything while driving (in normal traffic and weather conditions), as long as it doesn't require you to take your limbs from the car's controls or your eyes from the road. The programming equivalent of this would be that you can write a program (let's say a binary tree implementation in C for the sake of argument) while having a conversation, and * this would not make you take noticeably longer to write the program * nor would it mess up your conversational ability. A test of messing up your conversational ability would be whether the friend you're talking to could tell over the phone that you're doing something else at the same time. (I'm guessing you can't do this but I'd be interested to hear otherwise.)

It doesn't only work for me. It's how most people I know, who are into fitness, manage their weight. The "Calories In" part is not eating too much. The "Calories Out" part is maintaining your metabolism by eating small meals regularly, exercising, and eating lots of protein to gain and preserve muscle mass.

It works. It works for a lot of people.

In fact, aside from gastric bypass surgery, it's the only reliable way to lose weight that I know. And gastric bypass surgery is a form of CI:CO!

And then we have a bunch of people on Less Wrong, ... (read more)

1Kindly
There is not ever any reason to bring the conversation down to this level. In the future, consider writing only the first half of a comment in which the second half is going to be needlessly offensive and contribute nothing. Or, you know, that "tapping out" thing paper-machine did? Which you were mocking him about? That is an acceptable thing to do when you don't think the argument is productive any longer. Reading between the lines, this is what you think as well. Except that for some reason you feel the need to signal it by insulting everyone.
0bcoburn
Yes, that is exactly what they are saying. It happens to be the case that this thing works for you. That is only very weak evidence that it works for anyone else at all. All humans are not the same. We recommend getting over being insulted and frustrated when things that work for you specifically turn out to be flukes, it's not a surprising thing and sufficiently internalizing how many actual studies turn out to be flukes would make it the obvious result. Reality shouldn't be strange or surprising or insulting!

Sorry for the late reply, I haven't checked this in a while.

Please don't fight the hypothetical.

Most components of our thought processes are subconscious. The hypothetical question you posed presses a LOT of subconscious buttons. It is largely impossible for most people, even intelligent ones, to take a hypothetical question at face value without being influenced by the subconscious effects of the way it's phrased.

You can't fix a bad hypothetical question by asking people to not fight the hypothetical.

For example, who wants to spend an eternity isolate... (read more)

1Ghatanathoah
When I heard that hypothetical I took the whole "launching you into space" thing as another way of saying "Assume for the sake of the argument that no outside force or person will ever break into the pleasure machine and kill you." I took the specific methodology (launching into space) to just be a way to add a little color to the thought experiment and make it a little more grounded in reality. To me if a different method of preventing interference with the machine had been specified, such as burying the machine underground, or establishing a trust fund that hired security guards to protect it for the rest of your life, my answer wouldn't be any different. I suppose you are right that someone other than me might give the "space launch" details much more salience. As you yourself pointed out in your original post, modifying the experiment's parameters might change the results. Although what I read in this thread makes me think that people might not gradually choose to use the machine all the time after all. Much regret probably comes from things like heroin preventing them from finding steady work, or risks of jailtime. But I think a lot of people also regret not accomplishing goals that heroin distracts them from. Many drug users, for instance, regret neglecting their friends and family. I agree. I would think it terrific if people in the future are able to modify themselves to feel more intense and positive emotions and sensations, as long as doing so did not rob them of their will and desire to do things and pursue non-pleasure-related values. I don't see doing that as any different from taking an antidepressant, which is something I myself have done. There's no reason to think our default moods setting are optimal. I just think it would be bad if increasing our pleasure makes it harder to achieve our other values. I think you also imply here, if I am reading you correctly, that a form of wireheading that did not exclude non-pleasure experiences would be vast

I haven't checked this thread for a while, so sorry for the late reply.

You make it out as though diet by CI:CO is too difficult to be practical. Maybe it is, for people who can't track stuff to save their lives.

For me, it's been easy. When I'm dieting, I have a spreadsheet where I record the calorie and protein content of everything I eat.

Yes, calculating calorie content for homemade meals is a fair amount of work, and takes dedication. It takes me up to 30 minutes of lookups and calculations to calculate calorie and protein content in a meal, and that's a... (read more)

-4[anonymous]
My argument had nothing to do with conscientiousness. There is currently no convenient way to accurately track your caloric intake and caloric expenditure. Attempts to do so have all the usual sources of error that this thread already covered. In particular, adding up the numbers on the labels of the things you eat is not a sufficiently accurate method of determining caloric intake, see for example the FDA's Food Labeling Guide, questions N30-37. That's before we begin to talk about preparation loss ratios, nutrient bioavailability and the vagaries of the human metabolic system. So when somebody recommends CI:CO, they're recommending either 1) vapid numerology or 2) a time-sink that is also largely numerology. It's unreliable, and therefore not something I would ever suggest to somebody else. All your self-congratulatory narcissism is also largely off-topic. In particular, is such a bizarre source of evidence that I can't imagine why you bothered stating it. Is it really so controversial that pseudoscientific magic is bad advice? I was right in the grandparent. I'm tapping out.

Presumably the company in question could easily manufacture a whole bunch for itself and get a significant portion of the bitcoin market

They can get 100% of the mining and transaction fees market by snapping their fingers. Once they've made their initial investment into manufacturing the chip, the marginal cost of making more of them is minimal. Far below the $30k they're selling the 1 TH solution for.

They can grab 50%+ of the mining market for themselves pretty easily. Then, they can increase their capacity to keep up with the growth of the network for... (read more)

2[anonymous]
If someone sounds crazy to you, maybe you have misinterpreted them. The original post said that nutrition was "fairly easy", and that one should follow the rule of "calories in, calories out" and that one should eat "micronutrient dense food." CI:CO is broken because it's difficult to measure CI with any accuracy and intractably hard to measure CO. It ignores all sorts of subtleties like getting enough protein in your diet and the difference between bulking and cutting. For example, good luck seeing gains if you're eating 20% fat, 70% carb, and 10% protein on a 10-15% caloric deficit. All the micronutrients in the world won't save that diet. But you're still following CI:CO! Sigh. If this point is really so hard for people to get, maybe it's just not worth making. It's probably easier to let LW devolve into a bunch of badly-sourced self help advice than to continue tilting at windmills.

Then they will blast you and the pleasure machine into deep space at near light-speed so that you could never be interfered with. Would you let them do this for you?

Most people say they wouldn't choose the pleasure machine.

Well, no wonder. The way the hypothetical scenario is presented evokes a giant array of ways it could go wrong.

What if the pleasure machine doesn't work? What if it fails after a month? What if it works for 100 years, followed by 1,000 years of loneliness and suffering?

Staying on Earth sounds a lot safer.

Suppose the person you are ask... (read more)

2Ghatanathoah
Please don't fight the hypothetical. I think it likely that the people Luke spoke with were likely intelligent people who knew that hypotheticals are supposed to test your values and priorities and responded in the spirit of the question. Many people become addicted to drugs, and end up using them nearly 100% of the time. That doesn't mean that's what they really want, it just means they don't have enough willpower to resist. How humans would behave if encountered with a pleasure machine is not a reliable guide to how humans would want to behave if they were encountered with it, in the same way that the way humans would behave if encountered with heroin is not a reliable guide to how humans would want to behave when encountered with heroin. There are lots of regretful heroin users. Wouldn't it be even better to constantly be feeling this bliss, but also still mentally able to pursue non-pleasure related goals? I might not mind engineering the human race to feel pleasure more easily, as long as we were still able to pursue other worthwhile goals.

I don't think the lack of scientists is the issue. The issue is others providing all the engineering and support that scientists need - to survive in the first place, and then to get science done.

If you want to continue your example of sacrificing a child, a more effective proposal would be to have extra children and bond them into near-slavery, taxing them at some high amount so as to support those who do science.

But that would be a real sacrifice, and most would not find the idea pleasing.

The Economist reported on the Israeli study too:

http://www.economist.com/node/18557594

The article makes an argument which I find persuasive: that it's not about food as much as it's about difficult decisions tiring the brain. When the brain is tired, it resorts to the easy and safe option.

Check out the Economist article for more.

0waveman
... and these decisions are difficult. You have very little, poor quality information, you are constantly lied to, you get very little feedback on how your decisions went, and any feedback you do get is delayed and noisy.

They do in some of the handful of transracial adoption studies, and don't in others. Rushton and Jensen et al hype the Minnesota study, because it's the one that supports their case, and note data quality problems with the other studies. Nisbett and Flynn do the reverse. But very little work is done in this area (yes, because of PC issues with funding bodies), so the data is still too thin to be very confident either way.

Agreed. More data would be nice.

I am open to a different explanation, it's just that the genetic one seems most compatible with what I... (read more)

Most of your criticisms here appear to be resulting from "morally repugnant", which means that I hold a view wildly different from that which you find acceptable, but you can't quite figure out why. If you test me, you may find that my views are neither ill-defined, nor poorly thought out, nor dumb; nor even morally repugnant.

Your criticism about politeness is valid however. I do not try to be polite unless the other person is already polite, which creates a sort of vicious circle half the time. I'd like to improve that.

Good points. But then why don't African Americans perform much better when adopted and raised by non-African parents? If it's about parent pressure, then an African American kid adopted by Asian parents should perform at about Asian level. Why do they not?

1[anonymous]
They do in some of the handful of transracial adoption studies, and don't in others. Rushton and Jensen et al hype the Minnesota study, because it's the one that supports their case, and note data quality problems with the other studies. Nisbett and Flynn do the reverse. But very little work is done in this area (yes, because of PC issues with funding bodies), so the data is still too thin to be very confident either way.
6MrHen
Firstly, I am not obligated to tell you why I downvote. Secondly, it is hard to justify responding to a comment like this. The amount of clarifying questions I need to ask to fully understand how your examples relate to the point requires more effort than I want to expend. As best as I can tell, this is the crux of your point: If we narrow the field from Africa to someone unjustly imprisoned, should we help them? The point of this question is to clarify whether there is a difference between someone who is powerless and someone who has the potential for power. It makes no implicit claim on whether we should help Africa. This is similar to Rain's comment about spending a few dollars on chimp cognition.
8Rain
Your analogy is flawed. We cannot spend a few dollars to ensure that a chimpanzee gains cognitive ability. We can spend a few dollars to ensure that someone with nutritional deficiencies or easily curable diseases has a vaccine or proper vitamins to substantially increase their IQ and ability to function. In which case, the "incapacitation" you refer to is actually a vicious cycle, a structural problem, that's aid-solvable. Also, there's an enormous leap from "they're not incapacitated... " to "they can do whatever they want!"

I find Flynn and Nisbett's position unconvincing. Asians are obviously different and were heavily discriminated against, yet have integrated in America regardless, and now have comparable or better outcomes. There must be a more substantial reason why Africans haven't done the same, and the most plausible reason so far for me is genetics.

Pretty much the one major argument against genetics is that people just don't want this to be the case, because it's one of the least hopeful explanations. But this is bias. Once you eliminate it, it becomes strikingly evident what the most likely explanation is.

0[anonymous]
Flynn and Nisbett think that Asians have better cultures in this respect (cultures are passed down from parent to child, and note that the transracial adoption studies, the most powerful evidence have had mixed results) and Africans worse. Note that Asian-American kids lag in IQ before they enter school (when their parents talk less to them than white Americans) but then surge ahead after entering school, as their parents put intense pressure on them to learn and succeed. Also Asian-Americans are much more successful educationally and professionally than their IQs would predict.

African-American IQ in the 80s, with only 20% European admixture, shows that African IQs are depressed by environment.

I wouldn't say so. I think it shows that genes for higher IQ are inherited dominantly.

This has also been proposed as an explanation for the Flynn effect - whole countries getting "smarter" over time - being due to the gene pool mixing more in cities, and thus with dominant pro-IQ genes gaining ground.

The same mechanism has been proposed for the increasing height.

Animals have short lives so it wouldn't work well, and I care le

... (read more)
Kevin100

Btw, I'm just going to interject and say that this conversation has been done at Hacker News many times and it never really goes anywhere. I'm going to wait five years until more genome wide association studies are done before I try to enter this argument again. It seems obvious to me that there are some genetic differences in intelligence, but it's a touchy enough subject that I don't feel it's worth entering an argument based on individual interpretations of incomplete evidence.

If the recipients are highly functional and creative thereafter, they should make money. If they make money, even if you don't want it, they can pay you back.

I do approve of charity which gives to things that do go on to create more than was invested. An example would be investing into basic research that isn't going to pay off until decades later. Investing in that is, I think, one of the most commendable charitable acts.

Most charity, however, is not that. It is more so charitable indulgence; it is spending money on something that is emotionally appealing... (read more)

9CarlShulman
Well, if you want to say that curing a TB patient to have a mostly happy life with low economic productivity in tradables is a despicable "travesty" and an "indulgent" waste of resources (and not because the return on investment could be used to do more good later), you can use words that way. But in future it would be nice to make it plain when your bold conclusions about "cost-benefit analysis" depend so profoundly on normative choices like not caring about the lives or welfare of the powerless, rather than any interesting empirical considerations or arguments relevant to folk who do care.

I'm sure this is often the case, but please don't overgeneralize.

True; point taken. I find it likely that many (perhaps most here) are not like that.

Your grandparent post is at +2 as I write this.

True. But overall, I'm down about 50 karma today, and still counting. :)

Even the maximalist (and implausible in light of other data) Rushton-Lynn hypothesis

I've been looking for about a decade now, but have not encountered evidence that would discredit Lynn. I have however seen a lot of evidence which corroborates his findings.

If you have evidence that discredits his work, I would appreciate it.

is perfectly consistent with aid (external provision of disease treatment, etc) having massive benefits in reducing disease and increasing wellbeing until biotech or more radical things can bypass any genetic disadvantage.

Why sto... (read more)

1[anonymous]
African-American IQ in the 80s, with only 20% European admixture, shows that African IQs are depressed by environment. The Dickens-Flynn model explains how to reconcile the Flynn effect and heritability increasing with age: gene-environment interactions, suggesting that any genetic difference would be amplified by feedback environmental effects. Even Jensen gives a chunk of the gaps to environment. Animals have short lives so it wouldn't work well, and I care less about them than people with long term plans hopes and fears.

It is impossible to draw a clear line between races, but it is also impossible to draw a clear line between colors of the visual spectrum, and yet "red" and "blue" exist. For a non-IQ related example, people of Ashkenazim heritage are known to be at risk for certain genetic issues, while people of African heritage are known to be exposed to heart-related risks.

The concept of race (or any other word that symbolizes this concept) is statistically significant and useful - more so in countries that are much more homogeneous than the USA.

I don't believe that I'm shifting the goal posts; I stand behind both my original comment and the one above. They are different aspects of a greater concept.

Are you now saying that charity shouldn't be directed to countries inhabited by races which by virtue of low IQ will be unable to make good use of it?

That's part of what I'm saying. It should also not be directed towards the homeless and other failures.

I am in favor of a social net for those who are legitimately out of luck and soon regain gainful employment.

It still seem clear that health, nutri

... (read more)
Morendil130

Some of that "data" is hard to take seriously when you come across quotes such as the following:

Upon reading the original reference, we found that the “data point” that Lynn and Vanhanen used for the lowest IQ estimate, Equatorial Guinea, was actually the mean IQ of a group of Spanish children in a home for the developmentally disabled in Spain.

There's a similar issue with the next lowest IQ on the list, and when you learn that the greater portion of the "country IQ" figures were obtained by averaging IQ data from nearby countries, ... (read more)

If it makes one happy to go around and cure people of TB, then one should by all means do so. However, I do not perceive this as significantly different, or more valuable, than running a huge animal shelter, if the recipient of aid doesn't pay you back. As with an animal shelter, you are expending external resources to maintain something for the sake of it. Doing so does not contribute towards creating resources. It is a form of indulgence, not investment.

4CarlShulman
So valuable_denisbider charity is charity that is a profitable investment for denisbider? Or profitable for the giver? Even if the recipients were highly functional and creative thereafter?

Points taken, thank you.

Seems like a funny link, I've watched a bit of it and will continue to watch it.

But comparing the per capita GDP of $7,000 in Mauritius, vs $39,000 in Singapore...? Granted, $7,000 in Mauritius is more than $270 in Zimbabwe, but still.

The difference remains similar in PPP terms.

Also, about 2/3 of the Mauritius population appear to be Asian.

2Cyan
Hans Rosling has a ton of good presentations.

But the definition of "humanity" isn't even coherent, and is actually incompatible with shades of gray that actually exist.

Until these fundamentals are thought out, there can be lots of hot air, but progress toward a goal cannot be made, as long as the goal is incoherent.

It seems to me that the type of humanism you're talking about is based on an assumption that "other people are like me, and should therefore be just as valuable to me as I am".

But other people, especially of different cultures and genetic heritage, have strikingly diffe... (read more)

I didn't read Guns, Germs and Steel, but I read the synopsis on Wikipedia. My impression is that Diamond discusses the reasons why civilization developed in Europe (rather than elsewhere) in the past. The synopsis on Wikipedia does not, however, discuss anything relevant to why Africa has been unable to pick up civilization after it has already been developed. Are you aware of a synopsis of Diamond's argument that addresses specifically that?

I gave the example of Singapore specifically because it is a country that grew from virtually nothing to prosperity ... (read more)

4CharlieSheen
I disagree, my current best estimate is the low 80s. The main reasons for this is various factors like parasites lowering IQ and lingering iodine and micro nutrient deficiencies have been empirically demonstrated to have measurable impacts on cognition and these factors are a bigger problem in Africa than elsewhere. Another reason is the analysis of other authors who tried to disprove his claims by using other tricks to try to infer g and the equivalent IQ (but could only rig the IQs up to the high 80s).
6Morendil
You are definitely shifting the goal posts. Are you now saying that charity shouldn't be directed to countries inhabited by races which by virtue of low IQ will be unable to make good use of it? Comparing the above post to your original comment, one has to wonder why you didn't start there. It still seem clear that health, nutrition and education can have major effects on IQ regardless of the extent to which IQ differences might be due to genetic factors associated with ethnicity. (Imagine raising your kids in exactly the same conditions as slum dwellers in Haiti or Africa.)
3[anonymous]
Even the maximalist (and implausible in light of other data) Rushton-Lynn hypothesis is perfectly consistent with aid (external provision of disease treatment, etc) having massive benefits in reducing disease and increasing wellbeing until biotech or more radical things can bypass any genetic disadvantage. And there's no need to be smug.
0Rain
I thought racial disparity in IQ was proven to be minimal or nonexistent?
-5thomblake

Since we're doing probabilistic thinking, I would assign a great probability to the current system being imperfect, simply because (1) it is the system with which the site was designed prior to developing experience, and (2) the system is observed to have faults.

These faults seem to be fixable by making voting costlier, prompting readers to invest more thought when they decide to vote. I don't even expect that this would necessarily improve my karma, but I think it would increase thoughtfulness, decrease reactivity, and improve quality overall.

There shoul... (read more)

0thomblake
Patently false. I disagree on both points.

Perhaps I would know better to avoid that if I was more exposed to US culture, but I am originally from Europe and I tend to abhor political wars for their vacuousness, so perhaps I'm using words in ways that reminisce of politics inadvertently.

9Rain
To remove the word "politics" from my description: You seem very sure of yourself, to the point where it seems you are not taking uncertainty into account where you should be. The views you express seem to be statements about the world, as if they were facts, when discussing things like utilitarian value of certain actions, when there are competing views on the topic, and you do a disservice to the discussion by failing to mention or explain why your opinions are better than the competing theories, or even acknowledging that they are opinions. You don't provide the evidence; you provide a statement of "fact" in isolation, sometimes going so far as to claim special knowledge and ask the audience to do things you know very well are not going to make for an easy or quick discussion (like, "Go spend a few years in Africa.") I found that my alarms deactivated for your response to my comment that we think probabilistically, because the claims were testable and better labeled.

Thanks Matt. I generally try to take this role because I'm aware that the character traits that allow me to do this are somewhat rare, and that the role is valuable in balance.

I'm also aware of the need to improve my skills of getting the message across, but this takes time to develop.

That is generally true. In extreme cases, however, things can get near black and white. The case I was responding to does seem such an extreme case to me.

Aid in health care and education would in fact be the best way if the problem was something that can be solved with health care and education.

8CarlShulman
If I cure one person of TB, who would otherwise die, and the patient goes on to have several decades of happy life, I have solved a problem. That's so even if the patient isn't turned into a rich-country computer programmer whose kids never get sick. This is like attacking the idea of working at a job to buy food for yourself: since you'll just get hungry again later it's not a solution to the problem of your hunger.

Good points. But when are they going to start feeding themselves and making their own medicines?

7CarlShulman
Africans do mostly feed themselves. Most countries (and regions of the U.S., for that matter) don't make their own medicines, they buy them. When will poor countries or people in poor countries buy all those drugs themselves in adequate quantity (although note that rich country governments paid for mass vaccination and treatment of infectious diseases, as well as eradication of disease vectors, since reducing infectious disease has big externalities and is a public good)? China and India have undergone significant development, but certainly Africa has some additional problems facing it. It looks unlikely that Africa will surge forward (although there has been some growth in the last decade) in a sustained way in the near future, but there remain various possibilities for change, and in the long-term technology should radically change the game.

Haiti and Africa are not the way they are because anyone pillaged them. You need to read types of books you do not want to read, or try to live among them for a while, to get a glimpse of the nature of their dysfunction.

Or ask yourself this question. Many Asian countries are poor, but among them, some are marvelously prosperous. How come, though, there is no Singapore of African descent?

0Cyan
Mauritius?
3Morendil
Book pointers welcome. I'm not claiming great knowledge of either region, but I did read Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel, for instance, which seems to broadly answer your question about an African Singapore. If you have an alternate theory, I'm interested in seeing specifics. We seem to have strayed a fair bit from your general assertion about charity being always negative outside of a narrow context.

(1) I don't see my comments as being political. If you perceive them as injecting politics, then I suspect it's because you are used to hearing similar things in a more political environment. My comments are about reason, empathy, charity, value systems, and how they fit together.

(2) I am unable to substantiate my positions if people don't respond. When people do respond, then I have some understanding of the differences between my viewpoint and theirs, and can substantiate. But I don't believe it's reasonable to expect all possible counter-arguments to be... (read more)

3Rain
1) Some of your earlier comments, especially those most negatively rated, set off all of my "political talking points" alarm bells. I note that many of your later comments aren't so rated, and that you seem to be improving in your message-conveyance. 2) Your replies to replies seem to be going fairly well so far. 3) I agree that it is only potential. Thomblake posted a good link on that very topic, and it is also why I said the case had not been made, and put the phrase in quotes. However, calling it specious and saying I would agree with any system is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. Just because it's a potential bias doesn't mean that it is necessarily in effect, nor that its effects are so strong that it shows things are obviously broken. We do a lot of probabilistic thinking around here...

Also, have you actually been to Africa? I recommend visiting for a prolonged period several times. You might see it in a different perspective then.

Looks like you're just going to have to build that road then.

You are focusing on the immediate needs of people now, whereas I am focusing on the dysfunctionality that's going to continue into the future.

Freebies from the Western world aren't going to improve the lot of Africa. The only way their lot can be sustainably improved is by them reorganizing the way their communities work. No outsider can do that, and if they don't, no amount of external aid will help.

I hear Socrates wasn't popular either.

I'm no Socrates, but focusing on style instead of essence is incorrect.

Some of the best lessons I've learned were from people who were using a very blunt style.

I am not trying to appear superior, nor to gain status. If I wanted that, I would not be using a style which I know is likely to antagonize. I use a blunt style at the expense of my status and for the benefit of the message, not the other way around.

2mattnewport
You're saying some things which I've considered attempting to say but have self-censored to some extent due to expecting negative karma. You aren't necessarily saying them in exactly the way I would have tried to put it, and I don't necessarily agree with everything you've been saying but I broadly agree and have been upvoting most of your recent posts.

I'm not a Randian Objectivist, nor do I insist on everything leading to libertarian policies.

You seem to have misinterpreted me based on a preconceived notion of what other things are usually said by people who say this sort of thing. But I'm not one of those people.

Which is more functional and creative: a community that leverages its own potential and builds its own clinic, or a community that relies on outsiders to provide that clinic?

5MrHen
Which is more functional: An investment that leverages its own potential and uses its own resources, or an investment that leverages the resources of outsiders? A good investment is a good investment, regardless of where the resources are coming from. Bickering about which investments are better than others is fine and should be done, but I am not willing to write off all investments in others simply because they are unable to come up with the resources on their own.
4tut
Communities where the latter is an option are not prime targets for the project I was referring to. If you're in a poor community, scattered over a large swath of rural Africa, and the first thing you need to do to get a clinic is to build a few thousand klicks of road to someplace where you can get vaccines, what potential do you think that you can leverage to get that done?
1[anonymous]
How about a community that, thanks to charity-delivered polio vaccines 20 years ago, has the potential to build its own infrastructure (and the motivation, since, at the time under discussion, charity efforts have been redirected towards communities with higher incidence of polio)?

I see it as equivalent if your cost-benefit calculation values that which is functional and creative.

3Zack_M_Davis
Cost-benefit calculations are about contingent facts, which may be different in different cases; they do not indict the very nature of activities such as charity. I too value that which is functional and creative, and I agree that simply giving people money creates harmful incentive problems, but that just means that specific charitable programs must be carefully evaluated for their actual effectiveness. Money is indeed a useful mechanism, but this doesn't mean that the default market outcome is the best possible; it would be awfully strange if deliberate altruism had no power whatsoever. I think cost-benefit calculations usually take this kind of form. You know, "X is net bad under specific conditions A and B which usually obtain, unless C; however, ancillary considerations D, E, and F; therefore recommend Y until we get better evidence." Not: "X is bad and you're stupid for supporting it." Policy debates should not &c.
2[anonymous]
I.e. if one is a Randian Objectivist who redraws the sphere of moral concern in an unusual way so that libertarian policies are always morally best no matter what. This is exactly the sort of antics discussed in the article I linked. These are not broadly shared normative assumptions here and, as Robin Hanson says the resulting statements are boring. Anyone with a passing familiarity with Ayn Rand Objectivists and axiomatic libertarians can predict the forthcoming normative exclamations and the bottom-line reasoning in favor of certain pre-ordained conclusions, regardless of the empirical evidence.
6tut
Which is more functional and creative: A child who gets vaccinated at the nearby clinic, or the same child getting polio and losing the use of their legs because there was no nearby clinic. Your portrayal of charity is accurate if you look at what you get if you try to vote for charity, but it is not an accurate description of the best charities that have been discussed in this thread.

My observations aren't Randian in origin. At least, I haven't read her books; I even somewhat disapprove of her, from what I know of her idiosyncrasies as a person.

I do think that this is an important topic for this group to consider, because the community is about rationality. My observation is that many commenters seem to not be realizing the proper role of empathy in our emotional spectrum, and are trying to extent their empathy to their broader environment in ways that don't make sense.

Also, if my anti-empathy comment is being downvoted because it isn'... (read more)

6byrnema
This indicates you haven't understood me: pro-empathy IS the theme here on Less Wrong. For a variety of reasons, this community tends to have 'humanist goals'. This is considered to not be in conflict with rationality, because rationality is about achieving your goals, not choosing them. If you have a developed rational argument for why less charity would further humanist goals, there may be some interest, but much less interest if your argument seems based on a lack of humanist goals.
3mattnewport
There is some relevant discussion of the issue of how our empathy/instinctive moral reactions conflict with efficient markets in this interview with Hayek. The whole thing is worth watching but the most relevant part of the interview to this discussion starts at 45:25. Unfortunately Vimeo does not support links directly to a timestamp so you have to wait for the video to load before jumping to the relevant point. ETA a particularly relevant quote:
4tut
People do to some extent vote based on what they agree with, and at least a few make no bones about that. But people also vote based on style. Based on if it feels like you are trying to learn and contribute to our learning or trying to appear superior and gain status. You look like the latter to me. And I think that you could be arguing the same things, in ways that are no less honest, and get positive karma if you just use different words.

Thanks.

Oh, well now it's -6. :))

Please clarify. The article you link to is sensible, yet I do not see what part of it is at odds with what I wrote.

I am essentially saying that charity is harmful because the cost-benefit calculation comes out negative when charity is used outside of the context in which it works (a small, closely knit social group).

5Morendil
It seems like a drastic overgeneralization to say that the cost-benefit calculation will always come out negative when charity is used outside of that context. For instance, I'm sympathetic to your argument when applied to giving money to a homeless person in my neighborhood who looks like they might buy liquor with it, far less so when you denounce efforts to aid starving people in countries that remain poor after having been essentially pillaged by my ancestors and yours. How are these people "dysfunctional and destructive"?
0[anonymous]
See here.
3Zack_M_Davis
I don't read these as equivalent: .

Actually thinking that out loud makes you honest. People who think of themselves as compassionate are much the same as I described, except that they would rather have me not exist, because my existence violates their values. Instead, they would prefer the existence of non-contributing people who need their help. (I have actually heard that from folks like that, in quite those words.)

The difference between me and such people is that they don't understand themselves - nor the dynamics of the world we live in. It's frustrating to be labeled a heartless bastar... (read more)

Jack12-1

It's also interesting to see how karma on this site falls steadily with honesty,

People downvote views that are ill-defined, poorly thought out, impolite, morally repugnant or just dumb. The fact that someone might hold such views honestly is basically irrelevant.

6Nick_Tarleton
I'm sure this is often the case, but please don't overgeneralize. Your grandparent post is at +2 as I write this.

I think I'm with Wei in his analysis - resolving the inconsistency from the top down, not from the bottom up.

I accept that our feelings of empathy and compassion are something evolution came up with in order to make us function decently in small groups. I accept that this empathy works only for small groups, and cannot scale to groups that are too large for everyone to keep track of each other. Maintaining cohesion and functionality in larger groups requires formal mechanisms such as hierarchy and money, and empathy is at best of marginal value, or at wors... (read more)

1A1987dM
How so?
-5brazil84
1thomblake
I agree with you for the most part, except that actually thinking that out loud has the tendency to make one a heartless bastard, and I don't want to be that sort of person.
3MrHen
Honestly, the system is doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing. If you think it is broken, I suspect you are expecting it to do something other than its purpose. When I get frustrated by the karma system it is because I keep wanting more feedback than it provides. But this is a problem with me, not a problem with the system.
0byrnema
Incidentally, I also up-voted your comment about how charity is unhelpful because it enables helplessness (even though I disagree) because I definitely think its valuable to have both arguments represented. However, I did expect your comment would be down-voted because my impression is that the group here has already considered Ayn Rand and disagree with her ideologically. I wouldn't say they found your comment offensive ... there's just certain themes that are developed here more than others and that was an anti-theme note. Do you think having certain 'group themes' is bad for rationality?
3mattnewport
I already upvoted you before reading this comment. It can take a little time for votes to settle. Also, you can set your threshold to a different value. The default is less than -2.
Morendil140

You're getting downvoted for overconfidence, not for the content of your point of view.

The utilitarian point of view is that beyond some level of salary, more money has very small marginal utility to an average First World citizen, but would have a huge direct impact in utility on people who are starving in poor countries.

Your point is that the indirect impacts should also be considered, and that perhaps when they are taken into account the net utility increase isn't so clear. The main indirect impact you identify is increasing dependency on the part of th... (read more)

Yes, but charity is not without external consequence.

The continuous rewarding of the dysfunctional does have long term effects, which I believe are negative on balance.

The reason we evolved empathy is for cohesion with our immediate social group, where our empathy is balanced with everyone keeping track of everyone else, and an effective sense of group fairness.

But this only works within our immediate social group. Charity towards complete strangers is harmful because it is not balanced with fairness.

To balance our economic interactions outside the immedia... (read more)

If F(n) < n, then yes, karma disappears from the system when voting on comments, but is pumped back in when voting on articles.

It does appear that the choice of a suitable F(n) isn't quite obvious, and this is probably why F(n) = infinite is currently used.

Still, I think that a more restrictive choice would produce better results, and less frivolous voting.

Voted down for failing to get the point.

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