All of ekramer's Comments + Replies

ekramer100

Some people thrive for decades (including Stephen Hawking) tube fed with nutritionally complete enteral formulas. Semi-annual blood tests pick up any deficiencies, and supplements are added if needed. Several companies make "Soylent", the one I am familiar with is Abbott Nutrition.

If there's something there that isn't priced for sale to hospitals, or restricted in sale to hospitals, and has been formulated so as to be edible by people who are tired of real food, go ahead and post it. My understanding is that tube-feeding is not the same use-case as Soylent at all, with tube-fed material needing to be essentially predigested and correspondingly expensive or something along those lines, and no concern for edible taste for obvious reasons.

I've done some looking, but I haven't seen anything out there that looks like it's meant to be eaten, meant to replace food, and priced at an affordable level for sole consumption.

4JacekLach
But there is a significant difference between taking a medical formula under doctors supervision and mixing up the most common nutrition ingredients and claiming it to be a cure-all-be-all food. Didn't the guy forget to include iron in his first mixture? Another 'Soylent' equivalent I know of is Sustagen Hospital Formula.
ekramer00

So you would be willing to keep sending more and more people to torture for trivial less discomfort for the majority for each person tortured. At what point would you say enough is enough?

1BerryPick6
Once the positive consequences are outweighed by the negative consequences, obviously.
ekramer00

Don’t be bamboozled by big numbers, it is exactly the same problem: How far would you go to maximize pain in the minority in order to minimize it in the majority. As Eliezer argued so forcefully in the comments above, this problem exists on a continuum and if you want to break the chain at any point you have to justify why that point and not another.

Your argument for 1:1,000,000 does not go far enough in minimising pain for the majority. One person cannot take the pain of 1,000,000 people without dying or at least becoming unconscious. I suspect the ma... (read more)

4Kindly
When did we start talking about someone "taking the pain of other people"? This is news to me; it wasn't part of the argument before. This, I understand is the reason you're suggesting that I would torture 1 in 25 people. Well, I wouldn't torture 1 in 25 people. I have already stated that if the total amount of pain is conserved (there may be difficulties with measuring "total pain", but bear with me here) then I prefer it to be spread out evenly rather than piled onto one person. In the dust speck formulation, the 3^^^3 being dustspecked are, in aggregate, suffering much more than the one person being tortured. 3^^^3 is very large. For any continuum you could actually describe that ends in "torture 1 in X people so that the remainder live perfect lives", X will still be approximately 3^^^3. Possibly divided by some insignificant number like googolplex that can be writtten down in mere scientific notation. At no point did anyone accept your 1:25 proposal.
ekramer30

OK, so you would accept less than one person per universe to be tortured for 50 years for everyone to avoid occasional mild discomfort. But that doesn’t answer the question of how far you are willing to take this logic. We haven’t even began to touch serious discomfort like half the population getting menstrual cramps every month, let alone prolonged pain and suffering. Would you send one person per planet for torture? One person per city? One person per family?

The end result of this game is that a significant minority of people are being tortured at any one time so the majority can live lives free of discomfort, pain and suffering. So is your acceptable ratio 1:1,000,000, 1:10?

2Kindly
I'm pretty sure that right now more than 1 in 1,000,000 people around the world (that is, around 7000 people total) are experiencing suffering at least as bad as the hypothetical torture. Taking that into account, a ratio of 1:1,000,000 would be a strict improvement. Faced with a choice like that, I might selfishly refuse due to the chance that I would be one of the unlucky few, whereas right now I am doing pretty well compared to most people. But I would like to be the sort of person that wouldn't refuse. (I'm also not convinced that a life completely free of discomfort, pain, and suffering is possible or desirable; however, this objection doesn't reach the heart of the matter, so I'm willing to ignore it for the sake of argument.) The decision would be more difficult once we get to a ratio which does not strictly dominate our current situation. The terrible unfairness of a world where you're either free of all discomfort or being horribly tortured bothers me; for this reason, I think I wouldn't make the trade for any ratio where the total amount of suffering is roughly comparable to the status quo. I would have to do some research to give you a precise number. But now we are very far off from the original problem of dust specks vs. torture, in which the number 3^^^3 is specifically chosen to be sufficiently large that if you have an acceptable exchange rate at all, 1 : 3^^^3 will be acceptable to you.
ekramer00

I have been reading less wrong about 6 month but this is my first post. I'm not an expert but an interested amateur. I read this post about 3 weeks ago and thought it was a joke. After working through replies and following links, I get it is a serious question with serious consequences in the world today. I don’t think my comments duplicate others already in the thread so here goes…

Let’s call this a “one blink” discomfort (it comes and goes in a blink) and let’s say that on average each person gets one every 10 minutes during their waking hours. In re... (read more)

3Kindly
3^^^3 is very very very very large. If we're sending untold trillions of people to torture every year, out of 3^^^3 people total, that means that over the whole history of our universe, future and past, we have a vanishingly small chance of seeing a single person in our universe get taken away for torture. Two people is even more negligible. In the meantime, all discomforts up to the level of one mild cold get prevented for everyone. Heck, I'd be willing to absorb all the torture-probability our universe would receive for myself, just so I wouldn't have to suffer through the mild cold I'm having right now. I take a greater risk by walking down the stairs every day. Where do I sign up?
0BerryPick6
What makes you think that making the numbers bigger changes anything? Anyone who switches answers between the original question and yours is confused.