All of eugman's Comments + Replies

eugman
110

To me, it signals "If you are likely too impatient to read through the entirety of a science-heavy article, here is a rough summary. However, be warned that this is a compromise and doesn't capture the whole essence of the article." Whereas summary means "Here is everything you need to know, in short."

eugman
30

I'm not concerned with people here finding out who I am. I'm concerned with people who know who I am finding me here.

eugman
60

Because "Sarah" scares me. Also, some things I admit there would be embarrassing for those close to me to know about.

eugman
00

It sounds like a very good start. I can easily see how the use of letter can help with remembering the gestures. Let me know how the distraction one goes especially, because I have similar issues currently.

I'd say just monitor the process carefully. One, by trying to learn multiple gestures at once, you risk burning out on all of them. The two week timeframe seems like a good counter to that. Also, as I mentioned, be careful with a gesture for negative thoughts, especially because you have it linked to a letter. The gesture should be as general and sensation-linked as possible. That way you don't ever spark negative thoughts as a result of the gesture.

eugman
60

I should have clarified. It helps me deal with the heebie jeebies of walking in my backyard alone at night.

3SilasBarta
Thanks, that makes more sense :-)
eugman
40

May I make a comment? So first let me say you are right, it's bad to avoid negative thoughts. I think you made a very valid counterpoint and I updated on it. So I (now) think this is something one has to be careful with.

However, at times in one's life these depressive thoughts can be so overwhelming that none of them get the attention they need because the person just doesn't have the energy for them. So this has at least given me the chance to start fixing these thoughts, one at a time, instead of all at once.

eugman
20

More data! This apparently is also an awesome way to deal with the heebie jeebies of walking alone at night.

0[anonymous]
I'd also like to see more data. Not for the same reason specifically though. This whole approach is really incredible. I'm so impressed. Is anyone else here willing to give it a go and report back?
2SilasBarta
I think you tend to get that signal for a very good reason, and it's not generally not a signal you want to turn off.
eugman
50

My dominant hand, the right. Specifically the pointer finger. Sometimes, if my right hand is occupied, it will happen with my left hand. However, I usually get upset if it does, because it feels like I'm messing something up. I hate how bizarre this sounds, but it's as if my hands are speaking in homophones and the left hand has a slower, deeper pitch, so the word/gesture has a different meaning when coming from the left hand.

3argumzio
Interesting. I thought it would be. The left-hemisphere (controlling the right hand) is inhibitory of right-hemispheric activity, and so it would seem you've found a way for your left to counteract negative thinking patterns (which are typical of right-hemispheric thought).
eugman
90

After reflecting upon your statement, I believe that I committed a case of attribute substitution. I substituted "Is this a fully fleshed out idea?" with "Is this a long post?". Although, on further reflection, being fleshed out is perhaps necessary but definitely not sufficient for main.

7thomblake
Ah. This did not occur to me, since I tend to regard length as a cost.
eugman
-10

This seemed long enough that it shouldn't go in discussion. However, if anyone thinks otherwise, let me know and I'll move it.

7thomblake
Being long is not a disqualifier for being in discussion. In fact, every main post could go into discussion; the question is whether a post deserves to be in main.
eugman
50

I could do that. I feel a little silly writing a post right after this one. It feels redundant or like karma-hogging. Can anyone deprive me of my delusions?

Edit: Done

1[anonymous]
I as long as you are thorough, concrete and specify your method, you should have nothing to worry about, this post is pretty short and doesn't really tell how to implement your strategy, so you should not be running the risk of just rephrasing this post, if done right. Good luck!
3[anonymous]
Do it. I really want to see the specifics, and I'm guessing others do as well.
eugman
-10

Congratulations, you just earned yourself one "click." I've never really gotten quantum physics, not that I've tried much. But your description as a Hilbert space makes a lot of sense to me. It also helps me understand why "decomposing the wavefunction" is important or even necessary as a concept.

eugman
70

Well this had more upvotes than I was expecting.

eugman
10

Ok, just curious. One friend of mine is very similar in many regards and those were three of the biggest parallels in our lives. Technically he was INTJ, iffy on the J too.

Additionally, you would have been freaking out if all 3 had matched.

eugman
10

Do you have an android device? This tool was useful for me personally. It only covers facial expressions for the fundamental emotions; however, I can now reliably notice the disgust response in people where I couldn't before.

eugman
10

I get this too, and in fact have long speculated it to be the way that most people probably experience emotions.

Relevant?

0Crux
Yes. Thank you for the link.
eugman
00

It looks like I have to take back what I said. I was watching Moulin Rouge and a friend covered her eyes. It was the elephant room scene.

eugman
10

Do the the dimples on the side of your face approximate the big dipper? We are a part of a cloning project run secretly by the government in the late 80's.

More seriously, are you an INTP? Does one of your parents have a severe mental illness? Is the other an electric engineer?

0lavalamp
INTP, yes. I think-- been a while since I took one of those tests, the P might be iffy. The rest doesn't match, although there is mental illness in the family tree-- just not that close to me. Unless you count religion, anyway.
eugman
00

I can say, as an American, I've never met another person who had to cover their ears or eyes during a show because of this sensation.

0Sabiola
In the Netherlands it's apparently quite rare too.
eugman
00

Have you found any negative consequences from this exposure therapy?

1thejash
None that I've noticed It's actually quite nice not to feel personally liable when other people are doing stupid things anymore. If you're willing to generalize from one data point, I say go for it :) If you DO go for it, note that most of the benefit came from watching the first two seasons, so if you don't experience any change after that, it probably isn't worth pursuing. Also, I watched it with a bunch of friends who all clearly enjoyed it, so that might be a good detail to replicate if possible. Also if you try it, let me know how it turns out, I'm really curious.
eugman
60

One that I realized quite quickly, I have an uncomfortably strong level of empathy. Or more accurately, a strong discomfort towards emotional disharmony in others. The strongest is in strong arguments or social awkwardness. I can barely stand to watch those intentionally awkward scenes in sitcoms and movies.

I have a preternatural ability to see what others are trying to say. This comes out in two ways. One, if someone is talking to me, and they make an error, my brain will autotranslate. So if they said brother and meant father, I will hear what they meant... (read more)

2lavalamp
Your first three paragraphs describe me to a bizarrely high degree of accuracy.
1[anonymous]
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7thejash
I also had an uncomfortably strong level of empathy specifically towards people doing something that would make me uncomfortable, in a social sense. When I watched someone talking and embarrassing themselves in class for example, it felt like my insides were trying to escape my skin. This actually went away after watching all of the seasons of The Office (the American version). However, I'm pretty sure I feel an abnormally low amount of empathy for other emotional states in other people (both positive and negative, this was unaffected by watching The Office)
eugman
30

Ah, so let me apologize. I think there was some confusion. Also you hit a bit of a landmine for me. There's been one person I've met who was so invalidating regarding mental illness. Sarah's sister actually. She basically told us that unless Sarah had something written from a doctor, she didn't have bpd ("I think you have anger problems"). She also discredited my depression ("Look, I've gotten really sad before too"). So whenever it sounds like someone is suggesting mental illness isn't real I get quite defensive.

Secondly, I agree that ... (read more)

eugman
20

Hi, this comment caused me to vote in this poll, in protest of its validity. I do agree actually that sanctions should be made, preferably norm based ones like lessdazed suggested. The protest is what the poll is clear of exactly. Such a poll is representative of the outliers. Specifically, anyone past the threshold it takes to make a vote. If you conclusions are based on that subset of people, then I have no disagreement.

eugman
40

Upvoted for making an extremely valid point. I begrudgingly have to admit the possibility that I personally engaged in gross acts of confirmation bias and that all the evidence I have to support my argument is invalid. I'm not quite sure where that leaves me.....

9[anonymous]
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eugman
70

I should point out that this was a self-diagnosis, not a professional one. On the other hand, to be considered borderline for the DSM IV-TR, you have to meet 5 out of 9 criteria. She met all of them. Now, I don't know if I believe that she had a "malady" as you describe it. However, here is what I do believe.

I believe that there are a constellation of correlated, stable, and self-sustaining personality attributes reasonably referred to as BPD. I believe that they are multi-causal and cannot be reduced to a few simple things, like control issues.... (read more)

0JimL
I think your implication of highly specific partner preference gives the impression that I am wrong on this last point. It implies such behavior is whimsical and easy to change, if only the person were to wish it. I was in no way trying to minimize your post. Actually, my attempt was to suggest the opposite; it is absolutely difficult to change behavior. Habit tied with emotionality is fantastically sturdy and able to withstand all manner of influence. My beleaguered point was that I find neurosis interpreted as life stories buttressed by habits and emotionally charged mind thoughts more helpful and actionable than clawing through my childhood or viewing it through a malady / psychoanalysis matrix. I can then work on actions and behaviors, and changing how I choose to react to a stimulus. I don't necessarily have to spend so much time trying to understand how I got there. IOW, I am attracted to any model that emphasizes choice and inner control. It emphasizes my freedom, the space between stimulus and response where my choice can exist. I am enervated by concentrating on that space and enlarging it. It is one of the reasons cognitive behavioral psychology has had such a significant effect on the discipline.
3wedrifid
The story you describe seems fairly straight forward. It's basically a cookie cutter example of of a BPD-codependent relationship that occurs with sickening frequency. It could plausibly be all in your imagination but in that case you clearly have enough knowledge about the subject to write a plausible fictional autobiographical account!
2MixedNuts
Yeah, but the criteria are super vague. I too meet all of them, and I'm not even surprised; that's usual for most personality disorders. I think the diagnosis criteria are just trying to point in the vague direction of a cluster so that people with experience with it (psychiatrists or patients, for example) may recognize it. Edit to add: I'm not criticizing self-diagnosis. I'm criticizing diagnosis on the basis of DSM criteria alone, as opposed to comparison with other people with the disorder.
eugman
20

It was honestly more for me than for her. Although at this point it's hard to recall for whose sake it was.

eugman
60

Funny note: because I moved this article to main, my karma is at 248 but my karma gained this month is at 395.

eugman
10

You may, but I can't tell you in public for reasons, if stated, would probably have the same effect. Instead I'll cruelly tease you with a riddle.

She said to me "Honey,
I've got something to share."
But something was taken
and can't be repaired.

eugman
100

It's rather complicated I'm afraid.

So, that was the main issue. And that's what I tried to convey in the post, not to characterize a user as stupid. I'd be more than happy to change it or make a footnote, but I'm having trouble picking out what precisely to change.

That being said, I'm sure there's a lot of emotional leakage going on. When it comes to the subject, I'm guessing I'm suffering from the horns effect, so I apologize to everyone for that. There are a number of confounding factors that makes it difficult to extract the main issue.

My only primary i... (read more)

0MatthewBaker
It sounds like she had a great deal of trouble using drugs responsibly and your great patience in dealing which such a sensitive issue should be lauded. The money sink problems behind substances use are the dropping point for many, If you cant budget your expenses correctly you probably can't deal with a substance that costs deceivingly low amounts of money tied to a stealthy and long term addictive neurochemical. Vaporization of Nicotine and Cannabis seems like a good solution to the problem but in my experience chronic users usually stick to what they know and pass on the more efficient and safer method against all medical advice. May I ask what the devilish bargain was perchance? It may be private but my curiosity begs the question.
eugman
10

I've decided to just change the title to simplify things. If anyone has any better suggestions for it, let me know. Instead of awkwardly trying to fit in an explanation, I thought it better to just remove the reference. I think this post deviated from my original vision quite a bit.

eugman
10

This is correct. I realize this may differ some from the strict definition but I feel the same tools were used, conscious or otherwise. Thus, the information is relevant in case someone ever consciously tries to manipulate you in the same way. Also, intentionallity is a spectrum. You may be a consciously trying to manipulate but feel justified and not view it as manipulation, as was probably often the case with her.

6Raemon
I liked the article fine, but I do think if "dark arts" is going to be used in the title you should spend a few sentences at some point explaining it (in particular for newcomers to site who won't know what dark arts means in the first place, let alone Lesswrongians who know what it means but are still slightly confused as to your intent)
eugman
30

I read the link. It was spot on and I feel like I should be really really angry.

eugman
50

Yes I did. I spent nearly all my time with her and she didn't trust me alone so that sort of thing happened on it's own.

eugman
100

I would too. Since there isn't a post-sized crater in the ground that I was expecting, What should I do about that? Is the protocol to repost or just have an admin move it?

And thank you for the compliment. I took quite the emotional risk in making it so I'm glad it was worth it.

0RobertLumley
I think admins can move it. You may be able to edit it and change where it's posted to; I'm not sure. I've never posted in main. XD
eugman
30

Unabashedly, yes. However, the healthy view would have been to see the issues in both of us simultaneously. That was the bigger issue.

eugman
140

I'll read them both when I get a chance. I had gotten her some e-cigs but she quit those after a while. I'm willing to admit that one can use many substances in a safe rational way. However, I take issue when those substances are far more important than your relationship with your fiance. I know I shouldn't dictate someone else's life, but it always felt like drugs came first and I came second and I wish she had been upfront about that from the beginning. (Yes, I am quite bitter about this)

9NancyLebovitz
I thought the issue wasn't so much the cigarettes and cannabis as that she promised to quit them and then didn't.
eugman
120

I didn't know where I stood from one minute to the next. I could go from being her closest friend to her most hated enemy, and back again, in the space of one conversation. It was bizarre and incredibly addictive.

Take this. Now make this person someone you love so deeply you'd die for them. Your most intimate relation that you trust with secrets you wouldn't tell anyone else. There are not words in the English language to properly describe this sensation.

But it was an interesting experience. Almost like joining a cult.

I hate to exaggerate, but the s... (read more)

8Viliam_Bur
There are some differences, but there are many similarities. Once I knew a couple of a psychopath and his girlfriend, and in my mind I called them a cult of two: one leader and one devout follower. The base difference is that one happens in an exclusive sexual pair setting, while the other happens in social group setting. From this, other differences logically follow, for example a group may be actively recruiting, the pair is not; in a group there is a competition between followers, in pair the follower is unique; etc. Similarities: * leader chooses how you live, and who do you interact with -- the choice usually depends on whether that person approves the leader; * you should do your best to be perfect -- a perfect follower that is; * if you break a rule, even in your thoughts, you should admit it openly, so it can be prevented -- and also you can be negatively conditioned; * you are discouraged to use an "outside view", because your group/pair is special, so normal considerations do not apply; * neither is any other epistemology viable.
eugman
10

This is very good advice. Difficult too, as my natural inclinations lead me to play therapist very easily.

eugman
30

My first thought, the scariest thought, is that there is no point. Looking back it's hard to see a clear point. Instead it was a chain built link by link. A gradual descent into hell. But then I thought more and I had tried to break up before, so one of those times. The first of which was a time where she wanted me to basically exclude my father from our wedding if he wouldn't support us. Other good choices would be one of the first times I was bawling on the floor or physically stopping her from committing suicide (although it was likely gesturing).

4Raemon
Good to know. I had my first relationship this year, it lasted a month, and I spent most of the time trying to gracefully end it (eventually opting instead for a scorched earth approach that I'm not particularly proud of). I had the advantage of realizing pretty quickly that it was a bad idea. (I'll be talking about this at more length in another post at some point). What was concerning about your story was, as you said, it wasn't immediately clear where to end it. I think people with mental disorders deserve to at least be given a shot, which I have a hard time reconciling with the knowledge that maintaining such a relationship is incredibly hard and you have to consider your own wellbeing and most of the time, honestly it probably will turn out not to be worth it. Part of the reason I wanted to get out of my "relationship" quickly was the realization that not only did we have no long term prospects, but she had a lot of legitimate problems that she needed help with and if I tried to help her with them she'd come to depend on me and then it'd suck for her even more when I eventually needed out.
eugman
10

That's quite the compliment, but I'll take it. The best part is this is my natural mode of thought: highly non-sequential.

eugman
50

This post was inspired by that one, although I wanted to do the same thing in a very different style.

This is true, however I didn't see the subject matter listed here: "In future posts we'll develop an action plan for using the science of attraction to create successful romantic relationships. We'll also explain how rationality helps with relationship maintenance and relationship satisfaction."

eugman
10

It's the only node my mind has a strong casual link for. I can see arguments for others, but you have to understand she didn't just enjoy quality time with me, she devoured it. And that's the only reason at the time I could think of why it was so extreme.

eugman
90

I don't know if this sort of information is wanted, but your post keeps setting off my sarcasm detector.

-1DoubleReed
No, I'm not being sarcastic, though I can see how it seems like that. I'll try to avoid coming off that way. That information surprised me. Maybe it seems obvious to other people (or possibly hindsight bias), but I don't think that's obvious at all.
eugman
20

I've completed a first draft of the post based on this, in case anyone would be willing to provide suggestions.

eugman
-10

Personally, I see it as a fair tradeoff: one implies a falsehood in order to prime people to give better answers to a specific question.

eugman
40

I'd really like to see this concept combined with build small skills in the right order. I'd love to see small, quickly learned skills that optimize life. I think GTD has a lot of this type of skill in it.

eugman
00

Which question? Whether or not to teach him to lie? For that one my answers are: I don't know, it's not my place to say, no, yes and I'm not sure how. In that order. More concretely, I think it's important you teach him to be honest and teach him the social game because I personally benefited from learning both. As to how, it's hard to say, but if he's anything like me, he's a high level thinker, so go meta. Talk about economics, talk about the difference between content and form, talk about communication and signaling.. Explain that by responding in a li... (read more)

eugman
00

Maybe your child is an INTP

On the other hand, their ability to grasp complexity may also lead them to provide overly detailed explanations of simple ideas, and listeners may judge that the INTP makes things more difficult than they need to be. To the INTPs' mind, they are presenting all the relevant information or trying to crystallize the concept as clearly as possible.

I was definitely like this and I still am, although I'm finally getting better. I was always honest to a fault, especially as a child. In fact, I didn't even want to say things that wer... (read more)

0irrational
He probably is an INTP, although it's too early to tell. I am too. That doesn't really answer the question:)
eugman
10

Ah, sorry I checked out links 2 and 3 and thought they were all twitter links. Very interesting! Thank you for your patience.

eugman
00

Do you have any theory as to why?

1[anonymous]
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