All of fare's Comments + Replies

If wireheading were a serious policy proposal being actively pursued with non-negligible chances of success, I would be shooting to kill wireheaders, not arguing with them.

I am arguing precisely because Jeff and other people musing about wireheading are not actual criminals—but might inspire a future criminal AI if their argument is accepted.

Arguing about a thought experiment means taking it seriously, which I do. And if the conclusion is criminal, this is an important point that needs to be stated. When George Bernard Shaw calmly claims the politic... (read more)

The STV supposes that pleasantness is valuable independently from the agent's embedding in reality—thus is a Pixie Dust Theory of Happiness, that I indeed argue against in my essay (see section "A Pixie Dust Theory of Happiness").

While the examples and repetition used in the paragraph cited are supposed to elicit a strong emotion, the underlying point holds: If you're trying to find the most emotional happiness intensive moment to reproduce, a violent joyful emotion from an insane criminal mastermind is more likely to be it than ... (read more)

After my massive negative score from the post above was reduced by time, I could eventually post the sequel on this site: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/w4MenDETroAm3f9Wj/a-refutation-of-global-happiness-maximization

You don't get it. Murder is NOT an abstract variable in the previous comment. It's a constant.

0thomblake
I thought I understood what I was saying, but I don't understand what you're saying. What?

No, no, no. The point is: for any fixed set of questions, higher IQ will be positively correlated with believing in better answers. Yet people with higher IQ will develop beliefs about new, bigger and grander questions; and all in all, on their biggest and grandest questions, they fail just as much as lower-IQ people on theirs. Just with more impact. Including more criminal impact when these theories, as they are wont to do, imply the shepherding (and often barbecuing) the mass of their intellectual inferiors.

6gwern
Stupid people seem to have no problem believing in answers to the biggest and grandest questions, like 'it's the Jews fault' or 'God loves me'.

Once again, "ideology" is but an insult for theories you don't like. All in all your post is but gloating at being more subtle than other people. Speak of an "analytical" state of mind.

But granted - you ARE more subtle than most. And yet, you still maintain blissful ignorance of some basic laws of human action.

PS: the last paragraph of your previous comment suggests that if you're into computer science, you might be interested Gerald J. Sussman's talk about "degeneracy".

4jimrandomh
Is that the model you're using to predict my responses? That I "maintain blissful ignorance" of a few important things, and that I'd change my perspective if only I knew them? If that were true, what would you expect to see? How does this compare to what you observe? There is something important going on here that you haven't noticed.

Even in engineering and business schools, socialism is stronger than it ought to be and plays a strong role of censorship, "affirmative" action, selection of who's allowed to rise, etc. But it has less impact there, because (1) confrontation to reality and reason weakens it, (2) engineering is about control over nature, not over men, therefore politics isn't directly relevant, (3) power-mongers want to maximize their impact as such, therefore flock to other schools.

1buybuydandavis
I spent about a decade getting my PhD/MS/BS in EE. I can't recall any instructors ever expressing political ideas of any sort in their official capacities, and that's both as a student and in various TA and RA positions. There must have been some side comments on politics, but I never felt any pressure associated with them. Part of it was probably the engineering culture and personality - engineers tend to be intellectually confident and are happier disagreeing than agreeing. PC social pressure can't find a lot of purchase in such an environment.

I assume no such causation. I do assume a correlation, which is brought about by evolution: cooperation beats conflict.

I don't understand your "simpler rejection" as stated.

0buybuydandavis
? I think evolution has shown that the bigger stick beats the smaller stick. Genghis Khan has something like 16 million male direct descendants. But that's besides the point. A thriving meme does not imply a meme "good" for us, any more than a thriving virus implies a virus that is "good" for us. Sting: And when their eloquence escapes you, their logic ties you up and rapes you. Or to say it another way, "I can't refute an argument" <> "The conclusions of the argument are true." The fact that you can't see why it's wrong does not make it true. The fancier and shmancier an argument is, the more this applies.
2jimrandomh
You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. My comment was meta - it is about the structure that peoples' beliefs ought to have. I changed the topic entirely, using your post as a source of inspiration and examples. If you read it expecting a rebuttal, then it wasn't a very good one. It probably skewed your interpretation a lot, because that's not what it was at all. It talks about specific beliefs only as examples, and not to endorse or oppose them. Please reread my earlier comment with adjusted priors, and try to do so calmly, in your most analytical state of mind.

If I put some em in a context that makes him happy and that somehow "counts", what if I take the one em whose happiness is maximal (by size / cost / whatever measure), then duplicate the very same em, in the very same context, ad infinitum, and have 1 gazillion copies of him, e.g. being repeatedly jerked off by $starlet ? Does each new copy count as much as the original? Why? Why not? What if the program was run on a tandem computer for redundancy, with two processors in lock step doing the same computation? Is it redundant in that case, or does ... (read more)

You should DEFINITELY read Greg Egan's "Permutation City", where he explores all kinds of such concept even to the point of absurdity -- but you are the one who gets to decide where it starts to be absurd and why; he just does the exploring in a delicious SF novel.

Happily, the criminal rapture of the overintelligent nerd has little chance of being implemented in our current world, unlike the criminal rapture of the ignorant and stupid masses (see socialism, islamism, etc.). That's why your proposed mass crimes won't happen - though god forbids you convince early AIs of that model of happiness to maximize.

What more, massive crime in the name of such a theory is massively criminal. That your theories lead you to consider such massive crime should tip you that your theories are wrong, not that you should deplore your inability to conduct large-scale crime. You remind me of those communist activist cells who casually discuss their dream of slaughtering millions of innocents in concentration camps for the greatness of their social theories. http://www.infowars.com/obama-mentor-wanted-americans-put-in-re-education-camps/

0fare
Happily, the criminal rapture of the overintelligent nerd has little chance of being implemented in our current world, unlike the criminal rapture of the ignorant and stupid masses (see socialism, islamism, etc.). That's why your proposed mass crimes won't happen - though god forbids you convince early AIs of that model of happiness to maximize.

This reminds me of similar pixie dust theories of freedom: see my essay at http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/fmftcl.html

In the end, happiness, freedom, etc., are functional sub-phenomena of life, i.e. self-sustaining behavior. Trying to isolate these phenomena from the rest of living behavior, what more to "maximize" them, is absurd on its face - even more so than trying to isolate magnetic monopoles and maximize their intensity.

0fare
What more, massive crime in the name of such a theory is massively criminal. That your theories lead you to consider such massive crime should tip you that your theories are wrong, not that you should deplore your inability to conduct large-scale crime. You remind me of those communist activist cells who casually discuss their dream of slaughtering millions of innocents in concentration camps for the greatness of their social theories. http://www.infowars.com/obama-mentor-wanted-americans-put-in-re-education-camps/

Either way, this sounds like the pixie dust theory of happiness: happiness as some magic chemical (one with very short shelf life, though), that you have to synthesize as much as possible of before it decays. I bet you one gazillion dollar the stereo-structure of that chemical is paper-clip shaped.

0fare
This reminds me of similar pixie dust theories of freedom: see my essay at http://fare.tunes.org/liberty/fmftcl.html In the end, happiness, freedom, etc., are functional sub-phenomena of life, i.e. self-sustaining behavior. Trying to isolate these phenomena from the rest of living behavior, what more to "maximize" them, is absurd on its face - even more so than trying to isolate magnetic monopoles and maximize their intensity.