All of Florin's Comments + Replies

Florin10

...EN argues that any sufficiently expressive cognitive system—such as the human brain—must generate internal propositions that are arithmetically undecidable. These undecidable structures function as evolutionarily advantageous analogues to Gödel sentences, inverted into the belief in raw subjective experience (qualia), despite being formally unprovable within the system itself.

Rather than explaining subjective illusions away in third-person terms, EN proposes that they arise as formal consequences of self-referential modeling, constrained by the exp

... (read more)
Florin*10

We keep getting better at curing disease and preventing death, but this makes little difference in our fight against aging, due to its exponential nature.


Almost no age-related disease or condition can currently be prevented or cured. They can be somewhat slowed, but that's about it. A rare exception is cataracts; it can be cured by replacing the eye's lens.

Florin10

This concept is inspired by established systems like Nordic civilian defense against nuclear threats or lifeboats on ships.


But those systems weren't designed with the survival of humanity in mind, and so, they're obviously going to be much less robust.

I might not have emphasized this sufficiently in the post, but the aim is not to achieve near 100% robustness. Instead, the goal is to provide people with a fair chance of survival in a subset of crisis scenarios. 

My initial intuition is that even if 70% of the units function effectively in a crisis, thi

... (read more)
Florin10

I just thought of another showstopper that makes the other issues now seem insignificant: how could you ever determine whether or not the suits and shelters work to prevent bacterial contamination? The problem here is that humans are already "contaminated" and another problem is that the world isn't contaminated with a unique kind of bacteria or bacteria-sized particle that you could test for. So, there's actually nothing to test for. Even if you could test for something, how could you even detect one or a few bacteria that got through? I don't see any way... (read more)

1Florin
But those systems weren't designed with the survival of humanity in mind, and so, they're obviously going to be much less robust. You need to think about how much time these shelters could buy. 70% survival for how long? A few months is probably doable, but shelters and their associated infrastructure will not last forever. If shelters buy a few months of survival, the crisis will need to be solved in a few months. That also means the shelters will need to be targeted to experts that might be able to provide a solution or allow enough time for a solution that already existed to disperse and kill off the mirror bacteria. If a solution will need to be developed, a lot of time will need to be spent in unprotected labs which will increase risk. Think about this: you're stuck in a suit, you can't eat, drink, peep, poop, or even type fast (because you have thick gloves), while at the same time you're trying to do complicated experiments to save the world. These scenarios aren't impossible to survive, but I expect they'll have a high likelihood of failure. So you'd probably want to aim for a least a few years rather than months. To stretch survival to years, you'd need to do a hell of a lot more real-world testing and design work. There's no close-enough precedent for what you're trying to do; I highly doubt that you can only rely on lessons from cleanrooms, labs, or nuclear bunkers. Has any cleanroom or lab demonstrated perfect containment for years? How about the mobile kind? Nuclear bunkers aren't designed to be livable for years or be sterile. At best, lab testing and case studies can indicate that hardware may work, not that it will work in the real world. And there's a lot more to consider besides maintaining the mechanical and electrical system that supports the suit and shelter filtering system. You'd also need climate control systems; that's one heat pump for the suit and one for the shelter. You'd need cooking devices and indoor air cleaners or an air recirc
1Ulrik Horn
Regarding the Level of Robustness I might not have emphasized this sufficiently in the post, but the aim is not to achieve near 100% robustness. Instead, the goal is to provide people with a fair chance of survival in a subset of crisis scenarios. This concept is inspired by established systems like Nordic civilian defense against nuclear threats or lifeboats on ships. Neither of these protections guarantees survival for everyone—lifeboats, for instance, are not designed to save lives in every conceivable disaster, such as an airplane crash into shallow water at high speed. The shelters are similarly intended to offer a reasonable chance of survival under specific catastrophic scenarios, recognizing that perfection is neither feasible nor necessary. Setting Performance Requirements Determining the appropriate performance threshold will require ongoing dialogue and input from various stakeholders, including potential users. There are several considerations: * User Expectations: Inhabitants’ wants, needs, and available resources will play a significant role in defining acceptable performance levels. * Justifying the Investment: The level of protection must also justify the effort and resources required to produce and deploy the shelters. For example, a hypothetical 90% survival rate might make this intervention compelling compared to doing nothing. On the other hand, if the expected success rate falls near or below 1%, the intervention is unlikely to garner much support. My initial intuition is that even if 70% of the units function effectively in a crisis, this would be a success. However, these thresholds should not be set arbitrarily—they should involve input from a wide range of stakeholders, particularly those who might depend on these shelters for survival.
1Ulrik Horn
On Gasket Leaks For the current production, we plan to use certified components to ensure reliability. For example, the Camfil CamCube AC is certified and tested to Leakage Class C, meaning that the overall ductwork-filter assembly performs at least as well as the filter alone. This level of quality control significantly reduces the likelihood of leaks in the system. It’s true that during a large-scale crisis, the luxury of certified components might not always be available. Your suggestion of using permanent bonds could indeed be a practical solution in such cases. As mentioned elsewhere, there is still time to prepare for scaling up production, which includes exploring how to adapt to components of varying sizes, qualities, and production environments. Ensuring robust performance across diverse conditions will be an important part of this preparation.
1Ulrik Horn
Hi Florin, Thank you for raising these points. I’m breaking my responses into separate comments to ensure we tackle each thoroughly. Here, I’ll address your concerns about testing: Testing for these shelters involves two distinct stages, each addressing a different challenge: Design and Physics Testing: Can the system work in principle? This stage focuses on validating whether the design meets theoretical and engineering requirements for contamination prevention. * Particle Filtration: Shelters are particle-agnostic, meaning inert particles (e.g., aerosols or dust in the 0.3–1.0 micron range) can be used to simulate real-world contamination scenarios. This eliminates concerns about biological sterility during testing. * Proven Reductions: Sequential filtration systems, such as those studied at Los Alamos, have already demonstrated extreme levels of filtration efficacy, achieving 13-log reductions under controlled conditions. Similarly, pressurized cleanrooms provide real-world evidence that positive pressure and filtration can prevent particle intrusion, even in demanding environments. These precedents suggest that 14-log reductions are achievable with proper design. * Envelope Integrity: Testing with simulated pinhole leaks and pressure differentials can confirm whether the positive pressure prevents inward contamination under scenarios like wind gusts or mechanical stress. The good news is that we have time to carry out these tests thoroughly before shelters need to be deployed. This stage is about getting even higher certainty around core physics and engineering principles in a deliberate and methodical way. Production-Quality Testing: Were the units manufactured to meet the design’s specifications? This stage ensures that individual shelters and suits perform to spec once they are mass-produced. * Challenges Under Time Pressure: If a crisis emerges, manufacturing will need to ramp up quickly, and ensuring consistent quality at scale becomes harder
Florin52

-air supply leaks: the whole air supply is inside the shelter with a fan at the inside end. Thus, any leak goes from clean to dirty and is not an issue


I'm not sure what you're describing here. Unless you're talking about some sort of closed-loop system (like on a submarine or spacecraft), leaks are always a possibility. Can you share an illustration of what you're trying to describe?

-leaks through membrane (including airlock doors): not a major issue, the positive pressure will not let anything from the outside come inside

It might not be a major issue for ... (read more)

3Ulrik Horn
Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify these points and address potential weaknesses. I've included a drawing to illustrate the air supply concept. Air Supply Leaks The below diagram illustrates the airflow dynamics. The air system is designed with a series of pressure gradients (P1 > P5 > P4 > P3 > P2), ensuring that any leak results in airflow from clean to dirty areas, not the reverse. This mechanism minimizes contamination risks, even in the event of small leaks. This principle is widely used in cleanroom and laboratory settings to maintain sterile environments. Membrane Integrity and Large Holes You're correct that larger holes or tears could compromise the shelter. To mitigate this, the material used for the shelter will be selected for its tear resistance and self-limiting properties. Existing materials for bubble hotels, for example, do not propagate tears. For DIY or lower-cost implementations, layering materials (e.g., plastic sheets reinforced with fabric) could provide additional durability. There is already extensive research on tear resistant fabrics, as well as substantial data from people actually living in such structures, such as bubble hotels. For mass production, it would be useful to carry out research on how to achieve tear resistance across a variety of materials and fabrication methods. Component Failures While no system is failure-proof, redundancy and robustness are central to the shelter's design. Key measures include: * Longevity Testing: Components will undergo extensive real-world and simulated stress testing. Suppliers' lifetime analyses will be leveraged to ensure reliability. * Redundant Systems: Critical systems like air supply will have manual overrides and backup power (e.g., a UPS to sustain operation during power transitions). Simple mechanical solutions will be emphasized to reduce dependence on complex electronics - in a crisis it can probably be assumed that one could rely on
1Ulrik Horn
Just a note that I intend to answer this comment, but it might be a couple of days.
Florin62

This shelter idea has many points of potential failure, possible showstoppers, and assuming a small population of shelters (hundreds or a few thousand), seems extremely unlikely to maintain an MVP for more than a few months.

Points of failure:

  • Leaks from the air and water filtration system (e.g., gasket leaks)
  • Leaks from the airlock
  • Leaks from the biohazard suits
  • Leaks from the shelter membrane
  • Shutdown of the filtration system due to mechanical or electrical failure

Showstoppers:

  • Food production or storage will require massive warehouses using the same extreme fi
... (read more)
1Ulrik Horn
You raise important points but some of these issues are less of a concern: -air supply leaks: the whole air supply is inside the shelter with a fan at the inside end. Thus, any leak goes from clean to dirty and is not an issue -leaks through membrane (including airlock doors): not a major issue, the positive pressure will not let anything from the outside come inside -shutdown due to failure of critical components is not foreseen to be an issue - all components should be possible to engineer for long continuous operation The suits are indeed only 50k protection factor but it should be possible to use proven methods used to transfer germ free mice between facilities. Water and food are not completely solved yet, agreed. I think food will be the harder part and I'm happy organizations such as ALLFED are working on this. I am happy to address this in more detail as we have spent quite a bit of time turning many stones. That said, a team of people can still make mistakes so I appreciate that you are helping me looking into this and this is part of the reason I posted - I would love to take a call to if that would be easier to hash this out.
Florin13

There would still be term limits: violent death, revolutions, invasions, and so on.

Florin20

You might want to consider adding additional protection measures (like a respirator), as the effectiveness of some vaccines can be moderate to non-existent. The effectiveness of the flu vaccine in years when its well-matched to the circulating strains is between 40% and 60%, and when the vaccine is not well-matched, it's protection against illness plummets, although it may still offer some protection against complications such as pneumonia. Vaccines don't exist for bad colds and the stomach flu.

Answer by Florin21

Reusable respirators will work well against any fast-spreading pandemic (assuming no ridiculously-long, asymptomatic incubation periods).

Florin32

There seems to have been plenty of papers on airborne aerosol transmission of the flu and experiments with human subjects strongly suggested that the common cold is transmitted via aerosols. So, this makes it even more surprising that the experts got transmission so wrong and took forever to correct their mistake.

Florin10

Yes, but your post seemed to focus on the individual, and that's why I didn't mention future humanity.

For humanity, it did go from no doom to maybe doom which is worse. And perhaps it's worse for the individual in the long run too, but that's a lot more speculative.

In any case, there's still some hope left that our luck will last long enough to avoid doom, even if it will be by the skin of our teeth.

1VojtaKovarik
In that case, that was a misleading phrasing on my part. This is more about humanity than about an individual.
Answer by Florin1-7

Until very recently, it was doom for every individual. Maybe-doom is a vast improvement.

And whatever happens, we'll have the privilege of knowing how human history will have turned out.

1VojtaKovarik
Neither of these suggestions (nor the one in the sub-comment) are useful for what I had in mind. The goal is not have ways of staying positive no matter what --- such as by looking for silver linings irrespectively of whether they are there or not. I expect this would give me incentives against looking at the world clearly. Rather, the hard constraint is to keep my beliefs as close to reality as I can, and the question is how to do that without becoming emotionally detached. Ty for the comment, I will rephrase the original question to clarify.
6Vladimir_Nesov
There is value in future of civilization, which senescence doesn't threaten.
Florin20

The virus most likely leaked from the gain-of-function experiments that they were doing under BSL-2 and not from the BSL-3 or BSL-4 labs.


Third scenario: bat-to-researcher transmission during field work at bat caves or from the bat repository/colony or unaltered bat viruses at the labs in Wuhan.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.html

Florin10

It's a tricky situation. As soon as Hong Kong relaxed its pandemic strategy, excess deaths exploded. Since China followed a similar (and even stricter) pandemic strategy, it seemed inevitable that the same thing would happen (all things being equal) and millions would die with many more millions becoming hospitalized. But all things might not be equal; the circulating strains of covid in China might be less lethal than when Hong Kong relaxed its own pandemic strategy. So, it could go either way.

The real problem here is that China is playing Russian roulett... (read more)

Florin10

I was referring to how docs do brain surgery (e.g., infection prevention procedures, what instruments are used, where incisions are made, etcetera) rather than error rates or second opinions. I highly doubt that many non-experts (even a very motivated brain cancer patient) could successfully determine the appropriateness of specific surgical techniques for brain surgery. And since brain cancer is rare, it's low stakes from a societal or even a personal survival point of view (although, it will become high stakes if you'll live a lot longer than the current lifespan).

Nah, bridges (see other reply) and rockets aren't high stakes enough to be worth worrying about.

2trevor
fall 2021: banking system collapse due to evergrande spring 2022: covid overruns healthcare system, causing mass graves and widespread system failure winter 2022: covid overruns healthcare system, causing mass graves and widespread system failure To be fair, I was a little too harsh on the third time, since many people and most china watchers were very fatigued by then with the ubiquitous plausibly deniable claims of imminent catastrophe in China which didn't come to pass at all the first two times. Then when there actually were videos popping up of piles of bodybags, everyone got confused. The first two times were pretty strong evidence that experts of all kinds were popping up all over the place making way overconfident predictions of China's imminent demise. I don't know whether those predictions persuaded many intelligence agencies or wall street analyst firms, but many people in open source intelligence got bamboozled and started wising up by the third time. I heard that the worst of it was on twitter (alot of respected china watchers apparently tweet), but I've never used or trusted twitter so I'm not the right person to ask about how bad it got there.
Florin32

Bridge building is nowhere near as important as cryonics (or more appropriately, "brain preservation" technology which may not involved cryonics at all), because brain preservation tech has the potential to save hundreds of millions and possibly billions of people from certain death. Even if you disagree, it is still potentially important for personal survival way more than bridge building.

Florin*16

My general heuristic is that the higher the stakes (especially for personal and societal survival), the more you need to check the expert consensus (especially for softer sciences such as medicine, sociology, and economics). Examples where expert opinion should be checked (and is or was probably wrong or misguided): cryonics, certain pandemic mitigation strategies, aging research, geoengineering. Examples where expert opinion probably shouldn't be checked very often by non-experts: brain surgery, bridge building, rocket engineering, archeological excavation.

2ChristianKl
If you go for brain surgery, check the error rates of different doctors that might operate you and taking actions so that you get operated by a doctor with a low error rate seems to be pretty valuable. You probably also should get opinions from experts that aren't brain surgeons about whether the surgery in itself makes sense. Bridges build today are often more expensive, take longer to build and are more ugly than those build 70 years ago. Moses wasn't an architect but was good at building bridges. Elon Musk wasn't an expert at rocket engineering before starting SpaceX. He seems to do pretty well. 
2trevor
China is a big one for this. Large numbers of experts, including many non-pundits, have been widely forecasting China's imminent demise on 3 separate occasions over the last 1.5 years (disclaimer: if you look closely you'll see that many of them were being vague and had way too much plausible deniability to consider it a "forecast", and I only used the word "forecast" above because many were vaguely acting like they were forecasting).
1Garrett Baker
The examples you give seem to be divided more according to richness & rapidity of feedback loops, as well as ease of credit assignment rather than how impactful the work is to society. Cryonics seems about as important as bridge building. If we kept failing at bridge building, many would die.
Florin10

In most situations (with some exceptions like going to the dentist) and for nearly everyone (with some exceptions like people living in a nursing home), the level of risk remaining after taking reasonable efforts to protect oneself seems miniscule.

Florin10

I suspect we mostly agree about this, and the apparent disagreement was caused by a misunderstanding.

So, let me clarify: what I tried to say is that as long as individuals can protect themselves, there is no compelling reason for society to force others to protect individuals or for others to voluntarily protect individuals in those situations in which individuals can protect themselves (I probably should have been more explicit about this to avoid any confusion). For instance, if you need a root canal, you obviously can't protect yourself by wearing a res... (read more)

3jefftk
It seems like you're treating "protect yourself" as binary, when it's not? If I wear a snug N95 I might lower my risk by ~6x. If I swap the N95 for a P100, maybe ~12x. If I also shaved, maybe ~32x. But 32x is still not ∞x, and if the people around me also mask then risk is lower than if only I mask. Which is not to say that everyone should mask all the time. But I think your view of responsibility is too simple: it has to depend at least in part on the level of risk remaining after taking reasonable efforts to protect oneself.
Florin10

You seemed to be talking about mask mandates versus individual responsibility, and that's what I replied about. If you think my reply didn't address your comment, can you rephrase it or point out why you think my comment wasn't responsive?

3lsanders
I didn’t say anything about ever requiring anyone to wear a mask, and yet that’s the only topic that you addressed in your reply. I think there are a lot more options than a simplistic binary between collectively forcing people to wear masks and individually forcing people to accept all responsibility for their own infection outcomes.  Those two positions aren’t even really points on a single dimension, because not all responsibility is enforced responsibility.  Indeed, the OP spends a fair number of words trying to discern their current unenforced responsibilities to others. My comment was, loosely speaking, simply an informal proof by contradiction demonstrating that our society is not in fact currently and effectively aligned with your asserted state of the world.  I started by granting your comment’s argument that making appropriate respirators available for sale in appropriate quantities means that individuals are expected to manage their risk of COVID infection without supporting interventions from the rest of society.  I then pointed out that there’s at least one clear-cut way that society currently falls short of this premise — people are not always free to choose whether they will wear or not wear a mask, and by definition one cannot be the sole responsible party for a decision they cannot decide.  Because something needs to change in order to enact your asserted state of the world, we know that this world state hasn’t been fully implemented yet — both sides of a contradiction can’t be simultaneously true.
Florin10

If there were no reasonable ways (e.g., lack of respirators and/or vaccines) for an individual to protect themselves against covid, society could force everyone to protect individuals. The only reason why mask mandates (and associated NPIs) were ever a thing was that there were no other reasonable ways of protecting against covid. Now, there are other reasonable ways of protecting against covid, and that's why mask mandates aren't a thing anymore.

3lsanders
I don’t see how that’s particularly responsive to anything that I said in my comment?
Florin21

The CDC also says:

Most of these products have an ear loop design. NIOSH-approved N95s typically have head bands. Furthermore, limited assessment of ear loop designs, indicate difficulty achieving a proper fit. While filter efficiency shows how well the filter media performs, users must ensure a proper fit is achieved.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/NonNIOSHresults.html

Florin50

Anything that has earloops (this includes most of the KN95s that I've seen and all KF94s) can't be a respirator, because it's nearly impossible to form a seal between the filter material and the face with the low amount of tension that earloops provide. There will be massive air leakage and the filtration efficiency will be much less than 95% (the minimum standard for most respirators), regardless of the filtration efficiency of the filter material itself.

For kids, options exist that are likely to be lot better than anything with earloops. Some KN95s do ha... (read more)

1jefftk
What you say makes sense, but it isn't how other people use the term. For example, the CDC says: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/types-of-masks.html#respirators
Florin10

The masks in your photo don't look like respirators.

Also, KN95s aren't respirators.

2jefftk
The masks in the photo are KN95s. N95s aren't manufactured in child sizes. I wore an N95, one kid wore a KN95, and the other switched to an N95 partway through the trip after we realized they fit her. What's the idea behind KN95s not being respirators? Would you say an N95 isn't a respirator? A KF94?
Florin0-3

If respirators are widely available (even in the absence of vaccines), the responsibility for protection (especially for voluntary activities) falls on the person that doesn't want to get infected.

If someone wants to protect others, they should wear ventless (or vented-but-filtered) respirators. Non-respirator masks provide little to no protection.

3lsanders
Hmm.  If we’re in a world of completely individualized responsibility for avoiding illness by masking (or not, and dealing with the consequences), then it’s completely unacceptable for society at large to ever force an individual to mask or not (e.g. TSA checkpoints are an obviously relevant sticking point for flying).  Can’t have it both ways.
3jefftk
We wore ventless N95s / KN95s
Florin10

Also, this is a good time to practice using respirators to mitigate against much worse future pandemics which may kill or disable the young at similar rates to the old.

Florin10

An elastomeric respirator or PAPR paired with N100-equivalent filters should provide the best available protection and should significantly reduce risk.

Here's the reasoning:

  • You can't get anything that can filter out more stuff short of using an oxygen tank.
  • There's some empirical evidence suggesting that elastomeric respirators have provided adequate protection for health care workers in a TB ward, whereas disposable N95s might not provide adequate protection in similar circumstances.
  • There's more recent quick-and-dirty evidence for covid and disposable N95s
... (read more)
Answer by Florin20

Even if you're not concerned for your own safety but you live with older people, you still might want to wear an elastomeric respirator or DIY PAPR when going out in order to protect them and encourage them to do the same.

1Florin
Also, this is a good time to practice using respirators to mitigate against much worse future pandemics which may kill or disable the young at similar rates to the old.
Florin10

For me, the bottomline of this masking study is that if you wear a respirator only for a relatively small amount of time in a hospital setting, you might as well go maskless, because you'll just get infected when you're not wearing a respirator (because non-respirator masks don't work well at preventing covid due to poor face seals, inferior filter media, etcetera).

Answer by Florin10

If current covid policies (lockdowns and tracing) are relaxed, millions of Chinese could die. China's CoronaVac vaccine doesn't appear to be nearly as effective as the Western alternatives at two doses. Why a third dose hasn't been more widely distributed yet is unclear. Respirators could also eliminate the need for current policies, but most experts still seem reluctant to recommend them for dumb reasons. There might also be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "China is more effective and tougher than the rest of the world" attitudes floating around.

Florin40

Here's another reason I forgot to mention:

  • Expert anti-valve bias: most elastomerics have exhalation valves

And to be clear, I don't think any of these reasons are enough (although, this somewhat depends on when in the pandemic these reasons were used) to justify not recommending the use of elastomerics.

Florin74

It's mostly too late for intervention #1. Now, everyone knows about these issues. However, it may do some good to replace a lot of old experts with much better ones like Zeynep Tufekci. Tufekci wasn't perfect (never mentioned elastomerics), but she quickly got a lot of things right (even took lab leak seriously) and for the right reasons.

Intervention #2 has more merit, but I fear that the lack of urgency will take over and it will take too long to deploy elastomerics and/or PAPRs (which have certain advantages over elastomerics) at scale. This is starting ... (read more)

Florin43

The one you suggested seems even better.


It might be a better alternative to surgical masks for children, but it's not necessarily better for adults. First, it's not independently certified (by NIOSH, for instance). And second, it lacks an exhaust valve which could make it significantly less comfortable to use for extended periods of time due to increased humidity.

A better alternative for adults is the 3M 6000 series with the optional 3M 604 exhalation valve filter, if you care about filtering the valve's exhaust.

N95 masks

KN95 masks

These aren't elastomeric respirators.

Answer by Florin*101

I can think of many reasons why elastomeric respirators haven't been widely used.

  • Slow expert opinion change: airborne transmission is not significant/only cause of infection
  • Bad assumptions: variants won't become significantly more contagious 
  • Unfamiliarity with elastomeric respirators: no/few studies, seem too uncomfortable, some advantages aren't obvious (e.g., better face seal and comfort)
  • Naive empiricism: China's lockdowns "worked," and other Asian countries (like Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan) controlled covid well without respirators
  • Ho
... (read more)
4Florin
Here's another reason I forgot to mention: * Expert anti-valve bias: most elastomerics have exhalation valves And to be clear, I don't think any of these reasons are enough (although, this somewhat depends on when in the pandemic these reasons were used) to justify not recommending the use of elastomerics.
6Wei Dai
Thanks, lots of good insights in your comment. Reading it, two potential interventions come to my mind: 1. Figure out reasons for expert/institutional inertia (why didn't they change their minds quickly once they saw evidence of airborne transmission, or more contagious variants, or traditional measures not working well enough) and try to change that. 2. Do studies on elastomeric respirators and try to make them part of future editions of epidemiology textbooks, so they become part of the default toolkit that experts reach for.
Florin10

#1 is a double-edged sword; it might help avoid #3 and #4 but might also avoid #2 (immortality). Although x-risk might be lower, billions will still suffer and die (assuming human-created medicine doesn't progress fast enough) in a present and future similar to #3. OTOH, future humanity might run resurrection sims to "rescue" us for our current #3 situation. However, I don't know if these sims are even possible for technical and philosophical reasons. From a self-preservation perspective, whether #1 is good or bad overall is not at all clear to me.

2Lone Pine
From a selfish perspective, sure let's shoot for immortality in utopia. From a selfless perspective, I think it's hard to argue that the earth should be destroyed just so that the people alive today can experience utopia, especially if we think that utopia will come eventually if we can be patient for a generation or two.
Florin1311

This is what happened:

Wrong expert opinion (no airborne transmission) → respirators not recommended → multiple lockdowns until vaccines became widely available → millions of dead people, massive economic and social disruption

This could have easily happened:

Fast expert opinion change (no airborne transmission → airborne transmission) → use first lockdown to manufacture respirators for everyone → use respirators until pandemic burns out or vaccines and therapeutics become widely available → thousands of dead people, only one lockdown, minimal economic and so... (read more)

Florin10

Just wear a respirator and be done with it.

Florin30

Another factor to consider is how much outside air a ventilation system pulls in. This would help further dilute out the aerosols.

2jefftk
The modeling here is assuming a somewhat leaky residential house that gets 2 ACH of natural ventilation, and is modeling the effect of adding purifiers on top of that. If you want to evaluate additional ventilation, either open windows or mechanical ventilation, you can use the model here with the HEPA line. Because HEPA is so close to 100% thorough in removing particles, it is essentially equivalent to outside air from a covid perspective.
Florin30

More worrisome are the 23.1% of people who wanted to take the flight while known to be positive. Thus, almost one in four people who follow a cautious doctor who writes frequently about Covid in the style above think that a known symptomatic Covid case should still go to a terminal and get on a flight. How many more of the general population must think the same way? That it’s fine to go around exposing people when you’re sick?

Well, maybe it’s not as clear cut as all that?

This is certainly a rather strong ‘planes are safe for Covid’ position, where it would

... (read more)
Florin*40

Technically, the best protection is a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) which is a fancy way of referring to a respirator connected to an oxygen tank, but that thing too impractical and overkill for most people.

The amount of protection offered by a positive air pressure respirator (PAPR) depends on what kind of hood is being used and may offer about the same (or more) protection than a reusable elastomeric respirator. Assigned Protection Factor (APF) is a measure of the level of protection offered by types of respirators; PAPRs range from 25 to 1,0... (read more)

Florin10

There are several elastomeric respirators that are ventless or that have add-on vent filters. I've heard that some of these respirators are not that comfortable to wear for long periods of time due to increased humidity, rather than pressure drop or C02 accumulation. I've tried a 3M 6000 series respirator with the 3M 604 exhalation valve filter, and I've noticed no significant increase in breathing difficulty, but I didn't use it long enough to determine if humidity accumulation is a problem.

Ventless disposables can also have humidity issues, so you're probably better off with an elastomeric anyway.

Florin30

You're right; I missed your end-of-post recommendation.

Yes, I'm saying that the newer variants can easily get past cloth and surgical masks but are highly unlikely (but not impossible due to faceseal leaks) to defeat elastomeric respirators equipped with P100 filters. This is due to the fact that P100 filters filter out nearly all particles, so the contagiousness of a virus doesn't matter that much. Here's another way to think about it: during a poison gas attack, what would you choose, a water-soaked handkerchief or a gas mask?

The whole thing (facepiece a... (read more)

Florin30

This means that the reason to require masks at dances is to allow people to attend for which it would otherwise be too risky.

Or urge the people that think it's too risky to attend to wear a respirator, instead of requiring everyone to wear one.

A group wearing surgical masks poses a risk to individuals (wearing the mask of their choice) that is roughly (per microcovid) 1/4 as risky as if the group were fully unmasked.

Microcovid is (still!) using outdated data (2020 and older) that doesn't take into account the current covid variants that are far more contag... (read more)

2jefftk
Yes, that is the policy I recommend at the end of the post. I don't think that affects the argument in the post, which is about relative risk? Unless you're saying that the new variance are better at getting past cloth/surgical masks but not at getting past P100s? The filters claim to be NIOSH approved; are you claiming they're counterfeit, or that the solid portion is uncertified?
Florin-10

Decreased social interaction can be a showstopper but sometimes it isn't; so, I think a case-by-case policy would be more reasonable than a general stay-at-home-no-matter-what recommendation. In the party scenario, the choice is between attending and not attending (I'm assuming that there's no remote party option like VR chat or something). For some parties (like birthday parties), attending might be better even if social interaction is reduced. For others (like indoor dinner parties), it might not be worth attending. In the job scenario, many jobs can't b... (read more)

Florin40

Yeah, Paxlovid might not be as good of a cure as was initially thought due to the issue of relapse. How much of a problem this really is seems unclear.

Florin10

symptomatic people (should) stay home


This is kind of OT, but I'm going to ask anyway: under what conditions do you think that symptomatic people should stay home? If a person's symptoms are debilitating, staying home is the obviously correct choice. But if a person's symptoms aren't debilitating and wears a ventless respirator (and can tolerate it and it doesn't interfere too much in what they're doing), I don't see why they should stay home.

2Elizabeth
In general I think people who are definitely sick should not go to parties or the social part of work (which for almost everyone I know is the part that can't be done from home), even with ventless respirators, even with a negative covid test. There are lots of diseases, spreading them is costly, masks interfere too much at parties and in person interactions at work, which is the only reason for many people to go (if you're at a job that benefits from in-person presence because of equipment or because your home is too disruptive, this doesn't apply. if your job involves interacting with a lot of people, or food, obviously don't go while symptomatic). I think running unpostponable maintenance tasks like grocery shopping (if you can't get delivery) or doctors visits is okay.  The problem I find harder is people who are mildly symptomatic, in ways that could be an illness or allergies, or are on the trail end up symptoms after a disease has probably but not definitely been cleared. "No interaction for five days after a sniffly nose" is life ruining for a lot of people. 
Florin40

Since respirators are widely available and have been for some time now, I don't see any reason for mask mandates; a person wearing a respirator will be protected regardless of how many people around them wear masks. Plus, the masks most people wear (cloth and surgical) aren't effective anyway.

Florin10

Sure, I could have added the caveat "if you don't die of anything else first (and most people won't)," but I wanted to keep the caveats to a minimum. Perhaps a general caveat would be that these statements should be understood to apply to most people alive today. About two thirds of deaths are caused by aging (100k out of 150k per day) and in the developed world, it's 90%.

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