All of Ford's Comments + Replies

Ford60

I tend to agree, but it depends on how something was tested. In "Darwinian Agriculture", I argue that testing by ability to persist is weaker than testing by competition against alternatives. Trees compete against each other, but forests don't. Societies often compete and their moral systems probably affect competitive success, but things are complicated by migration between societies, population growth (moral systems that work for bands of relatives may not work as well for modern nations), technological change (cooking pork), etc.

Ford00

There are so many possible coincidences, it would be surprising if none of them happened.

I observed 2012 transit of Venus, right on schedule.

Don't know an easy way to prove changing earth-moon distance, but changes in speed of earth's rotation can be seen as changes in number of days per year, visible in growth layers in fossil coral. Taking a magnifying glass to the right museum might allow individual verification.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v197/n4871/abs/197948a0.html

Ford10

Great post!

Evolution of antibiotic resistance is indeed fairly easy, but how about evolving something visibly different? Evolution of simple multicellularity from a unicellular ancestor is easier than you might think: http://www.snowflakeyeastlab.com/

If we can solve the earth-orbits-the-sun problem, we don't need to measure the parallax of stars accurately to show that they're really far away, which seems like an important scientific truth.

Ford260

Since most of these would, if successful, result in an imperfect copy of yourself, rather than extending your own consciousness, you could include "have children." If you really want a perfect copy, rather than a genome enriched by a partner, then human cloning is closer to feasible than cryopreservation of adults. Cryopreservation of embryos actually works. I wonder if there would be a market for a service that promises to keep embryos frozen until life human expectancy reaches 110, say, then bring the embryo to life by whatever methods they are using then, sharing some of the trust fund with the foster parents.

6Shmi
If your main requirement for cryonics is identity continuity, then this does not qualify. Children rarely think of themselves as identical to their parents. Maybe if there was a way to transfer parent's memory, feelings and experiences to their children. But this appears to be as hard a problem as uploading.
Ford30

Tax-deferred retirement accounts make sense if you expect your tax rate to be lower in retirement than now. I expect tax rates to increase, so would rather pay the tax now than when I take the money out. In US, Roth IRA allows that.

"Your Money or Your Life" is worth reading. Build up your savings and decrease your spending until earnings on savings equal spending. After that, you don't have to work for money. Worthwhile work still enhances health and happiness, though.

Robert Frank's books on economics make the point that relative income ... (read more)

Ford20

You might like the "simple practice cases" in my recently published book, Darwinian Agriculture. Has natural selection favored solar tracking by leaves because it increases photosynthesis, or because it decreases the photosynthesis of competitors? What sex ratio (in reindeer, say) is favored by natural selection, and what sex ratio maximizes meat production from a given amount of lichen? Why do rhizobial bacteria provide their legume hosts with nitrogen, if healthier plants will indirectly help other rhizobia infecting the same plant -- their most-likely competitors for the next host?

Ford00

It's even a little trickier than that. If overall population is increasing then one offspring this year may lead to greater proportional representation in the gene pool than two offspring next year. What few people recognize is that the opposite can be true if the population is decreasing.

But I think the original post assumed "all else being equal", to allow focus on the main points.

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Ford00

I think that only works if you say "even if that were true, which we don't need to discuss now, I would argue that..." It's much harder to get someone to accept "for the sake of argument" something they strongly disagree with.

For example, I would only accept "morality comes from the Bible" if I had a convincing Bible quote to make my point.

Ford00

You may find this story (a scientist dealing with evidence that conflicts with his religion) interesting.

http://www.exmormonscholarstestify.org/simon-southerton.html

Ford80

In addition to the emotional issues you raise, there's the question of thresholds and scalability. If the puppy program already exists, giving $10 will help more puppies. But, for many scientific research projects, there's no point in even starting with less than $100K in hand. That could be $10 each from 10,000 people. An easy decision, perhaps, for the 9999th person, but who wants to give the first $10?

Elsewhere I've suggested "Social Escrow" as a solution. You pledge a certain amount, contingent on enough other people doing so and perha... (read more)

Ford00

I agree that some "limits" have proved illusory. But do you have an example where a limit based on conservation of matter or energy was surpassed?

I assume solar technology will continue to improve, but it would take several orders of magnitude of improvement for food-from-solar cells to be cost-competitive with cattle grazing low-value land. What does an acre of solar cells cost?

0Shmi
I mentioned some far-fetched stuff before, not that we need that much energy yet. There is plenty of energy around, just waiting to be harvested: solar, geothermal, fusion...
0thomblake
We're not anywhere near that limit yet. The point is that we've approached various things that looked like limits, and they weren't. When we get near being limited by, say, the amount of matter/energy in the universe, then we'll find out whether it's really a limit.
Ford10

Yes, we should start with the low-hanging fruit. For example, nutrients in human waste are a small fraction of what's in animal waste, and the latter should be easier to capture. Even so, much of the manure still gets applied at pollution-causing rates near barns and feedlots, rather than paying the cost of transport to where it is most needed.

But your point about food availability and social stability is more important. Recycling urine seems like a good idea. But a society that needs to recycle urine will be a society where many people are spending most of their income on food and others are going hungry, as was the case for the societies mentioned above.

Ford10

Whatever past trends were, the rate of progress must slow as we approach physical limits. For example, there must be some minimum size for a reliable resistor. So even if we accept the inevitability of certain past trends, extrapolation is risky.

Once we've used most of the oil (or phosphate, for which there's no substitute), past trends driven by culture, technology, or economics won't continue. In agriculture, best-farmer yields haven't increased much since 1980, although averages go up as they buy their neighbors' land. (My recent book on Darwinia... (read more)

0MixedNuts
Presumably as phosphate mines get depleted it'll become profitable to stop pissing away all our phosphorus. Trade in urine was common in medieval Europe; now the yucky bits can be automated and hidden I see no reason it couldn't start again.
4Shmi
Past "physical limits" once considered immutable have often been broken. It was not long ago that 9600bps was considered the limit for phone line data rate. Replacing cattle with vat meat grown in factories powered by solar energy and methane digesters can likely alleviate many potential food shortages and environmental issues. There is no guarantee that there will not be a true limiting factors of progress rate, but it is extremely bold (and misguided) to proclaim that you know in advance what they will be.
Ford10

I agree with your main points, but it's worth noting that corporations and governments don't really have goals -- people who control them have goals. Corporations are supposed to maximize shareholder value, but their actual behavior reflects the personal goals of executives, major shareholders, etc. See, for example, "Dividends and Expropriation" Am Econ Rev 91:54-78. So one key question is how to align the interests of those who actually control corporations and governments with those they are supposed to represent.

1homunq
Yes. And obviously corporations and governments have multiple levels on which they're irrational and don't effectively optimize any goals at all. I was skating over that stuff to make a point, but thanks for pointing it out, and thanks for the good citation.
Ford00

Would the first AI want more AI's around? Wouldn't it compete more with AI's than with humans for resources? Or do you assume that humans, having made an AI smarter than an individual human, would work to network AI's into something even smarter?

Either way, the scaling issue is interesting. I would expect the gain from networking AI's to differ from the gain from networking humans, but I'm not sure which would work better. Differences among individual humans are a potential source of conflict, but can also make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. I wouldn't expect complementarity among a bunch of identical AI's. Generating useful differences would be an interesting problem.

1dlthomas
If there is more to be gained by adding an additional AI then there is to be gained by scaling up the individual AI, then the best strategy for the AI is to create more AI's with the same utility function. Edited to add: Unless, perhaps, the AI had an explicit dislike of creating others, in which case it would be a matter of which effect was stronger.
Ford40

That may be a faster route to AI. But my point was that making an AI that's smarter than the combined intelligence of humans will be much harder (even for an AI that's already fairly smart and well-endowed with resources) than making one that's smarter than an individual human. That moves this risk even further into the future. I'm more worried about the many risks that are more imminent.

4dlthomas
You miss my point. Once we have a GAI, we can have many GAI, and if things scale amazingly in number of humans I see no reason they shouldn't scale similarly in number of AI. From "we have a GAI capable of recursive self improvement, that is significantly better at GAI design than any individual human" to "we have a GAI capable of recursive self improvement, that is significantly better at GAI design than all collective humans" involves the passage of non-zero time, but I don't expect it to be significant compared to the time to get there in the first place without significant other considerations.
Ford20

Does this have implications for the risks associated with AI? Tao is a lot smarter than we are, but he doesn't seem to be plotting to harvest us for our phosphorus, or anything.

This example and others mentioned also suggest that interactions among intelligent agents may be at least as important as intelligence per se. If we can learn to work together more effectively, I think we'll be able to out-think computers for a long time (where "a long time" is defined as long enough for over-population, climate change, nuclear war, etc. to be serious risks).

3dlthomas
If there are indeed gains to be had in coordination of agents that dwarf gains to be had in improvement of individual agents, why couldn't an AI simply simulate multiple agents?
Ford00

If you park near the St. Paul campus, there's a free shuttle bus that stops across the street from Coffman. http://www1.umn.edu/pts/bus/connectors.html

I'm somewhat interested, but have plans already.

0jwhendy
Thanks.
Ford00

A "church-like organization that has local congregations and meets weekly to listen to talks on rationality, the latest scientific discoveries, lectures on philosophy, the state of the world, etc."?

Sounds like a Unitarian fellowship, at least the ones I know. Some may be closer to their Protestant roots, though. Of course, they also have talks on irrationality ("spirituality") and, while atheists and other rationalists are certainly welcome, aggressive promotion of any particular world-view is discouraged.

Ford00

I see how the first part of my post could be read as "we need to motivate girls to go to school", which wasn't my intent. More a matter of motivating tradition-bound parents to see educated girls as a major source of income. But I understand that going to school can be risky in Taliban-dominated areas, which is why the second part of my post was all home-based and therefore hard for the Taliban to detect. Even so, I agree that any obvious link to the US government could be a problem.

Ford30

We do use mercenaries: http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/10/mercenaries-in-iraq-to-take-over-soldiers-jobs.html

But there might be cheaper options. If we paid Afghan girls $10/day to go to school, would the Taliban collapse?

We could be a little more subtle. Start by offering jobs to do something the Taliban wouldn't consider threatening -- Mechanical Turk work-from-home stuff not requiring literacy, via some kind of specialized radio or satellite link with no access to porn or feminism or anything the Taliban would object to. Every family wants one of th... (read more)

3CronoDAS
There's no shortage of Afghan girls who already want to go to school or of parents who want to send them. The problem is that there are people who mutilate girls who attend these schools. In the short run, at least, sticks are often more effective at getting the acquiescence of the population than carrots; when collaborators keep getting killed, it's hard to get willing collaborators no matter how much money you offer. See also.
Ford50

Yes, literal feuds. Cycles of tit-for-tat revenge that involve violence or are likely to escalate to violence unless the injured party (or their surviving relatives) perceive that "justice has been done" through state-imposed punishment. I lived in West Virginia, which such feuds were common before effective law enforcement was substituted for private revenge.

This is clearly not an argument for punishment in the case of victimless "crimes" or offenses unlikely to provoke escalating retaliation.

Ford00

I agree that we should imprison as few people as possible.

My point was that having murders punished by the state rather than by the victim's families leads to fewer people in prison. If we don't jail Bob for killing Ken, then Ken's brother kills Bob, so then Bob's brother kills Ken's son, and so on. At least, that's what tends to happen in societies without effective law enforcement.

0DanielLC
Literal feuds? Murder isn't exactly the most common crime.
Ford10

Yes, preempt is better.

Ford80

One reason we punish criminals is to deter private revenge, which tends to escalate into long-lasting feuds. This function isn't incompatible with rehabilitation in prison, though, teaching people life skills that will keep them out of trouble after release.

2DanielLC
I got the impression that such feuds were common in prison. As such, it would increase them. Also, while drug-dealing does tend to result in long-lasting feuds, it wouldn't happen if it wasn't black-market. As such, the primary reason people go to prison (in America) wouldn't help with this.
2FAWS
I think you mean "preempt"? Deterrence would be against all future crimes, not revenge in particular, wouldn't it?
Ford00

I'd rather have a motivated group that's poorly organized than a well-organized bunch of goof-offs. Given motivation, though, I wonder whether some forms of organization (especially voluntary organization) work better than others.

I'm particularly interested in situations where there's a significant opportunity cost to collaboration, that is, where any time participants spend on collaborative project X comes at the expense of time they would otherwise spend on worthwhile project Y. How can we get things done together while wasting as little of each others' time as possible?

1taryneast
To address a previous point you made: You can do this by breaking the main problem into smaller chunks - and assigning them to smaller teams within the structure. If the chunks are still too big - you just break them down further and so on. This is how really big software projects work (eg Microsoft Windows) where you have hundreds of programmers.
2taryneast
Yes - definitely agree that there are better and worse forms of organisation for well-motivated teams. I think the exact details probably differ depending on the personalities of the team (and the nature of the project) - but I'm sure there are generalisable skills too. As to opportunity costs, I'm not sure about collaboration in general, but too many meetings wastes everybody's time. Time that could be spent Getting Stuff Done. There's also the principle found in the Mythical Man Month about team-size... after a certain team-size - if you keep building the team (and increasing collaboration) eventually a larger and larger percentage of the time is spent on just keeping up the intra-group communication (ie the activities of collaboration themselves). The opportunity cost there is that you could split into two teams, working on separate things and get a higher throughput. I also recall reading something (probably by Paul Graham or Joel Spolsky) about the opportunity costs involved in joining a team of people that aren't as motivated or skilled as yourself... the conclusion of the article was that there's an opportunity cost because you're averaging your skill together and coming out with a lower number - and you could be working with people better and thus raising the average (and therefore the payoff from working together).
Ford10

If I wanted to be revived, I'd hide a bunch of gold and tattoo a note to that effect on my chest before being frozen.

Ford00

Randomly grouping voters into districts might be worth considering. With geographic districts, incompetent and corrupt incumbents get reelected by bringing their district more than its share of national resources or by playing to regional prejudices (religion, etc.). If those options were off the table, character and competence might win more often.

Ford00

Post and comments seem useful for students and teachers, but I was hoping for hints or links for teams of motivated adults. The teams I've been on mostly produce scientific publications (original research or reviews). Some observations: 1) work doesn't need to be divided equally, so long as each team member makes an essential contribution, but major contributors need to get more credit; 2) "you do most of the work and we share credit" can work if the one doing most of the work is essentially an apprentice (e.g., a grad student or postdoc) -- it... (read more)

2taryneast
These days, I only work for small companies, not huge corporate behemoths. The majority of why this is so is because IME, huge corporate behemoths have a much higher proportion of unmotivated people working in what they consider "cushy jobs" (ie they're "wally" from Dilbert - trying to get out of doing any actual work), as well as far more political bullshit. Small companies don't have so much time or money to waste on that. I won't say that they're entirely without their own problems... but the ratio is likely to be better. After all - it's harder to hide lack of motivation in a small team. and a small company simply can't afford to keep on somebody that won't pull their own weight. So - if you want a heuristic for finding teams of adults that work well together - look at smaller, rather than larger companies. My second heuristic is to find companies that are actually on the cutting edge of technology. Note: not people that say they're on the cutting edge... high levels of corporate BS bespeak of teams that are likely to be more busy politically wrangling than actually Getting Stuff Done. To find companies that are actually on the cutting edge... you need to know what it actually looks like when you see it - which means you need to learn an industry at least well enough to be able to spot the difference between people actually doing interesting stuff, from people just saying they are. IME, people that are working on something really cool - and actually getting stuff done... are far more likely to be a motivated, interesting team to work with. So: small companies, not large companies, companies that are Getting Stuff Done, rather than talking about it... That's where you'll find interesting teams of motivated adults to work with.
Ford00

If we assume that the time wasted writing multiple grants outweighs the benefits of stiffer competition (stimulating creativity or harder work?), there are several ways success rates could be increased: more total funding, smaller grants, limiting grants/researcher, or fewer researchers. One reason we have so many researchers is that overhead payments to universities exceed the marginal cost of doing more research. So they keep hiring more researchers, independent of teaching needs.

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/denis036/thisweekinevolution/2011/03/the_problem_of_pronatalist_pro.html

Ford100

As an evolutionary biologist with an interest in practical applications to agriculture and to human longevity, I think your emphasis on the slow pace of evolution is misplaced. It took most of life's 3.85 billion year history to evolve multicellularity, but that slowness seems to mainly reflect lack of selection for multicellularity over most of that period. With strong selection, primitive multicellularity can evolve quickly under lab conditions ( Boraas,M.E. 1998 "Phagotrophy by a flagellate selects for colonial prey: A possible origin of multice... (read more)