All of garethrees's Comments + Replies

Deaths per cyclist per kilometre of road is a crazy unit of measurement. I mean, sometimes you have to report the statistic you've got rather than the statistic you'd like, but I don't see what possible practical significance this has.

The statistic we'd like to know is deaths per kilometre cycled. The average person in the UK cycles about 60 km a year (source: Department for Transport) and the population of London is about 8.5 million (source: Wikipedia), so the 19 deaths in 2006 correspond to about 3.5 deaths per 100 million kilometres cycled.

This is slig... (read more)

In Japanese, these aren't noun suffixes but number suffixes, known as counters or classifiers. You don't say, "*ninjin ga san" [three carrots], but rather, "ninjin ga sanbon" [three-cylinder-shaped carrots].

Mass nouns behave in a similar way in English: you don't say "*three breads", but rather, "three loaves of bread". Also, "head of cattle", "slices of toast", "sheets of paper", "items of cutlery", etc.

In Navajo, the classifiers are verb stems.

This proposal seems like it would run aground on the actual complexity and changeability of river systems. The River Great Ouse, to take an example that's local to me, runs in four channels between Earith and its outflow at Kings Lynn (the Old and New Bedford Rivers, the Great Ouse proper, and an unnamed flood relief channel). But this is a relatively recent configuration: the Great Ouse formerly turned west at Littleport (rather than north as at present), reaching a confluence with the River Nene before flowing into the Wash at Wisbech, while the Little Ouse flowed north to Kings Lynn.

Gung cnegvphyne nzovtenz, fher. (Vg'f nyfb qvsvphyg gb svaq zhygvcyr zrffntrf jvgu gur fnzr unfu.) Ohg Qreera Oebja hfrq guvf nzovtenz va uvf 2007 frevrf "Gevpx be Gerng" jvgu ng yrnfg gur nccrnenapr bs fhpprff (gubhtu nf nyjnlf jvgu Oebja, vg'f cbffvoyr ur jnf sbbyvat hf engure guna gur cnegvpvcnag).

Creuncf gur fyvc bs cncre ybbxrq fbzrguvat yvxr guvf. (Qrfvtavat na nzovtenz jbhyq or nanybtbhf gb svaqvat zhygvcyr zrffntrf jvgu gur fnzr unfu.)

0gwern
Gung'q arire jbex sbe n frpbaq ba n uhzna. V qba'g guvax V'ir frra nal nzovtenzf juvpu ner fb fzbbgu gung lbh pbhyq frr rvgure bar onfrq ba n cevzr jvgubhg abgvat gung gur jevgvat vf irel bqq. V pna'g rira ernq nal bs gung nzovtenz rkprcg sbe 'fcevat', fgenvavat uneq.

I once attended an apologetical talk given by the Christian Union at my college. (They were offering free food.) The invited speaker presented a version of C. S. Lewis's trilemma: liar, lunatic or lord? (a kind of proof by alliteration).

I spoke to the speaker afterwards and took him to task for presenting such a silly argument, which I said was hardly likely to convince anyone not already a Christian. He freely admitted the logical flaws in the trilemma argument, and said that his own personal justifications for belief were quite different—he appealed, if ... (read more)

0ArisKatsaris
Hey, are you the same Gareth Rees I remember from the IF Community, years back? If so, cheers. Nice seeing your name again.

I have never been able to get the Socratic Method to work on the Internet. In theory the Socratic Method is effective because the student has to reason their own way to the conclusion, and so they end up knowing it more deeply and thoroughly than if they were just told the conclusion by the teacher. But somehow it never works for me.

I think part of the problem is that the Socratic Method relies on the participants agreeing to take on the appropriate roles in the discussion. In particular, the "student" has to agree to play the role of the student... (read more)

I think gwern is teasing us: there is no such quotation in Sluga's Heidegger's Crisis, or at least I cannot find it in the Google Books version. Perhaps gwern has taken the Wittgenstein/Malcolm story and swapped Britain for Germany to make a point about the universal applicability of the philosopher's rebuke.

But for what it's worth:

  • The date in the Heidegger version of the story is very suspicious: in 1939 Churchill was First Lord of the Admiralty; he did not become Prime Minister until May 1940 and it is only with hindsight that we see his significance (

... (read more)
1ChristianKl
The whole story is also much more fitting to the "character" that Wittgenstein is supposed to have as opposed to the one of Heidegger.

Yeah, this seems like one of the occasional tests/experiments Gwern does.

"Biggest fan" here is hyperbole for "a very big fan".

You say that my explanations "aren't valid" because I "have to assume" various facts. Why do I have to make these assumptions? Your argument is that these tricks must be fair puzzles. But Derren is not in the business of making fair puzzles, he is in the business of entertaining television audiences. He is under no obligation to play fair, and he is quite willing to use your belief that he plays fair in order to fool you.

My explanations for tricks two and three don't just explain the effect, but also a number of details of the presentat... (read more)

1ThisSpaceAvailable
I never said that you have to assume various facts. I said that you have to assume various facts ''for there to be a puzzle''. Nor did I say that these tricks must be fair puzzles. I said that ''if'' it is a fair puzzle, ''then'' there are certain assumptions that must be true. This is quite likely not a fair puzzle. If it's not a fair puzzle, then trying to "figure it out" strikes me as not being a worthwhile endeavor. And if it's not a fair puzzle, then pretty much any explanation is unfalsifiable. If we proceed with the assumption that he's trying to fool us, then we ''shouldn't expect'' it to make sense. We should ''expect'' there to be mysterious and arbitrary details, and any such details can be presented as support for the explanation, while any details that aren't mysterious or arbitrary under the proposed explanation can be presented as confirmation as well. For instance, him having the woman touch the face of the man is, under your explanation, arbitrary, and supports your explanation because it shows that he's introducing elements that have no inherent purpose as misdirection. The woman being shorter than the man, on the other hand, you claim is evidence for your explanation, because it serves a direct purpose in his plan. If Derren is operating through camera cuts in video three, there is little need for the clown costume. We need four things to dismiss this hypothesis: 1. Derren makes a specific claim. 2. We have a clear shot of his mouth, and can lip-read him as saying that. 3. The woman clearly and explicitly states that the claim is true. 4. We have a clear shot of her mouth. Not only do we need these four things, we need them ''all in the same shot''. It's hardly difficult to arrange the editing such that there is no shot with all four, even without a clown costume. And that's about a satisfying explanation as if I had seen a magician on TV get in one box, then instantly appear in a box across the room, and the explanation is that the magici

For the record, I thought of "spade" and then "orange" (perhaps because of an association of spades with the merchant B&Q, whose logo and branded materials are orange, though of course this is post-hoc rationalization on my part).

The reason why I think concentrating on "suggestion" is often an indication that you've missed something, is that suggestion is not reliable enough for magicians to use it as the sole mechanism for an effect, especially in settings like live television where the stakes are high. Magicians prefer t... (read more)

It's an example of Derren Brown's brilliant use of misdirection. Here you're misdirected as to the whole nature of the trick, and if you start your analysis by asking yourself, "how does he manage to read the woman's mind?" then you've already swallowed the false assumption. You have to take a step back and start from the question, "how does he manage to convince me, the viewer, that he read the woman's mind?"

I'll ROT-13 my own answers to the questions, but I strongly recommend that you do your best to figure out your own answers to them before decrypting mine. Trying to figure out plausible mechanisms for magic tricks is a way of calibrating your rational thinking skills, in the presence of an adversary (the magician) who is trying to use all your perceptual biases and cognitive shortcuts against you. If you find yourself seriously considering hypotheses like micromuscle reading or subliminal suggestion, then that's probably because the magician has managed to... (read more)

2ThisSpaceAvailable
I got an "uploader has not made this video available in your country" message for the first video, but your "explanations" for the other two aren't valid. The first is just a fancy way of accusing Derren Brown of using a stooge, which is given as not being a valid explanation, and once we entertain this possibility, the question becomes vacuous. It's like if someone asks you "Here's a chess position, how do you force checkmate?" and your answer is "I'd point a gun at my opponent's head and order him to move his queen out of the way". There's lateral thinking, and then there's just refusing to accept basic assumptions that are necessary for there to be a puzzle in the first place. Your explanation for the third video is similarly invalid. You have to assume that the video is an accurate account of the encounter, just as you have to assume, when watching a play, that any character that is declared dead by the another character is, in fact, dead. A puzzle where the "solution" consists of rejecting the assumption that the person telling the puzzle to you is accurately presenting the nature of the puzzle is not a puzzle. "I have two coins in my pocket. The value of them add up to 35 cents, and neither of them is a quarter. What are they?" "I don't know." "A dime and a quarter." "But you said neither of them is a quarter." "Yeah, I lied."
5Kaj_Sotala
The subliminal suggestion part isn't that implausible a priori, though. Suppose I first tell you to think of some tool, after which I tell you to think of some color. Znal crbcyr jvyy svefg nafjre "unzzre", orpnhfr gung'f n cebgbglcvpny gbby, naq gura nafjre "erq", orpnhfr obgu jbeqf ner nffbpvngrq jvgu pbzzhavfz naq gur zragvba bs n unzzre cevzrf nffbpvngrq pbaprcgf. While I'm not sure of how well that will work here, once back in junior high school I had happened to read that and a list of other priming questions from somewhere, and tried them out on my classmates. I didn't always get the expected answer, but I did get it more often than not. My favorite was one that only works in Finnish - asking people to say "kuusi" for several times in a row, which is a word that means either the number six, or a spruce tree. Then I would ask them to name a vegetable, and often they would say "carrot" - which happens to have a similar shape as the popular way of drawing cartoon spruce trees.
2shev
I watched #3 again and I'm pretty convinced you're right. It is strange, seeing it totally differently once I have a theory to match.

I think it's worth taking a step back from the details of any one of Derren Brown's effects, and looking at the nature of stage magic. A stage magician employs a set of techniques called misdirection to mislead the audience as to how a trick is performed, to direct their attention to irrelevant aspects of the performance, or to encourage them to misinterpret relevant aspects.

An important technique in misdirection is to provide the audience with a false explanation for how the trick is done. A magician who says that a trick is done by magic encourages you w... (read more)

9garethrees
I'll ROT-13 my own answers to the questions, but I strongly recommend that you do your best to figure out your own answers to them before decrypting mine. Trying to figure out plausible mechanisms for magic tricks is a way of calibrating your rational thinking skills, in the presence of an adversary (the magician) who is trying to use all your perceptual biases and cognitive shortcuts against you. If you find yourself seriously considering hypotheses like micromuscle reading or subliminal suggestion, then that's probably because the magician has managed to slip a false assumption past your defences! Svefg, Qnivq Sebfg. Guvf, V jvyy fnl hc sebag, vf gur bar V'z yrnfg pbasvqrag nobhg. Ohg zl gurbel vf guvf. N pung fubj yvxr Sebfg'f glcvpnyyl unf fbzr xvaq bs cercnengvba orsberunaq: abg n fpevcgrq erurnefny, ohg n pbairefngvba va juvpu gur ubfg naq gur thrfg jbex bhg jung xvaqf bs fhowrpgf gurl ner tbvat gb pbire. Va gur erurnefny, Qreera qbrf fbzr zntvp gevpxf naq va gur pbhefr bs guvf ur fbzrubj sbeprf gur jbeq Zvyna ba Sebfg va fbzr jnl gung Sebfg guvaxf vf enaqbz. (Ubj? N obbx grfg? V qba'g xabj.) Qreera fgnegf gb thrff jung vg vf, ohg gura fnlf, "Ab, V'yy gel naq thrff gung yngre ba gur fubj". Gura, qhevat gur yvir erpbeqvat, ur tbrf guebhtu n zvaq-ernqvat nggrzcg gung tbrf onqyl (gur pvtne) ohg qhevat gur pbhefr bs guvf ur qebcf uvagf nobhg n cynpr, juvpu Sebfg vavgvnyyl qravrf: "Vg'f n cynpr bs fbzr fbeg" "Ab" "BX, pna lbh tb onpx va lbhe zvaq. V guvax gurer jnf n cynpr." "Ab, nf fbba nf lbh nfxrq zr V'ir bayl gubhtug bs guvf bar guvat." Qreera trgf vg jebat, ohg gura ur fnlf, "Gurer jnf n cynpr. V guvax gurer jnf n cynpr, gubhtu, gung jrag guebhtu lbhe urnq. Whfg tb onpx va lbhe zvaq naq whfg sbphf ba n cynpr sbe n frpbaq." Abj Sebfg nterrf gung gurer jnf n cynpr. Jul vf gung? Vg'f orpnhfr abj gung gur gevpx vf bire naq Qreera snvyrq, Sebfg ernyvmrf gung ur'f orvat cebzcgrq gb guvax onpx gb gur cynpr gung jnf pubfra rneyvre, naq abj Qreera thrffrf vg. Sebfg vf

This is an excellent question. grouchymusicologist above has it right that "music enjoyment is a remarkably multifaceted phenomenon", and I would like to expand on this.

Michael J. Parsons, in How we understand art: a cognitive developmental account of aesthetic experience, identifies a sequence of developmental stages in the appreciation of visual art. This is of necessity a very rough and un-nuanced summary since I don't have the book to hand, but I think this sequence is: first, colour ("this painting is red"); second, subject matter ... (read more)

The paper

provides evidence that periods of glaciation begin when northern hemisphere insolation (which varies due to changes in the precession, obliquity and eccentricity of Earth's orbit) falls below a "trigger" level that depends on the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Archer & Ganopolski suggest that we're currently approaching a solar minimum, but we've already release... (read more)

If I can't get this study published in the traditional way, I'll "publish" it myself on the internet.

There's always the Journal of Articles in Support of the Null Hypothesis.

Blues understand Green arguments but aren't persuaded by them (presumably because they have counterarguments), whereas Greens don't understand Blue arguments and this makes it unlikely they have counterarguments.

This is a restatement of the hypothesis under discussion. (That inability to imitate convincingly is caused by lack of understanding.)

your third objection amounts to "sometimes the people defending the incorrect position are homogeneous, this gives them a large advantage in the test".

You've failed to imitate my position. My third o... (read more)

-2Eugine_Nier
I'm not sure where you're drawing the line between logical and rhetorical structure. The most obvious rhetorical structure is that he acts like he alieves his position in addition to believing it.

I find it very plausible that Christians are better able to pretend to be atheists than vice versa. But what follows from that?

Caplan claimed in his original piece:

the ability to pass ideological Turing tests—to state opposing views as clearly and persuasively as their proponents—is a genuine symptom of objectivity and wisdom.

Caplan gives little in the way of argument in support of this claim, and I'm not at all sure that it's true. "Genuine symptom of objectivity and wisdom", really? My objections follow.

First, there's only one way to be rig... (read more)

-3wedrifid
On the other hand, any Christian who pretends to be an atheist better than an atheist isn't a very good Christian. By doing so they are violating the teachings of their God.
2Salivanth
"If you are Christian, then you probably know the Bible in detail, you are probably familiar with a range of theological and apologetic texts" I'll admit I don't have any statistics here, but from what I've seen heard, both first-hand and second-hand, Christians tend to be quite poor on average at knowing the Bible. I've never heard any evidence suggesting the average Christian has a detailed knowledge of the contents of the Bible, even if the kind of Christians who like to argue Christianity are more informed than most. (Similarly, argumentative atheists tend to have a better knowledge of the atheistic arguments than the average atheist.)
0orthonormal
I instantly did a double-take at this statement. It depends a lot on context. I'd find it likely that the Christian readers of Patheos blogs are better at the Ideological Turing Test than the atheist readers of Patheos blogs. However, I'd find it incredibly unlikely if the samples were drawn from, say, all American Christians and all American atheists. (The typical Christian in America has listened to fewer atheists about atheism than vice versa.)
0Eugine_Nier
That Blues understand Green arguments but aren't persuaded by them (presumably because they have counterarguments), whereas Greens don't understand Blue arguments and this makes it unlikely they have counterarguments. Now let's look at your three objections, near as I can tell your first objection amounts to "sometimes the people defending the incorrect position are heterogeneous, this gives them a large advantage in the test", and your third objection amounts to "sometimes the people defending the incorrect position are homogeneous, this gives them a large advantage in the test". Now let's look at you second objection: much as it may seem that way your opponents are not evil mutants whose position has no logic to it whatsoever, most position actually held by humans, especially intelligent humans have a certain logic to them. (And if you're opponents' position really has no logic to it beyond saying anything plausible sounding that backs up their conclusion, that's very easy to imitate). Thus, the two positions have different logic to them and it will be hard for a person only familiar with one of those logics to imitate the other. On the other hand, if someone is familiar with the logic of both positions A and B, the fact that he nevertheless holds position A is evidence that A is in fact correct.

"Post-utopian" is a real term, and even in the absence of examples of its use, it is straightforward to deduce its (likely) meaning, since "post-" means "subsequent to, in reaction to" and "utopian" means "believing in or aiming at the perfecting of polity or social conditions". So post-utopian texts are those which react against utopianism, express skepticism at the perfectibility of society, and so on. This doesn't seem like a particularly difficult idea and it is not difficult to identify particular text... (read more)

Front page: missing author

The front page for Facing the Singularity needs at the very least to name the author. When you write, "my attempt to answer these questions", a reader may well ask, "who are you? and why should I pay attention to your answer?" There ought to be a brief summary here: we shouldn't have to scroll down to the bottom and click on "About" to discover who you are.

The tables of contents for Science magazine are online. Looking through these might jog your memory. But there are quite a lot of issues.

Recently in another topic I mentioned the "two bishops against two knights" chess endgame problem. I claimed it was investigated over two decades ago by a computer program and established that it is a win situation for the two bishops' side. Then I was unable to Google a solid reference for my claim.

I believe that subject to the ambiguity in what is meant by "a win situation for the two bishops", your recollection is correct.

The 6-piece pawnless endgames were were first analyzed systematically by Lewis Stiller starting in the late 19... (read more)

3Thomas
Inside Google Scholar it is easy to find: Baryon number conservation law ended
4Thomas
What can I say - that this is the answer one can only wish. Bravo! The information about this KBBKNN situation I've read around 1987, must have been a little deformed by that magazine. I've took them too seriously. Now, I am going to investigate another piece I recall and I couldn't find it online until now. This time from the Science magazine sometimes during 1980's. The title I remember was "Never Out of Sorts".

Spelling Latin with u has always been there (but as a tiny minority of texts). Here are some occurrences of omnia uincit amor over the years: 1603, 1743, 1894, 1974.

If you compare the frequencies of vincit and uincit on Google Ngram viewer, you'll see that the u spelling has always been present at a low frequency. There doesn't seem to be any noticeable recent trend (other than the general decline of Latin as a proportion of printed material). I tried a few other Latin words and got similar results.

The earliest reference I can track down is from 1952. In Roger Sessions: a biography (2008), Andrea Olmstead writes:

[In 1952] Sessions published "Some notes on Schoenberg and the 'method of composing with twelve tones'." At the head of the article he quoted from one of Schoenberg's letters to him: "A Chinese philosopher speaks, of course, Chinese; the question is, what does he say?" Sessions [had performed] the role of a Chinese philosopher in Cleveland.

(The work that Sessions had performed this role in appears to have been Man who ... (read more)

It's hardly fair to call EY Egan's 'biggest fan'

I based this description on Yudkowsky's comments here, where he says of Permutation City, "This is simply the best science-fiction book ever written [...] It is, in short, my all-time favorite."

5rkyeun
That makes Egan the thing Yudkowsky is the biggest fan of. It does not make Yudkowsky to be Egan's biggest fan.

I don't see how those novels could have been an inspiration?

Yudkowsky describes Egan's work as an important influence in Creating Friendly AI, where he comments that a quote from Diaspora "affected my entire train of thought about the Singularity".

Though it's worth noting that this was a "That shouldn't happen" quote and not a "What a good idea" quote.

The Wikipedia page explains how a frequentist can get the answer ⅓, but it doesn't explain how a Bayesian can get that answer. That's what's missing.

I'm still hoping for a reference for "the Bayesian rules of forgetting". If these rules exist, then we can check to see if they give the answer ⅓ in the Sleeping Beauty case. That would go a long way to convincing a naive Bayesian.

0timtyler
I do not think it is missing - since a Bayesian can ask themselves at what odds they would accept a bet on the coin coming up heads - just as easily as any other agent can. What is missing is an account involving Bayesian forgetting. It's missing because that is a way of solving the problem which makes little practical sense. Now, it might be an interesting exercise to explore the rules of Bayesian forgetting - but I don't think it can be claimed that that is needed to solve this problem - even from a Bayesian perspective. Bayesians have more tools available to them than just Bayes' Law. FWIW, Bayesian forgetting looks somewhat managable. Bayes' Law is a reversible calculation - so you can just un-apply it.

I think this kind of proposal isn't going to work unless people understand why they disagree.

You're not obliged to give a lecture. A reference would be ideal.

Appealing to "forgetting" only gives an argument that our reasoning methods are incomplete: it doesn't argue against ½ or in favour of ⅓. We need to see the rules and the calculation to decide if it settles the matter.

0timtyler
To reiterate, people do not need to know or understand the Bayesian rules of forgetting in order to successfully solve this problem. Nobody used this approach to solving the problem - as far as I am aware - but the vast majority obtained the correct answer nontheless. Correct reasoning is given on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Beauty_problem - and in dozens of prior comments on the subject.

If I understand rightly, you're happy with my values for p(H), p(D) and p(D|H), but you're not happy with the result. So you're claiming that a Bayesian reasoner has to abandon Bayes' Law in order to get the right answer to this problem. (Which is what I pointed out above.)

Is your argument the same as the one made by Bradley Monton? In his paper Sleeping Beauty and the forgetful Bayesian, Monton argues convincingly that a Bayesian reasoner needs to update upon forgetting, but he doesn't give a rule explaining how to do it.

Naively, I can imagine doing this ... (read more)

0timtyler
Well, there is not anything wrong with Bayes' Law. It doesn't model forgetting - but it doesn't pretend to. I would not say you have to "abandon" Bayes' Law to solve the problem. It is just that the problem includes a process (namely: forgetting) that Bayes' Law makes no attempt to model in the first place. Bayes' Law works just fine for elements of the problem involving updating based on evidence. What you have to do is not abuse Bayes' Law - by using it in circumstances for which it was never intended and is not appropriate. Your opinion that I am under some kind of obligation to provide a lecture on the little-known topic of Bayesian forgetting has been duly noted. Fortunately, people don't need to know or understand the Bayesian rules of forgetting in order to successfully solve this problem - but it would certainly help if they avoid applying the Bayes update rule while completely ignoring the whole issue of the effect of drug-induced amnesia - much as Bradley Monton explains.

D is the observation that Sleeping Beauty makes in the problem, something like "I'm awake, it's during the experiment, I don't know what day it is, and I can't remember being awoken before". p(D) is the prior probability of making this observation during the experiment. p(D|H) is the likelihood of making this observation if the coin lands heads.

As I said, if your intuition tells you that p(H|D) = ⅓, then something else has to change to make the calculation work. Either you abandon or modify Bayes' Law (in this case, at least) or you need to disagree with me on one or more of p(D), p(D|H), and p(H).

1timtyler
As I said, be careful about using Bayes' theorem in the case where the agent's mind is being meddled with by amnesia-inducing drugs. If Beauty had not had her mind addled by drugs, your formula would work - and p(H|D) would be equal to 1/2 on her first awakening. As it is, Beauty has lost some information that pertains to the answer she gives to the problem - namely the knowledge of whether she has been woken up before already - or not. Her uncertainty about this matter is the cause of the problem with plugging numbers into Bayes' theorem. The theorem models her update on new information - but does not model the drug-induced deletion from her mind of information that pertains to the answer she gives to the problem. If she knew it was Monday, p(H|D) would be about 1/2. If she knew it was Tuesday, p(H|D) would be about 0. Since she is uncertain, the value lies between these extremes. Is over-reliance on Bayes' theorem - without considering its failure to model the problem's drug-induced amnesia - a cause of people thinking the answer to the problem is 1/2, I wonder?

Bayes' Law says, p(H|D) = p(D|H) p(H) / p(D) where H is the hypothesis of interest and D is the observed data. In the Sleeping Beauty problem H is "the coin lands heads" and D is "Sleeping Beauty is awake". p(H) = ½, and p(D|H) = p(D) = 1. So if your intuition tells you that p(H|D) = ⅓, then you have to either abandon Bayes' Law, or else change one or more of the values of p(D|H), p(H) and p(D) in order to make it come out.

(We can come back to the intuition about bets once we've dealt with this point.)

0timtyler
I don't see how that analysis is useful. Beauty is awake at the start and the end of the experiment, and she updates accordingly, depending on whether she believes she is "inside" the experiment or not. So, having D mean: "Sleeping Beauty is awake" does not seem very useful. Beauty's "data" should also include her knowledge of the experimental setup, her knowledge of the identity of the subject, and whether she is facing an interviewer with amnesia. These things vary over time - and so they can't usefully be treated as a single probability. You should be careful if plugging values into Bayes' theorem in an attempt to solve this problem. It contains an amnesia-inducing drug. When Beauty updates, you had better make sure to un-update her again afterwards in the correct manner.
2Morendil
Hold on - p(D|H) and P(D) are not point values but probability distributions, since there is yet another variable, namely what day it is.

That's interesting. But then you have to either abandon Bayes' Law, or else adopt very bizarre interpretations of p(D|H), p(H) and p(D) in order to make it come out. Both of these seem like very heavy prices to pay. I'd rather admit that my intuition was wrong.

Is the motivating intuition beyond your comment, the idea that your subjective probability should be the same as the odds you'd take in a (fair) bet?

0timtyler
Subjective probabilities are traditionally analyzed in terms of betting behavior. Bets that are used for elucidating subjective probabilities are constructed using "scoring rules". It's a standard way of revealing such probabilities. I am not sure what you mean by "abandoning Bayes' Law", or using "bizarre" interpretations of probability. In this case, the relevant data includes the design of the experiment - and that is not trivial to update on, so there is scope for making mistakes. Before questioning the integrity of your tools, is it possible that a mistake was made during their application?

I did check both threads, and as far as I could see, nobody was making exactly this point. I'm sorry that I missed the comment in question: the threads were very long. If you can point me at it, and the rebuttal, then I can try to address it (or admit I'm wrong).

(Even if I'm wrong about why the problem is hard, I think the rest of my comment stands: it's a problem that's been selected for discussion because it's hard, so it might be productive to try to understand why it's hard. Just as it helps to understand our biases, it helps to understand our errors.)

0PhilGoetz
Okay - WRT "credence", you have a good point; it's a vague word. But, p(H|D) and "expected proportion of observations consistent with data D in which the hypothesis H was confirmed" give the same results. (Frequentists are allowed to use the p(H|D) notation, too.) There isn't a difference between Bayesians and other reasoners; there's a difference between what evidence one believes is being conditioned on. You're correct that your actual claim isn't addressed by comments in those posts; but your claim depends on beliefs that are argued for and against in the comments. That's the correct interpretation, where "correct" means "what the original author intended". Under the alternate interpretation, you will find yourself wondering why the author wrote all this stuff about Sleeping Beauty falling asleep, and forgetting what happened before, because it has no effect on the answer. This proves that the author didn't have that interpretation. The clearest explanation yet posted is actually included in the beginning of the Sleeping Beauty post.
0PhilGoetz
Agreed.
1timtyler
Bayesians should not answer ½. Nobody should answer ½: that's the wrong answer. If your interpretation of the word "credence" leads you to answer ½, you are fighting with the rest of the community over the definition of the concept of subjective probability.

The Sleeping Beauty problem and the other "paradoxes" of probability are problems that have been selected (in the evolutionary sense) because they contain psychological features that cause people's reasoning to go wrong. People come up with puzzles and problems all the time, but the ones that gain prominence and endure are the ones that are discussed over and over again without resolution: Sleeping Beauty, Newcomb's Box, the two-envelope problem.

So I think there's something valuable to be learned from the fact that these problems are hard. Here a... (read more)

0Jonathan_Graehl
I believe I've proven that the thirders are objectively right (and everyone else wrong).
2PhilGoetz
Most of what you said here has already been said, and rebutted, in the comments on the Sleeping Beauties post, and in the followup post by Jonathan Lee. It would be polite, and helpful, to address those rebuttals. Simply restating arguments, without acknowledging counterarguments, could be a big part of why we don't seem to be getting anywhere.
2Morendil
I'd be interested in your opinion on this where I've formalized the SB problem as a joint probability distribution, with as precise a mathematical justification as I could muster as described here. It seems that SB even generates confusion as to where the ambiguity comes from in the first place. :)

I think it's both. "Brave New World" portrays a dystopia (Huxley called it a "negative utopia") but it's also post-utopian because it displays skepticism towards utopian ideals (Huxley wrote it in reaction to H. G. Wells' "Men Like Gods").

I don't claim any expertise on this subject: in fact, I hadn't heard of post-utopianism at all until I read the word in this article. It just seemed to me to be overstating the case to claim that a term like this is meaningless. Vague, certainly. Not very profound, yes. But meaningless, no.

Th... (read more)

Stanislaw Lem, "The Twenty-First Voyage of Ijon Tichy", collected in "The Star Diaries".

0Tamfang
hm, is ''Tichy'' the Polish word for 'peaceful'?

You write, “suppose your postmodern English professor teaches you that the famous writer Wulky Wilkinsen is actually a ‘post-utopian’. What does this mean you should expect from his books? Nothing.”

I’m sympathetic to your general argument in this article, but this particular jibe is overstating your case.

There may be nothing particularly profound in the idea of ‘post-utopianism’, but it’s not meaningless. Let me see if I can persuade you.

Utopianism is the belief that an ideal society (or at least one that's much better than ours) can be constructed, for ex... (read more)

-1BarbaraB
I played a mental game trying to make predictions based on the information, that Wulky Wilkinsen is post-utopian and shows colonial allienation - never heard of any of that before :-). Wulky Wilkinsen is post-utopian ... I expect to find a bunch of critically acclaimed authors, who wrote their most famous books before Wulky wrote his most famous books (5 - 15 years ahead ?), lived in the same general area as Wulky, and portrayed people who were more altruistic and prone to serve general good than we normally see in real life. It does not say too much about the actual writing style of Wulky - he could have written either in the similar way as "the bunch" (utopians), or just the opposite - he could have been just fed up by the utopians' style and portray people more evil than we normally see in everyday life. So my prediction does not tell what Wulky's books feel like, but it is still a prediction, right ? Colonial allienation - the book contains characters that have lived in a colony (e.g. India) for a long time (athough they might have just arrived to the "maternal" colonial country, e.g. Britain). These characters are confronted with other characters that have lived in the "maternal" colonial country for a long time (athough they might have just arrived to the colony :-) ). There are conflicts between these two groups of people, based on their background. They have different preferences when they are making decisions, probably involving other people. Thus they are allienated. Do not tell me this was not the point of Eliezer's post, let me just have some fun !

Indeed. Some rationalists have a fondness for using straw postmodernists to illustrate irrationality. (Note that Alan Sokal deliberately chose a very poor journal, not even peer-reviewed, to send his fake paper to.) It's really not all incomprehensible Frenchmen. While there may be a small number of postmodernists who literally do not believe objective reality exists, and some more who try to deconstruct actual science and not just the scientists doing it, it remains the case that the human cultural realm is inherently squishy and much more relative than p... (read more)

2Jack
Brave New World is definitely dystopian, not post-utopian. Nancy's suggestion for post-utopian is exactly right. I definitely agree that we can meaningfully classify cultural production, though.

Would you consider Le Guin's The Dispossessed to be post-utopian? I think she intends her Anarres to be a good place on the whole, and a decent partial attempt at achieving a utopia, but still to have plausible problems.