All of goose000's Comments + Replies

No problem. Looks like that will be the soonest I'll be able to make it as well.

Looks like SSC meetups are still ongoing: https://www.lesswrong.com/events/ifsZbNmHwxhCm7F4n/slate-star-codex-meetup?commentId=ZccQoDDQY2skHDsAY#ZccQoDDQY2skHDsAY

1frontier64
Oh that's awesome. Thanks for the pingback. Yeah seems like second saturdays so hopefully 9/11.

This whole time? Man, I haven't been looking hard enough. What's the algorithm, 2d Saturdays at 1900?

2Robi Rahman
They're Saturdays at 19:00, but not necessarily the 2nd weekend of the month. We kind of just poll the attendees at the end of each meetup and find out when people are available next month.

Ahh, I think I did not think through what "rationality enhancement" might mean; perhaps my own recent search and the AI context of Yudkowsky's original intent skewed me a little. I was thinking of something like "understanding and applying concepts of rationality" in a way that might include "anticipating misaligned AI" or "anticipating AI-human feedback responses". 

I like the way you've framed what's probably the useful question. I'll need to think about that a bit more.

Cool, thanks for sharing.

I posted about my academic research interest here, do you know their research well enough to give input on whether my interests would be compatible? I would love to find a way to do my PhD in Europe, but especially Germany.

3ChristianKl
Your post suggests that your target is to do research that's supposed to influence AI. As far as I understand the two groups their goal focuses on improving human rationality.  My mental model of Falk Lieder would likely say something like: "The operations research team leader   background is interesting. Did you find a way to bring findings from computational game theory / cognitive science / system modeling / causal inference into a way that you believe helps people in your organization make better decisions? If so it would be great to study in an academically rigorous way whether those interventions lead to better outcomes." 

Cool, that sounds like a pretty useful combination.

I'd love to. The soonest I'd be available in August would be at the end of the month. I'm sure we can find somewhere public that would work. What will you be studying?

1Garrett Baker
I'll be majoring in math, but likely dabbling in computer science and economics as well.

A few observations.

First, it seems likely that the increase in positivity can be explained by fewer precautionary tests: fewer people are getting tested "just to be sure", fewer people are being required by work/travel/etc. to get tested. Therefore fewer negative tests.

Second, it seems likely to me that the "93%, 93%, 91%" numbers are calculated independently from each other. I.e. 93% less likely to contract than unvaccinated, 93% less likely to hospitalize than unvaccinated, and the vaccinated group was 91% less likely to die than the unvaccinated group. ... (read more)

I've started formalizing my research proposal, so I now have:
I intend to use computational game theory, system modeling, cognitive science, causal inference, and operations research methods to explore the ways in which AI systems can produce unintended consequences and develop better methods to anticipate outer alignment failures. 

Can anyone point me to existing university research along these lines? I've made some progress after finding this thread, and I'm now planning to contact FHI about their Research Scholar's Programme, but I'm still finding it... (read more)

1plex
I'd suggest talking to AI Safety Support, they offer free calls with people who want to work in the field. Rohin's advice for alignment researchers is also worth looking at, it talks a fair amount about PhDs. For that specific topic, maybe https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/LpM3EAakwYdS6aRKf/what-multipolar-failure-looks-like-and-robust-agent-agnostic is relevant?

Wait, isn't that an example of efficiency of scale being dependent on investment? You have to get a 1-foot rope and scissors, but once you have, you can create two 1/2 foot ropes? I think the "given a 1-foot rope" is doing more work than you realize, because when I try to apply your example to the world above, I keep getting hung up on "but in the imaginary world above, when we account for economy of scale, if you just needed one 1/2 foot rope, you would just create a 1/2 foot rope, and that would take you 1/2 the time as creating 1 foot of rope." And for ... (read more)

Hmm. I feel like it's relevant that your example relies on trade, which we're trying to eliminate. Therefore, if all of the other reasons for trade go away, this example would be irrelevant.

But can we recreate it elsewhere? Perhaps there is some task which is time sensitive, but cannot be done by one person (in their remaining marginal time) at a speed which does not decrease marginal gains. Information sharing comes to mind, but that seems to have already been accomplished by the society outlined above.

Yeah, I think we’re in agreement. I can’t think why there would ever be a minimum, except to exceed the break-even point on fixed costs. 

1Jsevillamol
Trying to think a bit harder about this - maybe companies are sort of like this? To manage my online shop I need someone to maintain the web, someone to handle marketing, etc. I need many people to work for me to make it work, and I need all of them at once. Let's suppose that I pay my workers directly proportionally to the amount of sales they manage to make it more obvious. As I painted it, this is not about amortizing a fixed cost. And I cannot subdivide the task - if I tell my team I expect to make only 10 sales and pay accordingly they are going to tell me go eff myself (though maybe in the magical world where there are no task-switching costs this breaks down). Another try: maybe a fairness constraint can force a minimum. The government has given me the okay to sell my new cryonics procedure, but only if I can make enough for everyone.

Any chance this will be resuming any time soon?

3Robi Rahman
The meetups are ongoing! We've had meetups for the past 50+ consecutive months with no interruptions, although we had to be outdoors and sparsely distanced during quarantine.
Answer by goose00030

Some interesting responses here, and although I didn't read through all of them, I read enough to get a sense of the kind of approach most people seem to be taking here.

As someone who was where you are now about five years ago, I will share the way I think about it, especially since it seems quite distinct from the approach most people are taking here.

Short answer (and hot take for this crowd): it's not. The kind of morality I believed in as a Christian (an objective truth about things being Right and Wrong) is not possible without a god. 

The illusion... (read more)

Looking through the comments, it seems like most of my thoughts have been captured (economy of scale, collaboration producing non-linear accumulation, etc) But some of the others (risk management, the time axis of logistics) helped me come up with a new one: perishability. When we combine some of the other factors (especially risk) people will at times have a perishable surplus. At these times they would seek to convert this surplus to something non-perishable or some other thing that they need at the time. If we had a society as described above plus uniform starting conditions and everyone used the same dice-rolls (i.e. everyone had the same good/bad corn year), I believe this reason for trade would cease to exist

.

I agree with both, but claim that they are, in a sense, the same problem: if you solve the economy of scale issue, along with the parameters above, people would simply produce the amount desired with no diminishing marginal return problem on consumption.

Isn't 2 just a product of 1? If 1 were not true, couldn't you just get started at small scale? This may be understood, but if not, it seems useful to point out the entanglement.

Also, another aspect of the insurance is spoilage: some goods preserve better than others, so it makes sense to convert excess into something stable so that you can "self insure".

8Ericf
Investment is independent from efficiencies of scale. Example: Given a supply of 1-foot ropes and a scissors, producing one 1/2 foot rope takes the same amount of effort as producing two 1/2 foot ropes. Carving The David required immense human and other capital investment, but didn't have any economy of scale
3Jsevillamol
You are quite right that 1 and 2 are related, but the way I was thinking about them I didn't have them as equivalent. 1 is about fixed costs; each additional sheet of paper I produce amortizes part of the initial, fixed cost  2 is about a threshold of operation. Even if there are no fixed costs, it would happen in a world when I can only produce in large bulks and no individual units. Then again, I am struggling to think of a real-life example of 2, so maybe it is not something that happens in our universe.

Unfortunately, a car is an unavoidable cost for me, I expect that is a large part of the difference.

2Raemon
For sure if you have a car it doesn’t make nearly as much sense to Uber places

I do have a car, but I don't even live in the bay area and didn't realize how many of you were in Berkeley. Makes sense now.

I think I underestimated how much of the Rationalist community was in the bay area. That fact alone resolves most of my confusion, thank you.

But most people's miles are in Uber/Lyft

This is interesting to me, as every time I've looked at Uber/Lyft prices in my area it has seemed a bit high for it to be my go-to option. Can you link me to a good discussion regarding why this is the typical Rationalist choice? (I've read a lot of the sequences, etc. but really don't spend hardly any time on the blog itself)

5Ruby
Nothing fancy. In the Bay Area it's lots of people's choice: * Rail (BART) usually won't take you the last mile or two. * Car ownership is expensive (just having somewhere to park is either expensive or your car is likely to get broken into), plus many people never learned to drive, and parking when you go places is a pain. * The buses are awful. * Uber/Lyft aren't that expensive in this area, or weren't when pooling with other random people. * People are too lazy to cycle. :P (also bikes getting stolen all the time)  
2Elizabeth
Do you have a car? Most rationalists in Berkeley don't, so unless it's nearby or you're doing one of a small set of public-transit compatible routes, Uber/Lyft are the only option.

Nevermind, I think I've mostly figured it out: by arbitraging, I'm effectively borrowing against my various positions, so once the question is resolved, those debts must be paid before I can get the difference.
Another question: what is the more general rule in trying to figure out when this can be done? By my math, 14.88 is about 93% of the 16 options, or 99% of 15 options. This leads me to believe that the more general rule is .99*(n-1) where n is the number of options, which would make sense, since you will not get paid for one of your positions. Is this roughly correct?

As someone new to Predictit, I can't help but feeling I'm misunderstanding how predictit pays out. Now that I have completed this, and have ~859 shares of each "No", will I not get payed $1 for each share of "No" which turns out to in fact be "No"? Based on what everyone is saying here, this seems highly unlikely, but I can't figure out how it works otherwise.

1goose000
Nevermind, I think I've mostly figured it out: by arbitraging, I'm effectively borrowing against my various positions, so once the question is resolved, those debts must be paid before I can get the difference. Another question: what is the more general rule in trying to figure out when this can be done? By my math, 14.88 is about 93% of the 16 options, or 99% of 15 options. This leads me to believe that the more general rule is .99*(n-1) where n is the number of options, which would make sense, since you will not get paid for one of your positions. Is this roughly correct?
Answer by goose00010

Quick update: I came up with a game to use as an icebreaker. And I'd love ideas for future variations. It's a combination of Credence Calibration, 20 Questions, and Taboo. The children are trying to determine which of three possible states exist on the card which I have face down (for my first iteration, the possibilities will be "Cat", "Rat", and "Dog"). Every kid gets 30 poker chips to allocate to each of the three possibilities. Kids will then take turns asking a yes or no question, but before each Q, I roll a six sided die. If it comes up six, all chip... (read more)

Wait a minute, are you Randall Munroe or do you just like the website so much that you adopted the name for your handle? If so, I'm flattered, I love your website.

I like the coin flip idea. I have done something along these lines as a single session with homeschool kids where I gave them two decks of cards and had them stack the deck while I was out. When I came back I used an Excel VBA program I had made to continually reassess the maximum likelihood for the red/black proportion and updated it as I drew cards. Didn't go quite as well as I had hoped, mostly because I didn't emphasize that in order to get quick results they needed to really stack the deck, and they had made it 24 red, 28 black, or something... (read more)

Yes, I agree that doing good science is hard with flash, I've just had everyone telling me that that's what hooks them. Good to know that's not really true.

I'm thinking along the lines heavily leading to/giving the model, not necessarily having them come up with it themselves and then testing it. But part of the reason I'm asking here is to see if anyone has ideas regarding models which are discoverable by kids this age so that they can get there by more of their own processes.

2DirectedEvolution
That’s fair! I think that’s a good idea to explore and I think it’s great to try things out. If you try something and the kids don’t take to it, no harm done :) One thing you could try is some probability. There’s a classic intro stats demo where you have a class come up with fake sequences of 20 coin flips in a row, and generate some real sequences of 20 coin flips as well, all while the teacher is out of the room. Then the teacher comes in and guesses which are real and which are fake. They can do that because people tend to generate fake sequences with too few stretches of repeated heads and tails. Kids can flip a coin, they’d have fun trying to trick you, and when you guessed right, it might seem like a magic trick. You can also teach them a few things about probability and dice rolls and help them see how it applies to board games.

Yes, I suppose I could have been more specific about the number of kids. I will be teaching my own two at a minimum, but could have as many as seven others join.

Thanks for the note about the handbook, I'll check it out.

I like these ideas, and you're right that these KISS type questions are good at getting at the heart of mechanisms and generalizing outside of context.

I'll mention now though, that I've been rightly advised to not disregard the flashy stuff kids like to see, because it is effective at getting them excited about science. Do you have any specific recommendations on how to take some of the classic "experiments for kids!" stuff you can find with a google search and add in a dose of "construct a falsifiable model and attempt to falsify it"? Some way I can keep the flash, but still teach them to the importance of models which allow them to make bold predictions?

6DirectedEvolution
This hasn't been my experience with kids, honestly. Nor is it my interpretation of the education literature that there's overwhelming evidence that making science education flashy is an optimal strategy. It's hard to do good science education while keeping the flash, and flash isn't the most durable emotion. Instead, I find that kids like novelty and play, and they also like to feel capable and appreciated for their knowledge. Things don't have to be flashy to be novel and playful to children. Close observation of the world can reveal novelty to them even in things that are familiar, like the patterns on a garden spider's back, or seeing a rainbow in water sprayed from a hose. Making a routine practice of pointing out these phenomena, asking them about it, and making exploring the world in this manner a part of your relationship is the way I would approach things. I question whether making young kids invent falsifiable models and do controlled experiments is really the best way to kick off their science education. Science education, even in college, is far more about having them read about other people's discoveries and observing the world closely than it is about lab work. Undergraduates rarely if ever invent their own experiments or models. Nothing wrong with having your kids do an experiment here and there if it's fun. But if it were my own children, I'd have them peer through telescopes, look at bugs with a magnifying glass, follow an ant to see if they can find its nest, build a Halloween costume that incorporates some home-made electronics, learn to program a computer game, help you cook a recipe that requires them to double all the proportions of the ingredients, and other things like that. I earnestly believe that the desire to analyze the world follows from a habit of observing it closely.

Thanks for the link! It gave me his email address, I agree about the Inflection Point curriculum, the task will be to convert it to elementary level.

Found it thanks to the website posted below. duncan@rationality.org

How would I contact him?

1goose000
Found it thanks to the website posted below. duncan@rationality.org

Well, my first thought is that I need to spend some actual time on this site (I had to look up most everything you mentioned); Most of my education has simply come from Yudkowsky's book/compilation.

Zendo definitely looks promising, and should definitely be an element of the course as well as something I play with my kids. As I envision the course, however, it would be an element such as a warm up or cash out, not the core curriculum.

My thoughts on Credence Calibration are similar to my thoughts on Zendo with the following modifications: each kid woul... (read more)

2ChristianKl
Yes, however it's worth noting that you can play Zendo in different ways. The time I played it was with arrangement of Lego stones.  You could also play it with other domains like words or sentences. I'm uncertain about how much time a child can effectively learn something from Zendo. At the same time it won't fill the full curriculum. You didn't really speak about how many children you actually want to teach at one time.  When it comes to teaching rationality to adults there's the CFAR handbook. If you are not aware of it, it might be worth looking through it and thinking about what you can teach children.

I took a look; looks pretty cool and I will definitely get this to play with my kids. Not sure it's quite what I want to build a curriculum around though.

C.S. Lewis addressed the issue of faith in Mere Christianity as follows:

In one sense Faith means simply Belief—accepting or regarding as true the doctrines of Christianity. That is fairly simple. But what does puzzle people—at least it used to puzzle me—is the fact that Christians regard faith in this sense as a virtue, I used to ask how on earth it can be a virtue—what is there moral or immoral about believing or not believing a set of statements? Obviously, I used to say, a sane man accepts or rejects any statement, not because he wants or does not want ... (read more)

2RevPitkin
Honestly the CSL definition is I think one of the best for faith. I think though that the lived definition of faith is as trust in God. Because most Christians, me included, would not say that hey believe in God without any evidence at all. The evidence is experiential, feeling forgiven, feeling loved, or some other deeply personal moment. Those moments may not be proof that you can take to a wider society or really anyone who has not had them but they are very real to those who experience them.
-2RainbowSpacedancer
So Bayes update on intellectual arguments, but not on your emotions when you consider them likely to change in the immediate future? That seems like a good virtue if one desires accurate beliefs.