All of Illano's Comments + Replies

Illano
30

One thing that surprised me when looking at the data, is it appears that omnivores did slightly better at getting the answers 'right' (as determined by a simple greater or less than 50% comparison). I would have thought the vegetarians would do better, as they would be more familiar with the in-group terminology. That said, I have no clue if the numbers are even significant given the size of the group, so I wouldn't read too much into it. (Apologize in advance for awful formatting)

Number 'correct' - 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 Grand Total
Omnivore---------- 1  0  1  5  3  8  7  3  0  1      29
Vegetarian-------- 0  0  2  1  5  4  2  0  0  0      14
1Raelifin
You're right, but I'm pretty confident that the difference isn't significant. We should probably see it as evidence that rationalists omnivores are about as capable as rationalist vegetarians. If we look at average percent of positive predictions (predictions that earn more than 0 points): Omnivores: 51% Vegetarians: 46% If we look at non-negative predictions (counting 50% predictions): Omnivores: 52% Vegetarians: 49%
Illano
110

Agreed. I really wish that there was a site like webMD that actually included rates of the diseases and the symptoms. I don't think it would be a big step to go from there to something that would actually propose cost-effective tests for you based on your symptoms.

e.g. You select sore-throat and fever as symptoms and it says that out of people with those symptoms, 70% have a cold, 25% have a strep infection and 5% have something else (these numbers are completely made up). An even better system would then look at which tests you could do to better nail ... (read more)

0[anonymous]
There is a not insurmountable but a pretty large problem here. Rates for which groups? There are a LOT of relevant subgroups (sex, age, ethnicity, social group, geographic group, current medical conditions, previous medical conditions, diet, etc.). Medical diagnostic expert systems exist and do reasonably well, but they are not trivial. On a practical note, the doctors' guild is likely to take a luddite position towards this X-/
Illano
10

I'm probably way late to this thread, but I was thinking about this the other day in the response to a different thread, and considered using the Kelly Criterion to address something like Pascal's Mugging.

Trying to figure out your current 'bankroll' in terms of utility is probably open to intepretation, but for some broad estimates, you could probably use your assets, or your expected free time, or some utility function that included those plus whatever else.

When calculating optimal bet size using the Kelly criterion, you end up with a percentage of yo... (read more)

Illano
110

One easy way I can think of gaming such a test is to figure out ahead of time that those questions will be the ones on the test, then look up an answer for just that question, and parrot it on the actual test.

I know at my college, there were databases of just about every professor's exams for the past several years. Most of them re-used enough questions that you could get a pretty good idea of what was going to be on the exams, just by looking at past exams. A lot of people would spend a lot of time studying old exams to game this process instead of actually learning the material.

Illano
30

Sounds somewhat like the 'gay uncle' theory, where having 4 of your siblings kids pass on their genes is equivalent to having 2 of your own pass on their genes, but with future pairings included, which is interesting.

Stephen Baxter wrote a couple of novels that explored the first theory a bit Destiny's Children series, where gur pbybal riraghnyyl ribyirq vagb n uvir, jvgu rirelbar fhccbegvat n tebhc bs dhrraf gung gurl jrer eryngrq gb.

The addition of future contributors to the bloodline as part of your utility function could make this really interesting ... (read more)

Illano
20

For story purposes, using a multi-tiered variant of utilitarianism based on social distance could lead to some interesting results. If the character were to calculate his utility function for a given being by something Calculated Utility = Utility / (Degrees of Separation from me)^2, it would be really easy to calculate, yet come close to what people really use. The interesting part from a fictional standpoint could be if your character rigidly adheres to this function, such that you can manipulate your utility in their eyes by becoming friends with thei... (read more)

1DataPacRat
I think I once heard of a variant of this, only using degrees of kinship instead of social connections. Eg, direct offspring and full siblings are discounted to 50%, grandchildren to 25%, and so forth.
Illano
70

I didn't look for an extension, but there are definitely a few webpages that will do it for you. For example, your post:

ðə ɪntərnæʃənəl fənɛtɪk ælfəbɛt wəz ərɪdʒənəli mɛnt tu bi juzd æz ə nætʃərəl læŋgwədʒ rajtɪŋ sɪstəm ( fɔr ɪgzæmpəl, ðə dʒərnəl əv ðə ɪntərnæʃənəl fənɛtɪk əsosieʃən wəz ərɪdʒənəli rɪtən ɪn ajpie: èʧtitipí:// fənɛtɪk- blɒg. blogspot. kɑm/ 2012/ 06/ 100- jɪrz- əgo. eʧtiɛmɛl). bətwin ipa|s θiərɛtɪkəl ( fɪziəlɑdʒɪkəl) grawndɪŋ, ɪts wajd jus baj lɪŋgwəsts, ænd ɪts nɪr- lɛdʒəbɪləti baj əntrend ɪŋglɪʃ lɪtərɑti, ajpie ɪz ovər- dətərmənd æz ðə ɑ... (read more)

Illano
170

Since this is a crazy ideas thread, I'll tag on the following thought. If you believe that in the future, if we are able to make ems, and we should include them in our moral calculus, should we also be careful not to imagine people in bad situations? Since by doing so, we may be making a very low-level simulation in our own mind of that person, that may or may not have some consciousness. If you don't believe that is the case now, how does that scale, if we start augmenting our minds with ever-more-powerful computer interfaces. Is there ever a point where it becomes immoral just to think of something?

8Pentashagon
God kind of ran into the same problem. "What if The Universe? Oh, whoops, intelligent life, can't just forget about that now, can I? What a mess... I guess I better plan some amazing future utility for those poor guys to balance all that shit out... It has to be an infinite future? With their little meat bodies how is that going to work? Man, I am never going to think about things again. Hey, that's a catchy word for intelligent meat agents." So, in short, if we ever start thinking truly immoral things, we just need to out-moral them with longer, better thoughts. Forgetting about our mental creations is probably the most immoral thing we could do.
4James_Miller
So George R. R. Martin is a very evil man.
6Lumifer
In e.g. Christianity it's immoral to think of a lot of things :-/
Illano
40

Depends a ton on where you go and what you major in. PayScale has a ranking of a ton of colleges based on their 20-year average incomes compared to 24 years of average income for people with a high-school degree. There probably are some special cases at the tails that would benefit more from not going to college, but for the average college-goer, it is still probably a halfway decent investment.

6Lumifer
Doesn't it tell you whether it was worth going to college 20 years ago?
Illano
10

Sure, the first point is why I think it will work. As for the second, sure, it may not be 100% accurate, but it would be better than nothing, and even negative information could be useful. (e.g. Person X did not have their phone on during the robbery, but otherwise normally has it on them 100% of the time.) I agree it's not an ideal solution, just something that might help a little.

1Lumifer
What do you mean, "will"? It is working. If you are deemed to be a person of sufficient interest to one of the TLAs, they can track your phone right now.
Illano
00

I'm surprised no one has pushed through a cell-phone tracking app as a replacement for the ankle monitors. Sure, its not as secure, and may be left somewhere/forgotten/etc. but if you included it as a condition for parole/probation, you could probably get pretty high usage rates, with little added cost and annoyance.

0MathiasZaman
Justice departments notably have trouble keeping up with modern technology. Where I live, it's still impossible to get a digital copy of your file (leading to a case where someone ate an important document and was able to go free on a technicality). Not just that, but smartphones are not quite ubiquitous yet. Either you require the person to purchase one, or have the state purchase one, neither of which is ideal. I suspect there are also legal and human right problems, since ankle monitors are already used as a form of punishment, but have never been used (as far as I know) as a parole/probation measure.
4Lumifer
First, all cell phones have tracking already built-in as a free (and undeletable) feature X-/ Second, if I know I'm going out to do some robbery and muggery, will it inconvenience me much to leave my cell phone at home?
Illano
00

For more clarification, I was thinking this over when considering rental properties in my area. A lot of people have complained that it is near impossible to make a profit on a rental property where I live. I think a lot of that is because there is a huge chunk of people who have bought property as an investment based on potential appreciation instead of based on cash flow. If your model is using only cash flow, but another model has a 5% appreciation of principle built in to it, it is going to be near impossible to be able to compete with them on rates... (read more)

0Lumifer
I don't see why do you think this is a problem, and a problem for capitalism in particular.
Illano
00

No, I'm saying that capitalism is never purely implemented (with no barriers to entry/perfect information/etc.), and there are cases where due to these inefficiencies, increased competition can cause a poor business model to outcompete a sound business model, leaving nobody standing at the end. This doesn't always happen (hence capitalism mostly works).

5Lumifer
Um. I feel there is some serious disconnect here. Capitalism is not an abstract model that gets "implemented". It is what you empirically get in reality given a few starting points (e.g. personal freedom, right to own property, right to trade, etc.). People build models of that empirical reality and these models are simplified and rely on certain abstractions. But capitalism is not the result of "implementing" these models, quite the reverse -- the models are imperfect descriptions of actual capitalism. Sure. That's fine. One of the reasons capitalism works so well is that failure in it is frequent. The unsuccessful shoots and tendrils need to die off and free up resources for the successful ones. The journey towards the equilibrium is an unending dynamic process that is not a straight line and never gets to its destination, anyway.
Illano
10

This ties in with a thought chain I had this morning. While we may have an incredibly competitive environment, it is also populated by imperfect actors. You can't effectively compete against people who are not accurately evaluating the consequences of their decisions. This can be seen in sports, where illegal performance enhancers are the norm in many sports, and non-dopers can't really keep up (despite the achievements of the dopers being annulled later). This can be seen in business where someone who is willing to sell at a loss and make up for it in... (read more)

2[anonymous]
This is simply expecting too much. The core issue is that other people want different things than you. You want fair sports, they want to win. You can try to make rules but they are not 100%. The only thing that would really work is if they wanted the same thing as you.
1Lumifer
So you're saying capitalism could not possibly work, right? X-/
7Nornagest
I'm not sure if performance-enhancing drug use (at least at the professional level) is a good example of irrationally short planning horizons. I'll bet Lance Armstrong regrets getting caught, but I'll also bet he'd have been worse off in the long run (financially, and also fame-wise) if he didn't use the stuff: it's not unlikely to have made the difference between "world-famous cyclist in disgrace over a drug scandal" and "peaked at a #5 finish in the 1999 Tour". Sure, he lost medals, but that could also be phrased as "bragging rights", and his cycling career was already over the hill at the time.
Illano
10

Exactly. Any observations you make on the AI, essentially give it a communications channel to the outside world. The original AI Box experiment chooses a simple text interface as the lowest bandwidth method of making those observations, as it is the least likely to be exploitable by the AI.

Illano
20

I don't know about varying the amount of water. But if you want to eat fewer calories of rice, there was an article that came out recently saying that the method you use to prepare it could affect the amount of calories your body actually absorbed from it.

Illano
30

I think it is not very hard writing something which will encode a hidden phrase using odd and even counts. (But length is key).

Illano
80

Using the time it takes Earth to rotate one degree gives you 86400 seconds in a day /360 degrees = 240 seconds. But the length of the day has been getting larger as the Earth slows at a rate of about 1.7 ms/century wiki

To find when one degree was equal to 234 seconds, we can find when a day was approximately 234*360 degrees = 84240 seconds, or approximately 127 million years ago. Putting the creation of the stone right in the middle of the Cretaceous Period.

Coincidentally, this also solves the issue of how the T Rex got away with such tiny arms. They had wands!

Illano
20

Yes, but who called the Dark Mark, and pointed out the transfigured mask. It could all be a ruse by LV. Constant Vigilance!

Illano
20

Of course, that would count as losing as well. I just think he needs to explicitly acknowledge that he is losing, so that Voldemort doesn't think he is secretly plotting something else.

I'm just worried that this is all a big setup, and the 37 "Death Eaters" are really Harry's allies in disguise and Imperiused, so any attempt to get out will cause Harry to end up killing all of his friends and put him on the true path towards destroying the stars. There was enough potential foreshadowing for this to be true.

-They aren't wearing the correct bat... (read more)

1Astazha
They all showed up when the Dark Mark was called, only one of them has a transfigured mask replica, and no Death Eaters are likely to be allies to Harry since Voldemort can apparently just will them into seven smoldering pieces at any time.
Illano
60

Harry needs to lose. He needs to drop his wand, kneel down, and say in Parseltongue, "I loosssse." Quirrel has already set up several tests that Harry has failed by refusing to lose. By proving that he can indeed lose, instead of continuing to escalate the conflict until the stars themselves are at risk, he may be able to pass LVs final test.

2Velorien
Surely following Voldemort's exact instructions and giving up his secrets would equally count as losing, without risking annoying Voldemort and getting killed or punished if your hypothesis is wrong?
Illano
40

I thought it was more of a hint as to how he's going to bring Hermione back. Seems to me like surgery gets a lot easier when you can just partially un-transfigure the injured part and fix it, while leaving all the vitals transfigured into something unchanging, like a rock.

Illano
30

I'd be interested to see how the 'goal' category in the survey aligned with the tradeoff coefficient. I can see people looking for a lot different things depending on whether they are looking for a quick fun date, or a long-term relationship.

3JonahS
The distribution of stated goals was 1. Seemed like a fun night out (~40%) 2. To meet new people (~40%) 3. To get a date (~10%) 4. Looking for a serious relationship (~3%) 5. To say I did it (~ 6%) 6. Other (~ 4%) The fact that the percentage who stated that they were looking for a serious relationship is so small is itself a puzzle – my best guess is that people's answers were biased by the order in which the choices were presented. Those who chose answer (4) did in fact have lower tradeoff coefficient, but the effect size is small enough so that given the small sample size, it's not statistically significant. The other answers correlate with the tradeoff coefficient to varying degrees, but the effect sizes are small, and none are statistically significant at the 1% level.
Illano
150

I also am the father of 3yo and 1yo daughters. One of the things I try to do is let their critical thinking or rationality actually have a payoff in the real world. I think a lot of times critical thinking skills can be squashed by overly strict authority figures who do not take the child's reasoning into account when they make decisions. I try to give my daughters a chance to reason with me when we disagree on something, and will change my mind if they make a good point.

Another thing I try to do, is intentionally inject errors into what I say sometim... (read more)

5passive_fist
This sounds like solid parenting; my only concern is that you might not be taking the psychology of children into account. Children sometimes really do need an authority figure to tell them what's true and what isn't; the reason for truth is far less important at that stage (and can be given later, maybe even years later). One issue that could arise is that if you don't show authority then your child may instead gravitate to other authority figures and believe them instead. A child may paradoxically put more faith in the opinions of someone who insists on them irrationally than someone who is willing to change their beliefs according to reason or evidence (actually, this applies to many adults too). It's possible that "demeanor and tone of voice" trumps "this person was wrong in the past." The point is that children's reasoning is far far less developed than adults and you have to take their irrationalities into account when teaching them.
Illano
170

I think you may be missing a time factor. I'd agree with your statement if it was "A system can only simulate a less complex system in real-time." As an example, designing the next generation of microprocessors can be done on current microprocessors, but simulation time often takes minutes or even hours to run a simulation of microseconds.

Illano
30

I was thinking last night of how vote trading would work in a completely rational parliamentary system. To simplify things a bit, lets assume that each issue is binary, each delegate holds a position on every issue, and that position can be normalized to a 0.0 - 1.0 ranking. (e.g. If I have a 60% belief that I will gain 10 utility from this issue being approved, it may have a normalized score of .6, if it is a 100% belief that I will gain 10 utility it may be a .7, while a 40% chance of -1000 utility may be a .1) The mapping function doesn't really matt... (read more)

2owencb
Because we're working in an idealised hypothetical, we could decree that they can't do this (they must all wear their true utility functions on their sleeves). I don't see a disadvantage to demanding this.
1danieldewey
If what you say is true about all trades being 1-for-1, that seems more like a bug than a feature; if an agent doesn't have any votes valuable enough to sway others, it seems like I'd want them to be able (i.e. properly incentivized) to offer more votes, so that the system overall can reflect the aggregate's values more sensitively. I don't have a formal criterion that says why this would be better, but maybe that points towards one.
Illano
00

Good point about the medical costs being a relatively recent development. However, I still think they are a huge hurdle to overcome if wealth staying in a family is to become widespread. Using the number you supplied of $50k/year, the median American at retirement age could afford about 3 years of care. (Not an expert on this, just used numbers from a google search link. This only applies for the middle class though, but essentially it means that you can't earn a little bit more than average and pass it on to your kids to build up dynastic wealth, sin... (read more)

0Shmi
You seem to be grasping here. The OP talked about passing down old family fortunes, not problems building new ones. Whether EOL care expenses are a significant hurdle to the new wealth accumulation is an interesting but unrelated question. My suspicion is that if it is, then there ought to be an insurance one can buy to limit exposure.
6Lumifer
I don't think it ever works like this -- saving a bit and accumulating it generation after generation. The variability in your income/wealth/general social conditions is just too high. "Dynastic wealth" is usually formed by one generation striking it absurdly rich and the following generations being good stewards of it.
Illano
-20

In American society in particular, I would assume a large reason that wealth is not passed from generation to generation currently is the enormous costs associated with end-of-life medical care. You've got to be in the top few percent of Americans to be able to have anything left after medical costs (or die early/unexpectedly which also tends to work against estate planning efforts.)

3buybuydandavis
I don't think those costs are relevant for families with fortunes.
4Shmi
This only became a thing in the last 50 years or so and would not have been a major expense a century ago. Even now the costs are about $50k to $100k per person, which is in line with what a healthy upper middle-class person spends every year. The wealthy spend a lot more than that, so the palliative care costs are unlikely to make a dent in their fortunes.
Illano
20

But the net average quality of life is increased overall.

I'm not sure this necessarily holds true. In very broad strokes, if the quality of life is increased by X for a single immigrant, but having that immigrant present in the country decreases the quality of life for the existing population by more than X/population, then even if a specific immigrants quality of life is improved, it doesn't mean that the net average quality of life is increased overall.

0jbay
Yes..... you may be right, and it is a compelling reason, for example, not to admit terrorists into a country. I suppose that if a particular individual's admission into the country would depress the entire country by a sufficient amount, then that's a fair reason to keep them out, without worrying about valuing different peoples' utilities unequally.
Illano
10

The Culture series by Iain M. Banks has a lot of different examples of mega-structures, and they tend to feature somewhat prominently in his stories. The books themselves are on the hard-SF side of things, but a few of them delve closer to fantasy when they pull a Star Trek, and have an encounter with a less-developed race.

0MrMind
Ah, I love the culture series. Too bad Iain Banks has left the building :( Anyway I read almost all of them, but I'm reluctant to crack open the Hydrogen Sonata, knowing too well that's going to be my last Culture novel...
Illano
00

Your vote redirection idea is interesting, but a simple 1 to 1 mapping may make it just as difficult to find a surrogate voter as it is to research a valid candidate. I've tossed around the idea of a learning system where you could log your preference for multiple issues, then based on those preferences, the system could predict your preference on future issues based on the logged preferences of others. I think a system like that would be a great aid for representatives to use to visualize the current thoughts of their constituents, and could be an intermediate step towards the system you propose here.

Illano
40

As a baseline estimate for just the muscular system, the worlds faster drummer can play at about 20 beats per second. That's probably an upper limit on twitch speeds of human muscles, even with a arbitrarily fast mind running in the body. Assuming you had a system on the receiving end that could detect arbitrary muscle contractions, and could control each muscle in your body independently (again, this is an arbitrarily fast mind, so I'd think it should be able to), there are about 650 muscle groups in the body according to wikipedia, so I would say a goo... (read more)

04hodmt
20 beats per second is for two-handed drumming over one minute, so that's only 10bits/s/muscle theoretical maximum. There doesn't seem to be any organized competition for one-handed drumming, but Takahashi Meijin was famous for button mashing at 16 presses per second with only one hand, although for much shorter times.
Illano
50

Economies of scale come into play here too. If you can get to the point where 2n is a typical job, then having two part-time jobs is likely to not offer as many benefits or long term opportunities as a single full time job. Even if n is a full time job, depending on the job, having one person work massive amounts of hours is probably better for long term promotion potential than two people putting in the bare minimum and constantly having to take time off to take care of children.

Also, as others have noted, a stay-at-home parent is not someone who "... (read more)

Illano
00

I would second Eleusis as a great game for training logical thinking. If you haven't played, at it's core, its basically the 2-4-6 game, with one of the players allowed to make up more complex rules. I've played several times with my friends, and you would be amazed at how difficult it is to tease out even some of the simpler rules. For instance, I once played a game, where a player went through almost 2 decks of cards before realizing the rule was "Alternate Red/Black".

Illano
40

The estimation game you describe sounds a lot like the party game Wits and Wagers, though with the added challenge of predicting what the other players may predict as well.

I like the idea behind your game though. One way you may be able to help it teach to calibrate your own confidence intervals is to have everyone also guess an X% confidence range for their guess (whatever you decide is a good range). Then, each time the answer falls within that range, award the player P points, and whenever it is outside the range, penalize them P/(1-X) points (e.g. confidence of 90%, give 1 point for correct range and -10 for incorrect). To keep the ranges tight, offer another bonus to whoever had the tightest correct bounds.

1Gunnar_Zarncke
I discovered that Wits and Wagers was actually discussed here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/14u/wits_and_wagers/ I tried it out and it is much easier to play than my game and thus is somewhat more fun. But it also has less insights. My experience is as follows: * The trivia questions are not difficult enough. It is very seldom that values lie outside a times 2-range. And 'surprises' are rare. * The questions have an american cultural bias (no wonder) * The 'going over' rule is simple but totally skews the betting and guessing. * The simple payout-rules cause gaming for higher payouts thus mixing confidence and probability in non-trivial ways. * The two-phase setup where you can look where the 'experts' bet is interesting but doesn't help with confidence calibration. It really is optimized for playability. I think it does some calibration of (over)confidence and it builds intuition for probability and risk-trade-offs. But - and that is my main point - it doesn't have clear concepts. The concepts are all mingled up, skewed, hidden. You may gain intuition but it will not help you toward overcoming e.g. overconfidence bias or egocentric bias. I still think for that the concept must be sufficiently present to be able to reflect and consciously use it.
0Gunnar_Zarncke
Indeed. I wasn't aware of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wits_and_Wagers. There is no German match for it (yet). I actually considered using a confidence rating but discarded it because it was too easy to game the rules for it - but that was during the first test games that were about estimating your own performance via multiple estimates (called 'strict variant' in the post). When I switched to estimating the range of the other players guesses I didn't reconsider confidence ranges. Could be an interesting variant. The current gameplay is really simple even though it includes a min-max range. There was a earlier and more complex version that had a 90% range (or more precisely an 1-1/N range) which earned N points if it excluded exactly 1 guess, 1 if it excluded none and 0 if more than 1. That was OK but didn't gain much. The most surprises were still registered by the min-max range.
Illano
00

The first one I can think of definitely knows her reasoning: she doesn't like the taste of meat (though she is more of a vegetarian). For her to eat meat, it basically has to be overly processed to the point where it really doesn't taste like meat anymore (e.g. she will eat hot dogs and pepperoni occasionally).

For the 'true' vegans I know, I'm pretty sure they don't know what their reasoning is, and the only thing that would need to change for them to consider eating meat OK would be for it to stop being trendy for them to be vegan. At least, they've never been able to clearly articulate a position to me.

Illano
20

As one of the people who submitted a CoopBot. I had three primary motivations.

The first came from a simulation of the competition I created in Python, where I created copies of a lot of the strategies mentioned in the thread comments (excluding of course the ones with a nebulous perfectlyPredictOpponent() function). Given that a lot of the strategies discussed involved checking for cooperation with a coopBot, playing an actual coopBot ranked relatively highly in my test competitions, failing primarily against random or defectbots, and it seemed less ex... (read more)

Illano
10

Assuming that you want to keep the exercise somewhat entertaining, modifying a game like balderdash to start with dilbert-esque executive speak and move towards ever more specific levels could provide a fun, easy to understand method to practice moving up and down in levels of specificity.

As to how this would work in practice, have everyone present get into groups of 5-10 (or however many are sitting at a table) and give everyone a key phrase of execu-speak, such as "Energize the end-user experience." Then, everyone writes down a short, but more... (read more)

3handoflixue
In the real world, if the client wants X, it does not matter that ALL the engineers agree that the statement really says Y. Doubly so since engineers and clients often seem to speak two different languages. It's far more useful to learn what the CLIENT wants, not what all the engineers THINK she wants. In fact, learning how to come to this sort of false conclusion seems exactly opposite of what Eliezer wants to teach - you now have a group of engineers convinced that they know what this overly-general statement means, despite never having checked back in with the client! ... of course, for a twist, do this, and then tell them that they're WRONG and the client actually wanted X. Punish them for not thinking to go and actually consult the client. It produces frustration and ill-will (the presenter has just tricked them), but with a receptive audience you do potentially teach a very potent lesson.
1wirov
What I like about this exercise is, that it doesn't require any teacher/judge/… who decides what is specific enough (and may thus cause frustration in participants who disagree). Instead, the exercise ends when everyone agrees on the statements meaning – i.e. when the statement is "specific enough".