All of Indon's Comments + Replies

Indon40

And what makes you sure of that? It even looks like the outline for the three boxes along the top.

Our cultural assumptions are perhaps more subtle than the average person thinks.

Indon40

If the first two shapes on the bottom are diamonds, why is the third shape a square?

5Nornagest
I think that's meant as a field where you'd draw in the shape, diamond and all.
Indon00

That's a good way to clearly demonstrate a nonempathic actor in the Prisoner's Dilemma; a "Hawk", who views their own payoffs and only their own payoffs as having value and placing no value to the payoffs of others.

But I don't think it's necessary. I would say that humans can visualize a nonempathic human - a bad guy - more easily than they can visualize an empathic human with slightly different motives. We've undoubtedly had to, collectively, deal with a lot of them throughout history.

A while back I was writing a paper and came across a fascinat... (read more)

Indon00

Ah, so the statement is second-order.

And while I'm pretty sure you could replace the statement with an infinite number of first-order statements that precisely describe every member of the set (0S = 1, 0SS = 2, 0SSS = 3, etc), you couldn't say "These are the only members of the set", thus excluding other chains, without talking about the set - so it'd still be second-order.

Thanks!

0Kindly
It's a bit worse than that. Even if we defined the "k-successions" operator (which is basically addition), it doesn't actually let us do what we want. "For all x, there exists a number k such that 0 after k successions is equal to x" is always satisfied by setting k=x, even if x is some weird alternate-universe number like 2*. Granted, I have no clue what "taking 2* successions of 0" means, but...
Indon00

Okay, my brain isn't wrapping around this quite properly (though the explanation has already helped me to understand the concepts far better than my college education on the subject has!).

Consider the statement: "There exists no x for which, for any number k, x after k successions is equal to zero." (¬∃x: ∃k: xS-k-times = 0, k>0 is the closest I can figure to depict it formally). Why doesn't that axiom eliminate the possibility of any infinite or finite chain that involves a number below zero, and thus eliminate the possibility of the two-side... (read more)

0ArisKatsaris
I made roughly a similar comment in the Logical Pinpointing post, and Kindly offered a response there. If I understood him correctly basically it meant "you can't use numbers to count stuff yet, until you've first pinpointed what a number is...". And repetition isn't defined in first order logic either.
Indon10

I would suggest that the most likely reason for logical rudeness - not taking the multiple-choice - is that most arguments beyond a certain level of sophistication have more unstated premises than they have stated premises.

And I suspect it's not easy to identify unstated premises. Not just the ones you don't want to say, belief-in-belief sort of things, but ones you as an arguer simply aren't sufficiently skilled to describe.

As an example:

For example: Nick Bostrom put forth the Simulation Argument, which is that you must disagree with either statement (1

... (read more)
Indon100

Perhaps, by sheer historical contingency, aspiring rationalists are recruited primarily from the atheist/libertarian/technophile cluster, which has a gender imbalance for its own reasons—having nothing to do with rationality or rationalists; and this is the entire explanation.

This seems immensely more likely than anything on that list. Libertarian ideology is tremendously dominated by white males - coincidentally, I bet the rationality community matches that demographic - both primarily male, and primarily caucasian - am I wrong? I'm not big into the ra... (read more)

-2[anonymous]
Conversely, if some here see it as a feature and not a problem, it would be in their interest to deflect attention away from this cynical and oh-so-unfair explanation. Really, isn't it impolite to suggest that some people might dread acommodating different backgrounds and perspectives that threaten the neatness and comfort of an exclusive community? Any drive to become less exclusionary is basically a moral signaling spiral, a kind of creeping social justice activism! It corrupts and dumbs down everything it touches, it has no use for our brilliance and fearless dissent!
Indon-10

I think that's an understatement of the potential danger of rationality in war. Not for the rationalist, mind, but for the enemy of the rationalist.

Most rationality, as elaborated on this site, isn't about impassively choosing to be a civilian or a soldier. It's about becoming less vulnerable to flaws in thinking.

And war isn't just about being shot or not shot with bullets. It's about being destroyed or not destroyed, through the exploitation of weaknesses. And a great deal of rationality, on this very site, is about how to not be destroyed by our inherent... (read more)

Indon00

Speaking as a cat, there are a lot of people who would like to herd me. What makes your project higher-priority than everyone else's?

"Yes, but why bother half-ass involvement in my group?" Because I'm still interested in your group. I'm just also interested in like 50 other groups, and that's on top of the one cause I actually prefer to specialize with.

...It seems to me that people in the atheist/libertarian/technophile/sf-fan/etcetera cluster often set their joining prices way way way too high.

People in the atheist/libertarian/technophile/sf... (read more)

Indon20

Reading the article I can make a guess as to how the first challenges went; it sounds like their primary, and possibly only, resolution against the challenge was to not pay serious attention to the AI. That's not a very strong approach, as anyone in an internet discussion can tell you: it's easy to get sucked in and fully engaged in a discussion with someone trying to get you to engage, and it's easy to keep someone engaged when they're trying to break off.

Their lack of preparation, I would guess, led to their failure against the AI.

A more advanced tactic ... (read more)

Indon00

That paper seems to focus on raiding activities; if repeated raiding activities are difficult, then wouldn't that increase the utility of extermination warfare?

Indeed, the paper you cite posits that exactly that started happening:

The earliest conclusive archaeological evidence for attacks on settlements is a Nubian cemetery (site 117) near the present-day town of Jebel Sahaba in the Sudan dated at 12,000-14,000 B.P. (7, 12). War originated independently in other parts of the world at dates as late as 4,000 B.P. (13). Otterbein argues that agriculture was

... (read more)
Indon00

Well, it's not conclusive evidence by any means, but I did note that we have no hominoid relatives; they're all extinct with a capital E. To me, that implies something more than just us being better at hunting-gathering.

And if we, as a species, did exterminate one or more other hominid species, then it seems a small leap of logic to conclude we did the same to each other whenever similar circumstances came up.

-2MugaSofer
Remember, different hominid species were, y'know, different species, with different (apparently suboptimal) adaptations. So them getting exterminated is more likely in any case.
7Nornagest
Two points. First, the extinction of nonhuman hominids happened at about the same time as a more general die-out of megafauna. Overhunting by H. sapiens is one popular explanation for why that happened, but it's not the only one, and if one of the alternatives ends up being true (or partly true) then it could easily have affected our hominid relatives as well. Second, species inadvertently cause each other to go extinct all the time without going to war with each other, just by competing for a niche; consider any of the introduced species that have been causing ecological problems recently. Again, this could easily have happened to our hominid relatives over the timescales we're discussing. These ideas, of course, aren't mutually exclusive.
Indon80

I don't get the flippant exclusion of group selection.

To the best of my knowledge, humans are the only species that has been exposed to continuous group selection events over hundreds of thousands of years, and I would argue that we've gotten very, very good at the activity as a result.

I'm referring, of course, to war. The kind that ends in extermination. The kind that, presumably, humans practiced better than all of our close hominid relatives who are all conspicuously extinct as of shortly after we spread throughout the world.

This is why I'm not much buy... (read more)

-2MugaSofer
Minor point: it's my understanding that wars of extermination are not a human universal.
Indon00

I think that's a workable description of the process, but using that you still have the mathematical tendency to appreciate elegance, which, on this process model, doesn't seem like it's in the same place as the "mathematical method" proper - since elegance becomes a concern only after things are proven.

You could argue that elegance is informal, and that this aspect of the "Science V Bayes" argument is all about trying to formalize theory elegance (in which case, it could do so across the entire process), and I think that'd be fair, but... (read more)

Indon00

I wasn't comparing scientists running a simulation with mathematicians running a simulation. I was comparing scientists collecting evidence that might disprove their theories with mathematicians running a simulation - because such a simulation collects data that might disprove their conjectures.

What is an example of something a scientist can prove with 'just logic'?

We'll need to agree on a subject who is a scientist and not a mathematician. The easiest example for me would be to use a computer scientist, but you may argue that whenever a computer scien... (read more)

Indon-20

If that's the case, and if it is also the case that scientists prefer to use proofs and logic where available (I can admittedly only speak for myself, for whom the claim is true), then I would argue that all scientists are necessarily also mathematicians (that is to say, they practice mathematics).

And, if it is the case that mathematicians can be forced to seek inherently weaker evidence when proofs are not readily available, then I would argue that all mathematicians are necessarily also scientists (they practice science).

At that point, it seems like dupl... (read more)

0PrawnOfFate
Their inherently weaker evidence still isnt empirical evidence. Computation isn;t intrinsically emprical, because a smart enough mathematician could do it in their head...they are just offloading the cognitive burden.
0Kindly
Fair enough, but I think that the example of mathematics was brought forth because of the thing mathematicians primarily do. So we could rather say that "the scientific method" refers to the things scientists (and mathematicians) do when there are no proofs, which is to test ideas through experiment, and "the mathematical method" refers to proving things. Of course, you don't have to draw this distinction if you prefer not to; if you claim that both of these things should be called "the scientific method" then that's also fair. But I'm pretty sure that the "Science vs. Bayes" dilemma refers only to the first thing by "Science", since "Bayes" and "the mathematical method" don't really compete in the same playing field.
Indon00

Your claim leads me back to my earlier statement.

If I could show you an example of mathematicians running ongoing computer simulations in order to test theories (well. Test conjectures for progressively higher values), would that demonstrate otherwise to you?

Because as Kindly notes, this happens. Mathematicians do sometimes reach for mere necessary-but-not-sufficient evidence for their claims, rather than proof. But obviously, they don't do so when proof is more accessible - and usually, because of the subject matter mathematicians work with, it is.

0EHeller
There is a difference between checking the internal consistency of a simulation and gathering evidence. Scientists who use simulation calibrate the simulation with empirical measurements, and they generally are running the simulation to make predictions that have to be tested against yet more empirical measurement. Mathematicians are just running a simulation in a vacuum. Its a very different thing. What is an example of something a scientist can prove with 'just logic'?
Indon00

I feel this reply I made captures the link between proof, evidence, and elegance, in both scientific and mathematical fields.

That is to say, where proof is equivalent for two mutually exclusive theories (because sometimes things are proven logically outside mathematics, and not everything in mathematics are proven), evidence is used as a tiebreaker.

And where evidence is equivalent for two mutually exclusive theories (requiring of course that proof also be equivalent), elegance is used as a tiebreaker.

Indon10

You go back and prove it if you can - and are mathematicians special in that regard, save that they deal with concepts more easily proven than most? When scientists in any field can prove something with just logic, they do. Evidence is the tiebreaker for exclusive, equivalently proven theories, and elegance the tiebreaker for exclusive, equivalently evident theories.

And that seems true for all fields labeled either a science or a form of mathematics.

0PrawnOfFate
Hmmmm}...
0Kindly
I would say that when they do this, they are doing mathematics instead of science. (By the time that scientists can prove something with logic, they necessarily have a mathematical model of their field.)
-1Shmi
You have it backwards. Evidence is the only thing that counts. Logic is a tool to make new models, not to test them. Except in mathematics, where there is no way to test things experimentally.
Indon-20

If I could show you an example of mathematicians running ongoing computer simulations in order to test theories (well. Test conjectures for progressively higher values), would that demonstrate otherwise to you?

And it's not as if proofs and logic are not employed in other fields when the option is available. Isn't the link between physics and mathematics a long-standing one, and many of the predictions of quantum theory produced on paper before they were tested?

-1Shmi
Here is the difference: the superstring theory is a reasonably good mathematical model which predicts a spacetime with 10 or 11-dimensions on purely mathematical grounds. It also predicts that particles should come in pairs (quarks+squarks). Despite its internal self-consistency, it's not a good model of the world we live in. Whether mathematicians use the scientific method depends on your definition of the scientific method (a highly contested issue on the relevant wikipedia page). Feel free to give your definition and we can go from there.
4Kindly
This happens, but the conclusion is different. No matter how many cases of an infinite-case conjecture I test, it's not going to be accepted as proof or even particularly valid evidence that the conjecture is true. The point of doing this is more to check if there are any easy counter-examples, or to figure out what's going on in greater detail, but then you go back and prove it.
Indon00

That's nice, but how does the Mathematical Method differ from the scientific one?

What differing insights do the 'Math Goggles' offer, as it were.

8A1987dM
“Engineers think equations approximate reality, physicists think reality approximates equations, mathematicians don't care about reality”?
7Shmi
Mathematicians do not test their models against Nature, the ultimate arbiter, only for self-consistency and validity within their own framework. Math will be the same in many different possible worlds. Of course, on their less-sane days they engage in philosophical debates about which axioms are right.
Indon00

I would argue that there are plenty of fields of science in which elegance is considered important.

Most prominently, mathematics. Mathematicians do run experiments, courtesy of computers, and it is the very field physics must so closely rely on. If mathematicians do not practice the scientific method, what the heck do they do?

Desrtopa100

If mathematicians do not practice the scientific method, what the heck do they do?

Practice mathematics? It's a pretty distinct thing unto itself.

Indon30

Since you're a computer guy (and I imagine many people you talk to are also computer-savvy), I'm surprised you don't use file/process analogues for identity.

  • If I move a file's physical location on my hard drive, it's obviously still the same file, because it has handle and data continuity. This is analogous to existing in different locations, being expressed with different atoms.
  • If I change the content of the file, it's obviously still the same file, because it has handle and location continuity. This is analogous to changing over not-technically-time-b
... (read more)
Indon00

Morality-as-preference, I would argue, is oriented around the use of morality as a tool of manipulation of other moral actors.

Question one: "It is right that I should get the pie" is more convincing, because people respond to moral arguments. Why they do so is irrelevant to the purpose (to use morality to get what you want).

Question two: People don't change their terminal values (which I would argue are largely unconscious, emotional parameters), though they might change how they attempt to achieve them, or one terminal value might override a di... (read more)

Indon30

I find it amusing that in this article, you are advocating the use of deliberate self-deception in order to ward yourself against later deliberate self-deception.

That said, I feel the urge to contribute despite the large time-gap, and I suspect that even if later posts revisit this concept, the relevance to my contribution will be lower.

"I believe X" is a statement of self-identity - the map of the territory of your mind. But as maps and territories go, self-identity is pretty special, as it is a map written using the territory, and changes in th... (read more)