All of KyriakosCH's Comments + Replies

Machine language is a known lower level; neurons aren't; perhaps in the future there will be more microscopic building blocks examined; maybe there is no end to the division itself. 

In a computer it would indeed make no sense for a programmer to examine something below machine language, since you are compiling or otherwise acting upon it. But it's not a known isomorphism to the mind.

 

If you'd like a parallel to the above, from the history of philosophy, you might be interested in comparing dialectic reasoning and Aristotelian logic. It's not by a... (read more)

2ChristianKl
That doesn't change that models of neither are of much use for most practical applications. If you do gene therapy with the target of changing cognition, it helps to understand what neurons do. If you care about how to memorize information it's irrelevant and you rather focus on empirics of what happens when human memorize information. Aristotle knew little about how to do science and learn through empiricism and today we have a much better idea of how to learn about the world then we had back then. Thinking in thousand year old terms while ignoring recent advances in how to gather knowledge is ineffective. 

How memories are stored certainly matters, it is too much of an assumption that levels are sealed off. Such an assumption may be implicitly negated in a model, but obviously this doesn't mean something has changed; the nature of material systems has this issue, unlike mathematical ones.

Another poignant property of material systems is that at times there is a special status of observer for them. In the case of the mind, you have the consciousness of the person and while certainly it can be juxtaposed to other instances of it, it is a different relation from... (read more)

2ChristianKl
It matters as much for this discussion as how the physics of a transitor work for programming computers.  Biases aren't a black box. One can understand where human intuition is good and where it isn't by looking at empirical feedback.  In general people who engage with empiric reality don't spend much time speaking about the problem of consciousness in their fields.

Going by practice, it does seem likely that intertwined (nominally separate, as over-categories) memories will be far easier to recall at will, than any loosely related (by stream of consciousness) collection of declarative memories. However it is not known if the stored memories (of either type) actually are stored individually or not; they are many competing models for how a memory is stored and recalled, up to the lowest/"lowest" -for there may be no lowest in reality - level of neurons.

That said, I was only asking about other people's intuitive sense of what works better. It isn't possible to answer using a definitive model, due to the number of unknowns. 

1ChristianKl
How memories are actually stored doesn't matter directly. Yes, and I don't think that the distinction that the question makes is a useful one.  Anybody who has used Anki for a while actually has hard data for which information takes a lot of repetitions for the person to remember and which doesn't. It's not a matter of intuition of guessing what's hard to remember based on some model of what neurons do.  Given how objective Anki statistics often differ from people's intuition about what costs them time I would also not put too much stock into pure intuition based on a few anecdotes you have in your mind because the vast bulk of the information that you successfully remember doesn't make it into your anecdotes. 

I mean more cost-effective, so to speak. My sense is that while procedural is easier to sustain (for years, or even for the entirety of your life), it really is more suitable for focused projects instead of random/general knowledge accumulation. Then again it is highly likely that procedural memories help with better organization overall, acting as a more elegant system. In that, declarative memories are more like axioms, with procedural being either rules or just application of rules, with far fewer axioms needed. 

4ChristianKl
Strategies to memorize can be cost effective or not. Strategies can be much more specific then two broad categories.  Using Anki together with good mnemonic techniques to make the first formation of the memory strong is likely one of the best ways to get individual memories as units into long-term memory. Then fighting memory interference (which is the problem in Juni/July) is also important. In many cases having interlocking knowledge is however a more effective way to hold large bases of knowledge in one's head. That means you need lots of connections in your knowledge so that accessing one aspect helps keep the others stay around. 

I agree. Although my question was not whether 3d is real/independent of the observer. I was wondering why for us it had to be specifically 3d instead of something else.

For all we know, maybe "3d" isn't 3d either, in that any way of viewing things would end up seeming to be 3d. In a set system, with known axioms, examined from the outside, 3d just follows 2d. But if as an observer you are 3d-based, it doesn't have to follow that this is a progression from 2d at all and it might just be a different system.

You are confusing "reason to choose" (which is obviously not there; optimal strategy is trivial to find) with "happens to be chosen". Ie you are looking at what is said from an angle which isn't crucial to the point.

Everyone is aware that scissors is not be chosen at any time if the player has correctly evaluated the dynamic. Try asking a non-sentence in a formal logic system to stop existing cause it evaluated the dynamic, and you'll get why your point is not sensible.

Thank you, I will have a look!

My own interest in recollecting this variation (an actual thing, from my childhood years) is that intuitively it seems to me that this type of limited setting may be enough so that the inherent dynamic of 'new player will go for the less than optimal strategy', and the periodic ripple effect it creates, can (be made to) mimic some elements of a formal logic system, namely the interactions of non-sentences with sentences.

So I posted this as a possible trigger for more reflection, not for establishing the trivial (optimal strategy in this corrupted variation of the game) ^_^

Please read my edited reply to lsusr.

Edit (I rewrote this reply, cause it was too vague in the original :) )

 

Very correct in regards to every player actually having identified this (indeed, if all players are aware of the new balance, they will pick up that glue is a better type of scissors so scissors should not be picked). But imagine a player comes in and hasn't picked up this identity, while (for different reasons) they have picked up an aversion to choose rock from previous players. Then scissors still has a chance to win (against paper), and effectively rock is largely out, so the ... (read more)

1[anonymous]
Regardless of what the new player does, there is no reason to ever play scissors. I don't see any interesting "4-choice dynamic" here. Perhaps you should pick a different example with multiple Nash equilibria.

" Presumably the machine learning model has in some sense discovered Newtonian mechanics using the training data we fed it, since this is surely the most compact way to predict the position of the planets far into the future. "

To me, this seems to be an entirely unrealistic presumption (also true for any of its parallels; not just when it is strictly about the position of planets). Even the claim that NM is "surely the most compact [...]" is questionable, given that obviously we know from history that there had been models able to pr... (read more)

Answer by KyriakosCH10

Thank you all for your answers... I will be taking this piece out, cause ultimately it isn't anything good :)

Cthulhu ^_^


Well, this is only an introductory part. The glyphs are to be described later, and they stand for the meaning of the intense emotion. Much like the idol symbolizes the emotion as a whole, the glyphs on it are specks which may be analyzed.


If I may, to address both yours and MakoYass gist of the replies:


-I do feel that the summation of the excerpt is not loyal to the idea I had - which, to be sure, means I did fail, cause I cannot ask of the reader to see just what I aimed. That said, my own summation would be as follows:


1) vengeful acts seem to b... (read more)

7Isnasene
Big fan. The universe is weird and scary. Rationality tends to help you to feel this more deeply than you would otherwise. So I'm not exactly sure what the literary goal of this piece is. If you're writing to give people an understanding of something to people, it's good form to sign-post things that will be important later as things that will be important later--otherwise readers will just blow past them and get confused later on when they come up again. Stuff like this sometimes works in fiction (ie Chekhov's Guns) but isn't optimal for helping people understanding things Also, meta-point (Note--I'm not a moderator, I'm just some guy): This isn't a big deal but, in general, Less Wrong is about exploring an understanding of rationality and rationality-adjacent things and given the three observations below-- 1. We, as a community, have a pretty deep game-theoretic understanding of why people feel motivated to engage in vengeance--and this piece doesn't really go there 2. This piece isn't really optimized for clearly conveying the conclusions in your summary--so if someone is reading this piece for insight, it's hard for them to figure out if what the piece is saying is something they already know 3. This piece is making a request of readers to review it and give feedback This post in general is alright but you are making a request of Less Wrong users that isn't particularly well-aligned with community interests. And, consequently (I think), this post has a pretty low response rate. If you'd like to get a more positive response/more feedback on Less Wrong in the future, I suggest that you do some number of the following things * Incorporate the Less Wrong corpus of knowledge on the topic you're discussing into your discussion of the topic * Provide a summary of the claims made in your writing piece prior to the piece itself (this will help readers both give feedback and decide more quickly about whether they want to read it) * Link your writing to other r

" People don't live merely to survive: we're hardwired to propagate our genes. If you cannot think abstractly and articulate your ideas well, you will have difficulty attracting a mate. People who have disabled their ability to examine themselves will be quickly eliminated from the gene pool. Hence, it seems unlikely that such an illness will occur because it goes against how natural selection has shaped us. "

I don't disagree with the gist of the above. However it is tricky to assign clear intentions to a non-human agent, a... (read more)

" The idea that consciousness is an phenomenon unrelated to brain structure and neural connections, is not helpful" is something I agree with. My question meant to have you argue in what way this hypothesis prerequisites a duallistic view.

Hi, I read the synopsis in that wiki page. While the Snow Crash story seems highly unlikely, indeed there isn't any prerequisite of understanding (by the conscious person) so that a change may take place. One could go as far as to claim that understanding by its very nature rests mostly on not understanding, while focusing on something to be understood.

I certainly am not aiming to define possible conditions under which something like the DZI may occur. Those may or may not exist. However it isn't by itself unrealistic that if we suppose that the ... (read more)

2Dagon
By "weird dualism", I mostly mean "dualism" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism ), which is weird to me in all it's forms. The idea that consciousness is an phenomenon unrelated to brain structure and neural connections, is not helpful.

Intuitively, I think it is possible it will appear.

Rationally, one may consider the following as well:

-not much time has passed since the first use of language (by prehistoric people) to this day, so it can be assumed that only a negligible part of the possible mental calculations/connections has occured

-there is no direct survival bonus through ability to think in complicated manner; on the other hand there is arguably an cost-effective logic in disabling great freedom in self-examination

However it may take centuries for that to happen.

At any rate, it is ... (read more)

2Charles Zheng
Regardless of when language emerged (plausibly 50,000-200,000 years ago), we can probably agree that only a negligible part of "possible mental connections have occurred." However, this in itself does not seem a compelling reason to worry about a hypothetical mental illness that we have never seen before. People don't live merely to survive: we're hardwired to propagate our genes. If you cannot think abstractly and articulate your ideas well, you will have difficulty attracting a mate. People who have disabled their ability to examine themselves will be quickly eliminated from the gene pool. Hence, it seems unlikely that such an illness will occur because it goes against how natural selection has shaped us. This reasoning seems to rely on the assumption that the mind was designed by some kind of agent. Who do you think is deciding whether it "makes sense" to allow an expansion of the ability to think? Our best theory is that cognitive expansion resulted as a series of mutations that improved the ability of our ancestors to survive. One does not need to appeal to the fact that "Day Zero illness" does not "make sense" to argue for its implausibility. It is implausible simply by the fact that it is a priori highly unlikely for any novel previously unobserved phenomenon to exist in the absence of a very strong theory that predicts it.

I wish to examine a point in the foundations of your post - to be more precise, a point which leads to the inevitable conclusion that it is not problematic in this discussion to use the term 'agent' while it is understood in a manner which allows a thermostat to qualify as an agent.


A thermostat certainly has triggers/sensors which force a reaction when a condition has been met. However to argue that this is akin to how a person is an agent is to argue that a rock supposedly "runs" the program known as gravity, when it falls. The issue i... (read more)

1Pattern
What do you think of the following taxonomy?: Inactive: Rocks (in isolation*) Reactive/Reaction Circuits: Thermostat Decisive/Active/Agents/Conscious: Humans *A circuit can be made out of dominos.

I do suspect that when things make sense it is because of a drive of the sense-making agent to further his/her understanding, but I think that unwittingly it is actually a self-understanding and not one of the cosmos. If the cosmos does make sense, it isn't making sense to some chance observer like a human who is at any rate a walking thinking mechanism and has very little consciousness of either his own mental cogs or the dynamics between his own thinking and anything external and non-human. That this allows for distinct and verifiable progre... (read more)

I generally agree, and I am happy you found the discussion interesting :)

In my view, indeed the Babylonian type of labyrinth does promote continuous struggle, or at least multiple points of hope and focus on achieving a breakthrough, while ultimately a majority of the time they won't lead to anything - and couldn't have lead to anything in the first place. The Arabian type at least promotes a stable progression, towards an end - although that end may already be a bad one.

Most of the time we simply move in our labyrinth anyway. And with more theoretical goals it can be said that even a breakthrough is more of a fantasy borne out of the endless movement inside the maze.

A good question. I would think that while the story doesn't have much to offer regarding conscious mental calculation and systems, it still includes a set of powerful allegories (in my article I did mention one of them: Algernon seems to stand for the somatic part, with the person turning into a purely mental entity; another allegory seems to be about the need to stop extrapolating thoughts to prevent an overload) which can, consciously or not, bring about changes to the reader's rationality.


I don't think the story has much to do with youth ... (read more)

I entirely agree with you. The story isn't hard scifi at all, and this much is clear :)

It still is one of the gloomiest pieces of literature ever written, and it does manage to move the reader...

2Dagon
I found it gloomy when I was younger. Now I find it merely an interesting take on somehow increasing some aspects of IQ and perception without increasing the rational aspects (acceptance of truth, action in pursuit of goals) of a mind. Also, I'm far more aware of the metaphor for life: youth is stupid and unknowing, we learn things and understand more as we age, then we wither and die. This is perhaps gloomy, but perhaps simply the way of things. And the question that would make it relevant to less wrong and rationality is: it moves the reader, sure. Does it move the reader toward truth and rational models of the universe, or in some other direction? Simply increasing one's view of hypothesis-space is good enough to be worthwhile, but there's a LOT of works which do that. How does this one excel?

While "yes requires the possibility of no" is correct, one should also establish whether or not either yes or no is meaningful itself in the context of the examination. For example, usually one is not up against a real authority, so whether the view of the other person is in favor or against his/her own the answer cannot be final for reasons other than just the internal conflict of the one who poses (or fears to pose) the question.

Often (in the internet age) we see this issue of bias and fear of asking framed in regards to hybrid matters, both sc... (read more)

1awe lotta
So like, sometimes when the answer seems vague it's because there are actually two questions? Like, "am I good at music" can be answered in relation to the entire world or to ones friend group, or specifically focusing on music theory versus performance versus composition versus taste, so there's no meaningful (one word) response; it's always possible to doubt reassurance because one can look at a slightly different question. At least, that's what I think I get from your penultimate paragraph. I don't understand your first two paragraphs. I think your first paragraph is saying: the opinions of individuals doesn't definitively answer yes or no, because you need an authority. Second paragraph: We only experience bias with personal and not scientific/political questions because we are more emotionally involved with the formal, which also(?) lack an authority to give a definitive answer. Is that accurate? I usually interpret this as action. When one is doubting whether one is good enough to get into some school, it doesn't really matter to evaluate goodness because the correct action is still usually to apply/audition, viz. applying/auditioning dominates. And a negative result doesn't justify hating oneself because self-hatred is unproductive, viz. self-neutrality dominates.

There is a nice quote by Socrates (iirc it is in the dialogue with the geometrician Theaetetos*) where Socrates mentions one of the views about the origin of philosophical thinking, namely that it is born from the sense of dazzle (thamvos, in Greek). He meant (in context) that when a thinker senses something impressive and unknown, he/she is bound to examine it.

Thamvos is, of course, distinct from anxiety, such as when the sense is negative or even horrific.


In essence I agree that one of the prerequisites for intricate thought is the ability (and chance) t... (read more)

" Well, here is the point where we disagree. In my view, equations for e.g. gravity or quantum physics are given by nature. Different species may use different syntax to describe them, but the freedom to do so would be quite limited. "

Yet differences of syntax connote relative uniformity in the observers as well as presupposing science being cosmic (also math being cosmic, where it relates to scientific examination). In my view supposing that indeed the cosmos (something clearly external to our mind) is examined and accounted for in a way whic... (read more)

2Viliam
Coincidentally, some complex mathematical things are also related to the movement of heavenly bodies. So I'd say humans are good both at noticing simplicity and noticing complexity.

" If the hypothetical aliens live in the same universe, they will probably develop natural numbers, some version of calculus, probably complex numbers, etc. Because those are things that describe the universe. "

I think that they might not. Of course I cannot be certain, but at least in the hypothetical I meant aliens which indeed do not have even the concept of a natural number or other similar concept. And in my view the notion of a sum (a oneness, something specific and easy to contrast to other objects or qualities) is quite possibly (tied t... (read more)

3Viliam
Well, here is the point where we disagree. In my view, equations for e.g. gravity or quantum physics are given by nature. Different species may use different syntax to describe them, but the freedom to do so would be quite limited. The fact that Kepler tried to have it one way, but it turned out to be other way, is an evidence for "the universe having its own mind about the equations", isn't it? Of course an alternative explanation is that the scientists -- mostly men, at least in history -- unconsciously prefer shapes that remind them of boobs.

I will try to offer my reflection on the two matters you mentioned.

1)First of all whether this development may have been social. It would - to a degree - but if so then it would be a peculiar and prehistoric event:

If I was to guess, at some point (in deep prehistory) our ancestors could not yet be able to communicate using anything resembling a language, or even words. Prior to using words (or anything similar to words) prehistoric humans would only tenuously tie their inner world (thinking & feeling) to formulated or isolated notions. It is highly li... (read more)

Hi, yes, I do not mean why the Fibonacci spiral approximates the Golden Spiral. I mean why we happen to see something very close to this pattern in some external objects (for example some shells of creatures) when it is a mathematical formation based on a specific sequence.

I referred to it to note that perhaps we project math onto the external world, including cases where we literally see a fully fledged math spiral.

There are other famous examples. Another is The Vitruvian Man (proportions of man by Vitruvius, as presented by DaVinci). One would be tempted... (read more)

2Pattern
As for whether math "is cosmic" or not: If we are projecting, then is this tendency one we developed (social) or one we inherited (evolution)? If it is evolutionary, then perhaps* if we ran into intelligent aliens (which evolved) they'd "have math" as well. If it is a property of living things in the external world (which seems to be the case), then it may be the way they are (as opposed to a projection). And that may also be the result of evolution*. So we may be seeing such things as they are (readily) because we have a tendency to see patterns of certain forms, with the downside of occasionally seeing patterns where there are none as a consequence of this fitting. *While evolution might "work the same way" in other places, what is specific to Earth isn't super clear, and how much things generalize remains to be seen.

Thank you. Intuitively I would hazard the guess that even non-obvious systems (such as your example of the story which rests on axioms) may be in the future presented in a mathematical way. There is a very considerable added hurdle there, however:

When we communicate about math (let's use a simple and famous example: the Pythagorean theorem in Euclidean space) we never focus on parameters that go outside the system. Not only parameters which are outside the set axioms which define the system mathematically (in this case Euclidean space) but more import... (read more)

If you mean my example using people who were born blind, I meant that much like they develop their own system and theory to identify what they cannot sense (visible space), so do all humans in regards to identifying how the external world/the cosmos functions. It isn't about which one is "less real", unless we claim that there is one being (or one group of beings etc) which witness an actual reality. That itself is highly debatable (eg Descartes, and some other thinkers, usually reversed such a role for a deity).

If those aliens are able to understand notions such as momentum, it would be because they can (in whatever way; sense or other) understand more fundamental notions which may be non-cosmic. Some good examples of such notions, from Eleatic philosophy (Parmenides, Zeno etc) are size, form, position, movement (change) and time. To a human, those ideas tie to something evident. An alien may not have them at all. An alien closely resembling humans may have them (as well as math).

Indeed, crows are a good example of non-human creatures that use something which may be identified as math (crows have been observed to effectively even notice the -its practical manifestation, obviously - law of displacement of liquids :) )

I used human as a synecdoche here, that is chose the most prominent creature we know that uses math, to stand for all that (to some degree) do. Even if we accept that crows or other creatures have a similar link (itself debatable) it still would link math to dna found on our planet. My suspicion is that what we identify... (read more)

2wizardcheetah
I'm interested to know if you think this is an argument for cosmic math. Even if you are not convinced by it I am still interested to know if it is arguing against your position of anthropic math. Consider 'momentum'. It is a concept that comes straight out of math. The only reason momentum is named is because it is conserved. You have a system, you do some direct measurements, and combine those measurements into a derived measure of momentum, m1. You keep the system closed, but otherwise do a bunch of whacky stuff to the system and you meaure the momentum again, m2. You will find that m1-m2 = 0. If we go anywhere in the universe we will find the same observation holds true. If we made contact with ET's that have progressed to primitive farmers however far humans made it before doing math. If we teach them to do the observations they will find the same phenomenon. If we left them to develop on their own then is there some part of that process that they would be incapable or unmotivated to do? This may be my last contribution.

Thanks for the reply. I think that it does matter, because if math is indeed anthropic then it should follow that humans are in effect bringing to light parts of our own mental world. It isn't a discovery of principles of the cosmos, but of how any principles (to the degree they exist in parts of the cosmos) are translated by our mentality. I do find it a little poetic, in that if true it is a bit like using parts of yourself so as to "move" about, and special kind of "movement" requires special knowledge of something still only hu... (read more)

2Slider
I don't understand how the heard world is less real than the seen world.
2wizardcheetah
So you are comparing math to a pursuit that is clearly an exploration of the human mind like graphic design or other arts. But I am still fuzzy on the 'why'? I can share that wild crows, too, can count up to 4. But because I am not clear on your why I'm not sure how this observation will affect you. It shows that there are at least some part of math that are useful to non-humans. But perhaps you are referring to more sophisticated math systems like ZFC set theory, in which case the crows don't have a say.

The thing-in-itself indeed ties somewhat more clearly to the HPL mythos beings, in that they are (by majority; or at least the major ones in the pantheon) supposed to not be three-dimensional in the first place. The thing-in-itself is the object without having to be rendered by any specific observer's point of view.

While in (most) philosophy one doesn't examine a topic which is able to cause anxiety, the notions themselves do negate a possible anxiety which would be caused by any examination, in my view. Again, even the notion of the thing-in-its... (read more)

A nice story!

If I may intrude on the solar labyrinth a bit, in my view the mental world may indeed have aspects of a solar labyrinth, only that at set times (triggered by difficult to calculate events) what had been only a game of shadow and light now takes the form of the most concrete wall.

I do love your remark about the solar labyrinth not forcing the guest to even accept it as a labyrinth. Yet I think that at some point (potentially) any mental scheme which seems fleeting and easy to bypass can indeed become stable and even frighteningly immediate & demanding a solution if one is to be allowed to leave.