All of Elle N's Comments + Replies

Elle N10

I see what you are saying. I think an assumption I'm making is that it is correct to say what you believe in an argument. I'm not always successful at this, but if my heuristics where telling me that the person I'm talking to is stupid or dishonest, it would definitely come through the subtext even if I didn't say it out loud. People are generally pretty perceptive and I'm not a good liar, and I wouldn't be surprised if they felt defensive without knowing why.

I'm also making the assumption that what the OP labels as wrong... (read more)

Elle N10

Which claim are you questioning here? That they are ad-hominem *or* that ad-hominems will make the person defensive *or*that making someone defensive makes them less likely to listen to reason?

As far as what I'm assuming, well... have you ever tried telling someone that they are being stupid or dishonest during an argument, or had someone do this to you? It pretty much always goes down as I described, at least in my experience.

There are certainly situations when it's appropriate, and I do it with close friends and appreciate it when they call out... (read more)

1Pattern
I am asking how your comments are related to the post. 1. The OP proposes that 'wrongness is caused by stupidity and dishonesty'. You say this reasoning is counterproductive because 2. 'telling someone they are being stupid or dishonest during an argument is a bad idea'. I consider the first claim so obvious it isn't clear why it is being mentioned (unless there is a goal of iterating in text everything that is known). I consider the second claim more useful, but their connection in this context is not. You seem to be making the assumption 'someone is wrong because of X -> therefore I should say they are wrong because of X', as part of your rebuttal, despite believing the opposite.
Elle N30

If you make someone defensive, they are incentivized to defend their character, rather than their argument. This makes it less likely that you will hear convincing arguments from them, even if they have them.

Also, speech can affect people and have consequences, such as passing on information or changing someones mood (e.g. making them defensive). For that matter, thinking is a behavior I can choose to engage in that can have consequences, e.g. if I lie to myself it will influence later perceptions and behavior, if I do a mental calculation then I have gai... (read more)

Elle N10

What other reasonable purposes of arguing do you see, other than the one in the footnote? I am confused by your comment.

Elle N10
I guess that's possible, but why is that my problem?

Why are you arguing with someone if you don't want to learn from their point of view or share your point of view? Making someone defensive is counter productive to both goals.

Is there a reasonable third goal? (Maybe to convince an audience? Although, including an audience is starting to add more to the scenario 'suppose you are arguing with someone.')

2Zack_M_Davis
Not obvious to me that defensiveness on their part interferes with learning from them? Providing information to the audience would be the main other reason, but the attitude I'm trying to convey more broadly is that I think I'm just ... not a consequentialist about speech? (Speech is thought! Using thinking in order to select actions becomes a lot more complicated if thinking is itself construed as an action! This can't literally be the complete answer, but I don't know how to solve embedded agency!)
Elle N20

This seems like a potentially counter productive heuristic. If the conclusion is that the person who is 'wrong' is either 'stupid' or 'dishonest' you are establishing an antogonistic tone to the interaction.

There are several other arrows pointing to disagreement (perception of 'wrongness'), including different interpretations of the question or different information about the problem. Making it easier to feel certain that someone is either 'stupid or dishonest' doesn't seem like a helpful way to move... (read more)

1Pattern
Why are you assuming one would share such observations?

you are establishing an antogonistic [sic] tone to the interaction

Yes, that's right, but I don't care about not establishing an antagonistic tone to the interaction. I care about achieving the map that reflects the territory. To be sure, different maps can reflect different aspects of the same territory, and words can be used in many ways depending on context! So it would certainly be possible to write a slightly different blog post making more-or-less the same point and proposing the same causal graph, but labeling the parent nodes something like "Syst

... (read more)