All of Lyyce's Comments + Replies

Lyyce00

That's true if you live in solidly blue or red state, but then why not vote for a third party candidate more aligned to your convictions? Or not voting at all, saving time?

gjm200

I think pwno is proposing that we do it precisely because it doesn't align with our convictions. (He might advise Trump supporters to vote for Clinton.)

I'm sure I remember reading, but can't now find, an anecdote from Eliezer back in the OB days: he was with a group of people at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, where there's this tradition of writing prayers on pieces of paper and sticking them in cracks in the wall, so as a test of the sincerity of his unbelief he wrote "I pray for my parents to die" and stuck that in the wall. Same principle.

(Per... (read more)

Lyyce00

Maybe the Placebo effect, all medications have affect the patient (even if it does nothing) so you can not prove a medicament does not work without a control group using Placebo to make the claim falsifiable.

0ChristianKl
I don't think the placebo effect has something directly to do with falsifiablty. As experiment that compares treatment A against the Gold standard treatment B makes a falsifiable claim in the absense of placebo control.
Lyyce20

I'm not sure an intelligence explosion can happen without significant speed or computational power improvements.

I guess it boils down to what happens if you let human-level intelligence self-modify without modifying the hardware (a.k.a how much human intelligence is optimised). Until now the ratio results to computational power used in significantly in favor of humans compared to I.A but the later is improving fast, and you don't need an I.A to be as versatile as human. Is there any work on what the limit on optimisation for intelligence?

It looks like a n... (read more)

1Kaj_Sotala
It's unclear, but in narrow AI we've seen software get smarter even in cases where the hardware is kept constant, or even made worse. For example, the top chess engine of 2014 beats a top engine from 2006, even when you give the 2014 engine 2% the computing power of the 2006 engine. That would seem to suggest that an intelligence explosion without hardware improvements might be possible, at least in principle. In practice I would expect an intelligence explosion to lead to hardware improvements as well, though. No reason for the AI to constrain itself just to the software side.
Lyyce30

Found the ideas in the article nicely organised, and the paragraph about how EA is financed was a good idea.

Reading it left me a very different feeling compared to your older articles who tended to push my "crank detector" buttons, is that just you "improving" your style (by my standard) or rather an adaptation to a different venue?

0Gleb_Tsipursky
Glad you liked this piece more! The style is more an adaptation to a different venue - TIME is more high-brow than The Huffington Post or Lifehack, so I was writing in a more high-brow style. I guess you fall within the style "Overton Window" for this style :-) More broadly, my goal, as well as that of other people involved with Intentional Insights, is to aim for the style that would connect with the audience of each venue in order to spread Rationality and Effective Altruism ideas most effectively by bridging the inference gap with each audience. So I'm not surprised that more LWs would connect with the style expressed in this piece, as most LWs tend to be quite a bit above the level of style of the average Lifehack reader.
Lyyce20

Idea that might or might be relevant depending on how smart / advanced your group is.

You could introduce some advanced statistical methods and use it to derive results from everyday life, a la Bayes and mammography.

If you can show some interesting or counter intuitive results (that you can't obtain with intuition) it would give the affective experience you want, and if they want to do scientific research, the more they know about statistics the better.

Statistics are also a good entry door for rationalist thinking.

Lyyce20

I am aware that very negative consequences are possible, even likely, especially if you go the whole way (aka save everyone at any cost). My stance is that the current situation is not optimal, and that trying incremental / small scale changes to see whether it makes the situation any better (or worse). Admittedly the ways it could go wrong are multiples.

If you give incentives to unproductive people to become productive, but you don't give incentives to productive people to remain productive, the winning strategy for people is to have swings of producti

... (read more)
Lyyce00

Do you think that trying could have considerable costs? Russia tried communism, that... didn't turn out well.

It could, incremental changes, or doing it on a smaller case would mitigate the costs. A "partial" basic income already exist in several European countries, where even when not contributing to society you are given enough to subsist. The results are not too bad so far.

Why new? That's precisely how the current equilibrium works (where advantages == money).

You are right, it would just be different jobs having the most value

Why capit

... (read more)
0Lumifer
What non-socialist societies which unconditionally provided subsistence to all its members, sufficient to live on, do you know other than a few oil-rich sheikhdoms?
Lyyce00

Maybe if you'd give subsistence to everyone (basic income for example) and let people produce in exchange for "more", the system would still be viable.

And do you have reasons to believe that would be so -- besides "maybe"?

No, that's why I'd like to see it tried. Nordic countries seems to be headed in that direction, we'll see how it goes.

Well, until their toilet clogged and stayed clogged because most plumbers became painters and the rest just went fishing. And until they got sick and found out that the line to see one of the f

... (read more)
0Lumifer
Do you think that trying could have considerable costs? Russia tried communism, that... didn't turn out well. Why new? That's precisely how the current equilibrium works (where advantages == money). You didn't answer the question. Why capitalistic? In your black-and-white picture that would be true for all human societies except for socialist ones. Under capitalism you could at least live off your capital if/when you have some. So why would anyone come to unclog your toilet?
Lyyce-20

In the context of a capitalist society there is a common assumption that "the market" will automagically generate the supply

In the current system people produce goods for their subsistence. Maybe if you'd give subsistence to everyone (basic income for example) and let people produce in exchange for "more", the system would still be viable.

The advantages are nobody left out, more flexibility in your work, people doing what they like (more artist and stuff), not having to work to survive (that counts for some). It would increase the ha... (read more)

0Viliam
The words "loss of production" are too abstract, so it feels like it is no big deal. But it depends on what specifically it means. Maybe it's slower internet connection, fewer computer games, and more expensive Coca Cola. Or maybe it's higher mortality in hospitals, higher retirement age, and more poverty. I'm saying this because I think people usually only imagine the former, but in real life it's more likely to be both. If you give incentives to unproductive people to become productive, but you don't give incentives to productive people to remain productive, the winning strategy for people is to have swings of productivity. Generally, whenever you have a cool idea that would work well for the current situation, you should think about how the situation will change when people start adapting to the new rules and optimizing for them. Because sooner or later someone will.
0Lumifer
Nope, that would be true in a subsistence economy. You don't want to live in one :-/ In the current system people produce goods to be exchanged for money which money will be used to buy other goods. And do you have reasons to believe that would be so -- besides "maybe"? Well, until their toilet clogged and stayed clogged because most plumbers became painters and the rest just went fishing. And until they got sick and found out that the line to see one of the few doctors left is a couple of months. And until the buses stopped running because being a bus mechanic is not such a great job and there are not enough guys who are willing to do it just for fun... Of course. See e.g. the Soviet Union or Mao's China: being unemployed was a crime. If you can't find a job, the state has a nice labour camp all ready for you. In money or bullets?
Lyyce-10

Thank you for the feedback. Unfortunately it looks like I have not been able to express myself clearly.

It was not supposed to explain anything but rather gives one point I find not stressed enough, I am aware that it does not sum up politics or gives a full distinction between political side.

2ChristianKl
I don't think that the general class of posts "Political idea XY with whom I just came up isn't mentioned enough in the venues I read" makes a good LW post.
Lyyce-20

That's a normative, not a descriptive claim.

Fair enough, this is only my own biased opinion. It is indeed generic, I am still unsure if my position should be "mostly not responsible" or "not responsible at all" depending on which model about free will is correct.

For how long?

Wealth is produced, and the money do not disappear (does it actually? my understanding of economy is pretty basic) when you give it out since they spend it as consumer the same way the people you take it from would do.

I don't see anything "running out" in the few socialist countries out there.

4Viliam
The money usually does not literally disappear, but what happens if you have too much money in circulation and not enough things to buy is that the money loses value, i.e. things become more expensive. (Attempts to fix this problem by regulating prices typically result in literally empty shops after the few cheap things are sold.) It is related to inflation, but the whole story is complicated. There are many countries in eastern Europe that once had "socialist" in their names and now don't. And they happen to be among the poorest ones in Europe. The "running out of money" meant that over decades their standards of living were getting far behind the western Europe. You probably mean Sweden (people who talk about "socialist" countries not running out of money usually mean Sweden, because it's quite difficult to find another example). I don't know much about Sweden to explain what happened there, but I suspect they have must less "socialism" than the former Soviet bloc. (For the purposes of a rational debate it would probably be better to stop using words like "socialism" and instead talk about more specific things, such as: high taxes, planned economy, mandatory employment, censorship of media, dictatorship of one political party, universal health care, basic income, etc. These are things typically described as "socialist" but they don't have to appear together.)
-2Lumifer
If "not at all" won't you have issues with e.g. the criminal justice system? Money is just convenient tokens, you can't consume money. What you want is value in the form of valuable (that is, desirable) goods and services. Most goods and services disappear when you consume them: if you eat a carrot, that carrot is gone. When you give out (free) money you generate demand for goods and services. In the context of a capitalist society there is a common assumption that "the market" will automagically generate the supply (that is, actual goods and services) to satisfy the demand. However if you are not in the context of a capitalist society any more, you can't assume that the supply will be there to meet the demand -- see the example of the Soviet Union, etc. When you redistribute money, people use that money to buy stuff. Someone has to produce the actual stuff and moving money around will not, by itself, lead to actual stuff being produced. If no one is growing carrots, there will be none to be had, free money or no free money.
Lyyce00

a common argument is

It might well be a common argument, but the correct question is whether it's a valid argument.

I do think it is a valid arguments (I might be wrong of course), many studies have highlighted the effect of education, parents, genes, environment, etc. So I find it unfair to blame someone for its problems since there are too many element to consider to give an accurate judgement.

Using a less sympathetic expression this is also known as the forced redistribution of wealth.

I don't like the idea of forced redistribution of wealth (t... (read more)

-4Lumifer
Yes, but let me emphasize the important part of that argument: "then he should not be held responsible and left alone". That's a normative, not a descriptive claim. It is also entirely generic: every single human being should not be held responsible -- right? For how long? You're assuming there is a magical neverending pot of money from which you can simple grab and give out. What happens in a few years when you run out?
Lyyce10

(for the ideological turing test)

I have tried to make my argument as neutral as possible, giving both sides of the arguments and avoiding depreciating any,

Let's try from both directions then (personally am a leftist).

Left side, I think so, I definitely think societal influence (amongst other things out of the individual power such as genetics) trumps individual choices, I also saw this opinion amongst friends and intellectuals so I am not alone in this, not everybody on the left think like this though.

Right side, my model of the right is not as good as I'd like, but i have seen it expressed in various places. Again it does not concern all the rightists neither is the main point for everyone.

Lyyce00

Apparently I have not made my point clear enough. I am indeed simplifying, "everything is due do society" and "everything is due to individuals" are the both ends but you can be anywhere in the spectrum. This is also only one point among others, probably not the main one, defining identity politics (as you told it), and surely not every leftist/rightist will have the view I give him or is even concerned by the concept.

If i take your example about the person on government benefits with no skills, a common argument is that the fact that h... (read more)

2Dagon
The reason to think in terms of ideological Turing test is that "opposite" is almost never correct. Almost nothing can be usefully simplified to a simple one-dimensional aspect where both ends are reasonable and common. In the mulidimensional space of different personal influences (genetics, upbringing, current social environment, governmental and non-governmental support and constraint networks), there are likely multiple points of belief in the balance of choice vs non-choice. It's just not useful to characterize one cluster as "opposite" of the other. Personally, I find the three-axis model fairly compelling - it's not that different political leanings come from different points on a dimension, it's that they are focusing on completely different dimensions . Progressives tend to think of oppressor/oppressed, Conservatives about Barbarism/Civilisation, and Libertarians about Coercion/Freedom. This does get accepted (to some extent - it's still massively oversimple) by both liberal and conservative friends of mine, so passes at least one level of test.
0Lumifer
It might well be a common argument, but the correct question is whether it's a valid argument. Using a less sympathetic expression this is also known as the forced redistribution of wealth. There is an issue, though, well summed up by the quote usually attributed to Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money".
Lyyce-10

Sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you are talking about, could you develop your point?

4Vaniver
One way of thinking about this is "would my enemies, if reading this, think it is a description of their beliefs written by an ally?" I'm not sure of the relevance in this instance.
Lyyce-20

One major difference between left and right is the stance on personal responsibility.

Leftist intellectuals (tends to) think society influence trumps individual capabilities, so people are not responsible for their misfortunes and deserve to be helped. Whereas Rightist have the opposite view (related).

This seems trivial, especially in hindsight. But I hardly ever see it mentioned and in most discussions the right side treat the left as foolish and irrational and the left thinks right people are self-interested and evil rather than simply having a differen... (read more)

2Val
Still, it would be very wrong to describe rightists as thinking that everyone should starve who can't support themselves. Many people on the political right also practice and/or believe in charity.
3ChristianKl
I downvoted the post for it being a political post on LW that tries to explain complex politics with a simple model.
5Stingray
Would this description pass an ideological Turing test?
Lyyce00

Group are very fluid entities, and can be defined by pretty much any parameter, which make your statement a bit vague. But even without considering that, there are shortcomings in your theory.

On an individual point of view, being biased towards one group will reduce your own possibilities, it will also reduce the incentives for your group to adapt and better itself. To be fair, it has nothing do with your theory, but still is worth saying imo

Your proposition could also be interpreted has a prisoner dilemna, with each group as a player, not being biased is ... (read more)

0Val
I agree with this view. And as I was not claiming that it would be good to be too much biased and always (or too often) defect. However, if there is a general tendency of how often / how likely do all the groups defect and cooperate, then one group who pledges to never ever defect no matter what, will see that the other groups will defect against it, solely because they know they will always win. The solution of the prisoner's dilemma requires the possibility, or at least the ability for you to defect, even if you don't choose it. Otherwise your opponent will always defect.
Lyyce50

If one is perfectly rational (omniscience would even be better), yes, otherwise I do not think it is a good idea for a lot of reasons. Just on the top of my head :

It is very hard to be accurate, let alone objective, when analysing "impact on society" or "quality of character", and the result is dependent on the criteria used.

When there is a big variability within a group (race, genre or whatever), statistics are not very useful and you should end up with a better model by getting to know the person.

Anchoring effect : People are bad at u... (read more)

Lyyce30

I am confused about free will. I tried to read about it (notably from the sequences) but am still not convinced.

I make choices, all the time, sure, but why do I chose one solution in particular?

My answer would be the sum of my knoledge and past experiences (nurture) and my genome (nature), with quantum randomness playing a role as well, but I can't see where does free will intervene.

It feels like there is something basic I don't understand, but I can't grasp it.

0Zubon
You've stated compatibilism, and from that perspective free will tends to look trivial ("you can choose things") or like magical thinking. Many people have wanted there to be something special about the act of choosing or making decisions. This is necessary for several moral theories, as they demand a particular sense in which you are responsible for your actions that does not obtain if all your actions have prior causes. This is often related to theories that call for a soul, some sort of you apart from your body, brain, genetics, environment, and randomness. You have a sense of self and many people want that to be very important, as you think of yourself as important (to you, if no one else). You may have read Douglas Adams and recall him describing the fundamental question of philosophy as what life is all about when you really get down to it, really, I mean really. A fair amount of philosophy can be understood as people tacking "really" onto things and considering that a better question. "Sure you choose, but do you choose what you choose to choose? Is our will really free? I mean really, fundamentally free, when you take away everything else, really?"
2Dagon
That sum you speak of is encoded in a massive biological calculator called a brain. Free will is the introspective module of that computer as it examines it's own calculations, and that data affects the state of the network to be part of future calculations.
6mwengler
Your insight is pretty consistent with a lot of philosophers, including my own personal favorite Daniel Dennett. Even if there is a pseudorandom number generator (or a quantum random number generator which might not be pseudo), that our "choices" would be random in this way does not really feel like what people want free will to mean. My reading of Dennett is that our "choices" arise from the law-like operation of our minds, which may be perfectly predictable (if there is no randomness only pseudorandmness of classical thermal noise) or might be as predicatable as any other physical phenomenon within the limits of quantum unpredictability (if you accept that explanation for what is seen in experiments such as two slit and so on). The thing that amazes me about "free will" is that the "inputs" to what our brain does include the previous "outputs" of what our brain does. So I have decided that obviously if I believe that will power exists, the choices my brain makes in the future will be more likely consistent with what I consciously want my brain to do. So in some sense, free will does exist, well almost, if I get myself believing I have choices my brain will fall more often in the direction of choosing what I consciously want. There is no substitute for reading Dennett in my opinion, and it is not an easy thing to do.
7Armarren
Let's try a car analogy for a compatibilist position, as I understand it: there is car, and why does it move? Because it has an engine and wheels and other parts all arranged in a specific pattern. There is no separate "carness" that makes it move ("automobileness" if you will), it is the totality of its parts that makes it a car. Will is the same, it is the totality of your identity which creates a process by which choices are made. This doesn't mean there is no such thing any more than the fact that a car is composed of identifiable parts means that no car exists, it is just not a basic indivisible thing.
Lyyce60

I am somewhat new to LW, so I only know the "eternal september" period.

Even tough the contributions and the comments do not have the same quality as the old content, there are still (in my opinion) some interesting posts and discussions, so I'd prefer not archive LW.

The use of LW as focal point would really interest me since I am a bit lost in the diaspora, the other two points are also good and deserve to be implemented.