All of math_viking's Comments + Replies

So then the probability you assign to their ability to actually affect that change can be assigned a correspondingly small, nonzero number, even if you don't want to assign 0 probability.

0DragonGod
I have no counter argument to this.

I think this version of Pascal's mugging could be rejected if you think that "infinite negative utility" is not a phrase that means anything, without appealing to probability of 0.

However, I still accept 0 and 1 as valid probabilities, because that is how probability is defined in the mathematical structures and proofs that underpin all of the probability theory we use, and as far as I know no other foundation of probability (up to isophorism)has been rigorously defined and explored.

The fact that measure#measure_space) is nonnegative, instead o... (read more)

I'll take a look, thanks!

Either way is fine with me, but if you can express in any way what you think "average" is for some of these skills, I would like to know because now I'm really curious.

Thanks for taking so much time to keep responding to a fairly random commenter!

What statement, specifically, would we be betting on? It's certainly plausible that I'm underestimating the difficulty in getting an entire group to above these standards in comparison to getting one person. Though, I think the main issue may be a difference in what we perceive as average, rather than a model of how hard learning these skills is.

0Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
I spent five minutes trying to operationalize, but I couldn't come up with anything that seemed workable. For now, we'll just proceed knowing that at least one of us is wrong. =)

. And while competence does tend to cluster (e.g. "G"), so the picture's not quite as bleak as the second half of this sentence, once you've got a dozen different domains and shooting to be above the 50% mark in all of them, you're looking at a person who's approximating one in four thousand,

I don't think these skills are anywhere near independent. It's also not obvious that they're normally distributed. And, being above the 50% mark in a dozen skills by coincidence being unlikely does not at all tell you how hard it is to gain skills if you p... (read more)

0Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
I'm plausibly interested in betting a few hundred dollars against you, especially if (as seems likely, given your confidence) you were to bet $1000 against my $250 or something like that. If I imagine the hundred closest people I know uttering the above, I think all but one or two of them are wrong/overconfident.

Your original comment, though harsh, at least contained some useful insights. Don't ruin that by posting comments that are nothing more than 6 lines of insults that no one wants to read.

I do somewhat agree with your objections to the list of specific skills attained after a year. I had hoped that the large word DRAFT at the top, plus the repeated statements that the whole plan was to iterate, and that I didn't expect to be able to figure out the right stuff on the first try, would've clued you in to the fact that I, too, am aware that the list is inadequate. Do you have specific suggestions for replacements? Keep in mind, the hard problem is to balance things-that-will-be-generally-useful-for-a-medium-sized-group-of-people against the fa

... (read more)
6Duncan Sabien (Deactivated)
The problem seems to be to be the tradeoff between going deep and going wide, with the added complexity that going deep on the wrong thing seems strictly worse than going wide, and so we're defaulting to going wide where there's uncertainty. Put another way, it's unlikely that any of those specific skills are going to be particularly important to any of our longest-term goals, but it also seems counterproductive to just sit there thinking about which direction to go in. I'm usually not the biggest expert in the room, but I usually am the most generally competent in terms of being able to fill holes or solve whatever problem crops up, and it's because I have a habit of just constantly churning and picking up new skills and methods and heuristics wherever I go. I suspect that others would benefit from a similar habit, in particular because once "the right skill" does come along, you have both the affordance to start learning it and a variety of experiences allowing you to learn quickly and efficiently. That's a claim. Not necessarily supported, but reasonable, I think, and worth trying out. I note that I disagree that it's easy to break averages in all of these things at once. People who don't actually check their abilities against a standard tend to be wildly overconfident, and people tend to underestimate how long it will take them to learn X or accomplish Y; these things are solidly documented. And while competence does tend to cluster (e.g. "G"), so the picture's not quite as bleak as the second half of this sentence, once you've got a dozen different domains and shooting to be above the 50% mark in all of them, you're looking at a person who's approximating one in four thousand, and when you try to get a whole group to hit that mark, the challenge is pretty real. I wouldn't be surprised if most people have most of this easy, but I think you're not fully grokking the difficulty of making everybody baseline competent in all of these domains. For instance, you no

I rather forgot about this due to being accidentally logged out of this account and not realizing so until later. If I were to try my hand at this, what would be the best place to see what's already been done (without having to click through arbital) and submit my contributions?

1Alexei
This will take a long time to load, but it's comprehensive: https://arbital.com/explore/math/

If you're still looking for content, I could be persuaded to start (slowly) working on some set theory/analysis concepts.

1Alexei
I'm not into persuading people. :) If you want to write, go for it. I still think Arbital is a really good platform for writing up math explanations.

I thought contributors here tended to keep in mind ideas like Chesterton's Fence and "building institutions is hard." But I think it's important to recognize that just because people should have the right do something, doesn't mean it's good to encourage that thing. People shouldn't feel forced or trapped in unhappy marriages, but it's also not good for kids (particularly poor kids) and in some cases even the parents if we provide incentives to have lots of single parent homes.

Would this be a sort of reverse privileging the hypothesis? We can only weigh probabilities for theories that have been brought to our attention.

The list of controls in the "prison reduces lifespan" study seems a little on the short side--race, age, gender, education, and the crime. It's fine if that's all that was available, but if you had some other data as well, I would expect to see the life span reduction reduced as well. Particularly if the major causes of death are homicide and drug overdose right after getting, a strong linear relationship between time spent in prison and life expectancy seems weird. I'm not sure how that would work, causally.

But mostly I agree with chron--you can't just completely ignore the possibility that the existence of prisons reduces crime.

This post strikes me as odd.

The "insufficient quantity" definition matches both what I have seen in economics textbooks, and the common definition of the word. The fact that then choices must be made follows from this definition. If the standard conception follows from your definition, they are equivalent, and I would use the one that matches standard terminology. If it doesn't, I would say that makes the first preferable (as the relevant fact is derived from the definition).

In the paraphrased or hypothetical exchanges above, OP at least made a claim that could be evaluated, and the other commenters dismissed even the possibility that they had anything worthwhile to say for pretty poor reasons. They didn't make any actual argument to give any charity to. "What experience do you have with economics?" and "what solutions do you propose?" are perfectly valid questions, but the other commenters follow-up doesn't continue the discussion, it seeks to end it.

0TheAncientGeek
The OP made a comment that is evaluable, and comes .it as irrelevant when read uncharitably: no one is literally printing money. "What experience do you have with economics?" could charitably be read as the argument "you need to understand economics to have a worthwhile opinion on quantitative easing"

Sure, but I think the follow-up responses make it clear the other commenter isn't looking for a real discussion.

0[anonymous]
I think you are right, the follow-up responses are what indicate the fallacy intention (conscious or not).

I think these examples represent different sorts of fallacies. In the first, the person is making a variant on appeal to authority. In the latter, it's more like the Nirvana fallacy.

However, in either case the commenter doesn't seem worth arguing with. Especially if it's a random person on the internet.

Since your claims arent flawless,

What does that mean? I would expect no one's claims to be flawless, but even if OP claimed the sky is green, claiming that he is wrong because he's not a physicist is still wrong.

and their responses arent completely invalid

They seem pretty much like obvious examples of fallacies to me.

Your suggestions are possible ways to segue from what OP said into a better discussion, but the replies quoted or paraphrased above aren't conducive to such a discussion.

0LawrenceC
Who the OP is does affect the prior probability that he is wrong. If the majority of economics viewpoints held by non-economists is wrong (which is a big if), then the commentators would be justified in assigning near-zero amount of credence in what he's saying. If the OP presented a detailed, technical argument in favor of his positions, then this would "screen out" OP's level of experience. But barring such an argument, the commentators may have a point. That being said, the average internet commentator may not be the best conversation partner.
1ChristianKl
Let's say you debate with multiple people "Why is the sky blue and not green"? (a) A philosopher (b) A linguist (c) A physicist (d) A five year old child All those debates are different. It's very useful to ask at the beginning of the debate where the other person is common from when you want to target arguments.
1TheAncientGeek
For some value of wrong. But the claim that the Fed is literally printing money js also wrong, for some value of wrong. Its like youre saying one side in the discussion deserves charity, and the other doesn't. Random Commentator's comment was not "You are not an economist, so you are wrong", it was "Are you an economist?". That can .be read as a legitimate concern about understanding the topic. Jumping on people for making "obvious fallacies" that actually arent explicitly stated at all , is probably a reflection of bias on the part of the jump-.er. (The Ancient Geeks Law: Any comment by anybody in any discussion will look like an obvious fallacy under a sufficiently uncharitable interpretation) ....when read without the charity you are extending to the OPs claims. What does that mean? Maybe you have decided that even if charity is extended, or middle ground sought, nothing good will come of it. But have you tested that, or is it all in your head?

"(though you can make an argument that being hated by Kim Jong-un is a net benefit to a US politician). "

Yeah, sure, that works too, though then the 'threat of being nuked' seems like a red herring.

"In the case of my example, the market participants all genuinely believe that there is no causal effect of the election results. However, they are not ignoring it: The contracts are just written such that participants are not asked to bet on the causal effect of the election results, but on conditional probabilities."

That makes a lot more sense than the original post, IMO. I'm still trying to process it entirely though, and figure out how useful such an example is. Thanks for your responses.

Why are we told that Kim has been saying how much he hates Hillary if the probability of the US being nuked is the same whether Hillary or Jeb is elected (conditional on Kim being in power)? And why would the probability of Hillary being elected go up if Kim is still in power, in this situation? Even if the actual probability of Kim nuking is the same whether Hillary or Jeb is in office, his statements should lead us to believe otherwise. (I realize the latter has no effect on the analysis--if we switch the probabilities of jeb and hillary being elected in... (read more)

0Anders_H
The reason I told you that he hates Hillary, is that I wanted to establish Kim as a common cause of the election results and whether the US is nuked. I agree that this should have been stated more clearly. I also agree that the probability of Hillary being elected should probably go up if Kim is still in power (though you can make an argument that being hated by Kim Jong-un is a net benefit to a US politician). I will update the post tomorrow to make this clearer. In the absence of other information, the setup would lead us to believe that Hillary being elected would increase the probability of a nuclear attack. However, one of the reasons I introduced Laplace's demon was to make it clear that this is not the case, and to make it clear that all market participants are in agreement on this issue. If you have a proposed estimator of a causal quantity and you are wondering if it is valid, one simple sanity check is to assume the causal null hypothesis and find out whether the estimator will be zero. If it is not necessarily zero, the estimator is biased. That is essentially what I tried to do with this example. In the case of my example, the market participants all genuinely believe that there is no causal effect of the election results. However, they are not ignoring it: The contracts are just written such that participants are not asked to bet on the causal effect of the election results, but on conditional probabilities.

Is there a summary of the timeline in this example? In particular, when do we know if Kim is overthrown? In order for it to be the confounder you describe, we must know before the election--but then simply conditioning on the election result gives the same chance of being nuked in either case (1/2 if kim is still in power and 0 otherwise).

Maybe I'm not following, but the example is not intuitive to me, and seems contrived.

0Anders_H
Defining confounders in general is tricky, I won't attempt to do that. However, I will provide an example of the most relevant timeline where this problem occurs: You are trading the prediction market at time point t. You expect that at some future timepoint k>t, some event (the confounder) will occur which will affect your estimate of both the probability of the decision at time l>k and the outcome at time m>l. In such a situation, you will bet on the conditional prediction markets based on your beliefs about conditional probabilities, not based on your beliefs about causal quantities. I provided a simple example where Kim being in power was the only confounder. It was designed such that simply conditioning on Kim being in power would give the correct answer. This was just to illustrate the problem; in real life, it will be more complicated because not everyone will agree on what the confounders are and what needs to be conditioned on.