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All of ndm25's Comments + Replies

Religion's Claim to be Non-Disprovable
ndm2500

Words written on paper count very well when we have a decent reason to expect that they are not utterly fabricated. The opposite is true in this case. Unless you claim this particular experiment is somehow distinct from all the other parts of the Bible which never happened.

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2bigjeff5
Earliest "account". Since the most popular book in the world contains this account, I'd say questioning its existence is pretty stupid. The test given in the account that Elijah supposedly performed would, with only slight tweaking*, be a completely valid scientific experiment. Now, whether the events in the account actually happened is an entirely different question (and I'd agree with you there). But you'd be foolish to say the account itself doesn't exist, which is what you and ed have thus far said. Words on paper are extremely strong evidence the account exists (it exists on the paper). The fact that I'm talking about the account is pretty strong evidence that the account exists as well (it exists in my mind). *As has been noted by others, he went over-board when setting up his side of the experiment. To get the most relevant results he should have kept both altars exactly the same instead of dousing his lambs with water. Of course, he was doing science accidentally, so he didn't know better.
Reasons for being rational
ndm2500

Try to focus on the main point in the abstract: if delusion X is low-status and rejected by experts and high-status people (even if it might be fairly widespread among the common folk), while delusion Y is instead accepted by them, so much that by asserting non-Y you risk coming off as a crackpot, should we be more worried about X or Y, in terms of both the idealistic pursuit of truth and the practical problems that follow?

Y, of course. Perhaps I should have started out by saying that while I agree that what you say is possible, I don't know if it desc... (read more)

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Reasons for being rational
ndm2530

There are many other questions where the prevailing views of academic experts, intellectuals, and other high-status shapers of public opinion, are, in my opinion, completely delusional.

Name three?

edit: I find that he has already named three, and two heuristics for determining whether an academic field is full of bunk or not, here. I commend him on this article. While I remain unconvinced on the general strategy outlined, I now understand the sort of field he is discussing and find that, on the specifics, I tentatively agree.

I strongly recommend rea... (read more)

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0Vladimir_M
Well, as I pointed out in my other comments, unless I answered your challenges with essays of enormous length, my answer would consist of multiple assertions without supporting evidence that sound outlandish on the face of it. Remember that we are talking about delusions that are presently shared by the experts and/or respectable high-status people. Note that you should accept my point even if we completely disagree on what these high-status delusions are, as long as we agree that there are some, whatever they might be. Try to focus on the main point in the abstract: if delusion X is low-status and rejected by experts and high-status people (even if it might be fairly widespread among the common folk), while delusion Y is instead accepted by them, so much that by asserting non-Y you risk coming off as a crackpot, should we be more worried about X or Y, in terms of both the idealistic pursuit of truth and the practical problems that follow?
2CharlieSheen
Wow answering that challenge might seriously kill some minds. I suggest you two PM it out.
Malice, Stupidity, or Egalité Irréfléchie?
ndm2520

Can you distinguish thoughtless egalitarianism from stupidity a little more? Stupidity seems to me to mean just that sort of thoughtlessness.

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2lionhearted (Sebastian Marshall)
Good question. "Stupidity" can mean a variety of subtly different things in English. I was drawing to a distinction between "poor judgment" and "never having consciously thought about it at all."
5fburnaby
To me, stupidity can apply to both types of thoughtlessness as well, but I feel, a moral difference between these two types of stupidity ("stupid" vs. "unreflective"): If people were being stupid, but knew that their stupidity was causing problems you could condemn them for not being willing to learn more. When people accuse others of being racist, they frequently say "that's ignorant". In this case, ignorance is considered inexcusable. The offender hasn't done their due diligence. On the other hand, if people aren't even aware that they have some shortcoming that they should be alleviating, i.e. by being unreflective, it's harder to hold them morally accountable. It seems to be normal and perfectly acceptable in modern society not to have ever considered the reasons for your values in the cases that lionhearted brings up (such as junk food, drinking and sleeping).
Belief in Belief vs. Internalization
ndm2510

Is that a knee-jerk insult pointed at religion? If so, you're the AI Professor who takes cheap shots at Republicans.

If not, apologies, I must have missed the point.

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0[anonymous]
Not remotely, and that labeling strikes me as decidedly out of place and mildly objectionable.
Your Rationality is My Business
ndm25-10

Oh, I see what you mean. You're saying that there's not really any disutility created by you shunning them, and there is disutility created by having to talk to them. (I think)

I think that one should avoid penalizing another for their beliefs when other methods of persuasion are available, but did not take that to the next logical step and say "when rational methods (argument / debate / discussion) are not available, should I attempt to convert someone to my point of view anyway?"

I feel this is the question you are asking. If I am wrong, corre... (read more)

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Your Rationality is My Business
ndm2520

While I am, clearly, not Eliezer, I believe that his position as expressed would oppose such sanctions. He seems to want all players of the game to be rational, and the introduction of alternate forms of persuasion (social shunning / economic sanctions) would be an unfair advantage to his side of the argument.

A rationalist shouldn't want to win, they should want to be right. Forms of persuasion outside of pure rational argument contribute only to the first goal, not the latter.

(could be wrong, am new here)

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1Mass_Driver
Well, you're partially right. Eliezer says all the time that rationalists ought to win, and he even uses the italics. Of course, that's an argument from authority. On my own authority, I also think rationalists should win; it strikes me as irrational to be correct about a belief at the cost of not achieving your preferred state of the world. Surely there are more important things in life than what I personally have going on in my head in terms of abstract propositions. And, yes, to a certain extent, persuading an annoying maverick to conform by shunning her at parties might interfere with my ability to reach correct beliefs. The question is, though, isn't that a sacrifice worth making? If I am still perfectly willing to debate this person in private and listen to her point of view, how much of her side of the truth am I really losing? If I attempt to restrain my social boycotts to those who appear to me to be clearly (a) factually incorrect and (b) making logically invalid arguments, how often am I likely to register a false positive and deprive the public of my opponent's true and valid points of view? I'm curious what you think about all this. By the way, welcome to Less Wrong!