All of noonehomer's Comments + Replies

That would work... but the Chareidim don't actually believe in their defenses (they flee places getting bombed and leave the soldiers to defend people's lives), nor are these defenses backed up in any way by halacha (they're misinterpreted that one text they use as a source). Also, they don't allow anyone in their community to go into the army. Ever. And they don't let non-Chareidim join them in their learning for defense, either.

0Username
Yes. What I wrote was a steelman of their positions, and must be taken as such. They themselves do not have such sophisticated mental models of the world. The answer to why they hate the IDF and the state of Israel is simply one of tribal affiliation. <> [Edit: Also see point 3 in iarwain1's linked comment. It explains the hareidi attitude to all this.]
1iarwain1
I suspect noonehomer's correct in part and that the chareidim don't actually believe everything that Username says. Also, I don't think it's true they don't let anyone go to the army (or at least it didn't use to be), just that it's discouraged. If anyone's interested in my own thoughts, I posted them in a comment here. Just look for the comment by iarwain. Sorry, you may need to understand some hebrew terms to understand it. But then again, you'll need to understand hebrew terms to read Username's comment as well.

Almost certainly I can. But right now I'm in high school, so I don't know that many people who qualify.

Um... assur means you can't do it. It's not less severe than "forbidden", I don't think. It literally means "bound". It's important to note that it doesn't mean something's morally wrong, but in this case, independent of the prohibition (non-literal translation of the noun form, issur) the act of reading foreign philosophy without knowledge of the corresponding arguments in one's own can cause stupid questions, not smart ones, and is considered to be wrong, not just forbidden (in my father's circles, anyhow).

2iarwain1
I commend you for your self-control in not telling other people about these issues. I'd also add that for many people who aren't the intellectual type, you'd be doing them a major disservice by exposing them to arguments that can easily cause them massive psychological stress issues. As I know from personal experience with people who that happened to. It might be worth thinking about switching to a different high school where there are more intellectual-type people around. Also, if you go to Yeshiva University for college you'll find plenty of smart people, both staff and students, who are quite educated in foreign philosophies.

I don't know about "frum". Badly educated and mistakenly chumradik is more like it.

The hardest part of reading things l'havin ul'horos is that I can't recommend them to anyone else because it's assur for non-learned people to read them (possibly even non-Jews, in this case). And yes, iarwain1 is correct that apikorsus is a thing and an apikores is a person. But thank you for translating.

1gjm
Can you recommend such things to other people considered learned? (And: is there an important distinction between "assur" and "forbidden"? A little googling suggests that "assur" is less emphatic somehow; is that right?) Yup, inexcusably sloppy of me. Thanks.

I'm an Orthodox Jew (Modern Orthodox). Since Mr. Yudkowsky's work is - obviously - apikorsus of the highest level, I read it l'havin ul'horos, mostly, but enjoy the thinking in it anyway.

In case anyone else is curious, it appears that:

"apikorsus" has a range of meanings including "heretic", "damned person", "unbeliever"; the term may or may not be derived from the name of Epicurus.

[EDITED to add: As pointed out by kind respondents below, I was sloppy and mixed up "apikores" (which has the meanings above) and "apikorsus" (which means something more like "the sort of thing an apikores says"). My apologies.]

"l'havin ul'horos" means "to understand and to teach... (read more)