All of Ppau's Comments + Replies

Ppau10

Your first point is a good one And your second point successfully annoyed me

Ppau20

I didn't know about that test! Pretty neat, and it seems better than the "color of the apple" one

To be clear I am not pushing back on the notion of aphantasia, although I'm not necessarily a fan

And I don't think I have aphantasia

My point was more about metaphors, and about the fact that much more of our communication relies on them than we realize

3espoire
I've read that imagination (in the sense of conjuring mental imagery) is a spectrum, and I've encountered a test which some but not all phantasic people fail.   I don't recall the details enough to pose it directly, but I think I do recall enough to reinvent the test: * Ask the subject to visualize a 3x3 grid of letters. * Provide the information required to construct the visualization in an unusual order, for example top-to-bottom right-to-left for people not accustomed to that layout. * Ask them to read the 3-letter word in each row. Test details guessed above may not properly recreate the ability to distinguish levels of imagery. My hazy memory says the words might be top-to-bottom? Or the order of providing the letters might matter? Someone actually seeing the image you've requested they construct would be able to trivially read off three words. ...but someone without mental imagery or with insufficient mental imagery may fail. I recall discovering that I really can't imagine more than about 2 letters at a time before adding additional detail to my mental visual workspace forces the loss of something else. That seems pretty poor, and tracks with my inability to imagine human faces -- my theory is that a specific face requires more details to distinguish it from other faces than the maximum amount of detail I can visualize.
5Richard_Kennaway
That's not an official test, just something I thought up!
Answer by Ppau3-5

Sorry, I'm being very pedantic, but how are "picturing" and "mind's eye" not metaphorical? It's not like there's an actual picture or an actual eye anywhere, in fact that's the whole point

1Arbituram
Do you ever have visual experiences in dreams? It's like that, but you're awake. 
1CstineSublime
If you want to be truly pendatic, the "mind's eye" and "picturing" are analogies and not metaphors.  The mind's eye is like that of a physical, sensory eye, but doesn't replace it. Analogy: "Joe looks at you, his eyes like gemstones" Metaphor: "Joe looks at your with his gemstones" Analogy: "I am picturing it in my mind's eye as if I had a second pair of eyes" Metaphor: "I am picturing it with my second pair of eyes"   If you want to be even more pendantic, we could have a Idealist discussion of the metaphysics of sense and that all pictures are mental pictures, since the image doesn't exist the instant that photons are received by the retina, but are accumulated through a series of processes in the brain - particularly the visual cortex.

There is (for me) an actual experience of a picture. It seems only slightly metaphorical to call the faculty of experiencing such pictures “seeing” by an “eye”.

One test for the possession of such a faculty might be to count the vertexes of some regular (not necessarily Platonic) polyhedron, given only a verbal description.

Ppau20

Thanks, this is interesting

I was wondering, do retinoids work as an acute treatment as well? I sometimes have annoying acne spots in various places, but I don't feel like preventatively slathering my whole body in the stuff

5GeneSmith
Hard to say. Retinols are recommended as a preventative. Though incidentally I have noticed acne fading much faster after using them. I suspect this is because they speed up the healing process of the skin.
2Franny
No, retinoids work by normalizing skin function and usually take at least a few weeks of consistent use to show results. If you need an acute treatment, consider benzoyl peroxide or acids like AHA and BHA.
Ppau10

Of course! Thank you

Ppau30

As a fellow member of the regrettably small overlap between rationalists and adepts of ecological psychology, (https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Y4hN7SkTwnKPNCPx5/why-don-t-more-people-talk-about-ecological-psychology), I'm looking forward to seeing your next posts!

2TeaSea
Thanks! I might link to your excellent post in my next effort, if that's ok...?
Ppau00

Those statist AI doomers never miss a chance to bring I, R, and S into everything...

More seriously, thanks for the history lesson!

5gwern
Death, taxes, and war, you know - you may not be interested in I, R, or S, but they are interested in you.
Ppau10

Thanks for your answer! Very interesting

I didn't know about the continuous nature of LNN; I would have thought that you needed different hardware (maybe an analog computer?) to treat continuous values.

Maybe it could work for generative networks for images or music, that seems less discrete than written language.

3Dave Orr
I mean, computers aren't technically continuous and neither are neural networks, but if your time step is small enough they are continuous-ish. It's interesting that that's enough. I agree music would be a good application for this approach.
Ppau10

Je suis de Grenoble donc ça fait loin mais sympa de voir des rationalistes en France!

1vi21maobk9vp
Je ne suis pas sûr si je compte comme un rationaliste… (Par exemple, je crois que la position de Scott Aaronson sur AI est beaucoup plus raisonnable que ce qu'on trouve sur LW). Mais pour un réunion «ACX en général» je crois qu'on va trouver un sujet intéréssant à tous pour parler … si il y a de «tous», et je ne suis pas 100% sûr.
Ppau20

As I understand it, ecological psychology is more of a framework for the interpretation of existing results than a theory, but it does make predictions about coaching interventions, and yeah it seems like the results are pretty robust

Here is a compilation of studies comparing approaches favored by ecologically-minded coaches to more traditional training interventions: https://perceptionaction.com/comparative/

Could be biased of course, but it may be a good starting point

2FEPbro
Yeah—as far as I know, ecological psychology is less about messing with undergrads in the lab and more about understanding how the constraints of the body and environment inform and enable what were historically thought to be "purely mental" activities. The empirical usefulness of ecological psychology is evident in how ideas from it helps us build robots that walk and grasp and so on. 
Ppau30

Indeed, the language analogy is a good metaphor for what I was getting at

To be clear though, I was making the opposite point: that ecological dynamics is a lower-level language and bayesianism is at a higher level Like, everyone talks about "opinions" and "mental models" but those concepts are more abstract and leakier, and the underlying reality is closer to information-control laws

But it might be the reverse, what do I know

Ppau10

Sure, in any case we're talking about unconscious "automatic" processes The question is what kind of processes they are

Ppau10

Thanks! Yeah, you're probably right about the style, I wanted to have some fun but I'm new at this

Ppau10

Not sure is they would qualify as "rationalist" but I’m really fond of the Stronger by Science website/podcast

They’re quite knowledgeable and cautious in their advice, and I find their explanations very clear

If you want to go deeper they have a subscription for a very serious monthly research review, and a diet app that seems very carefully designed

Ppau20

Thanks, I watched a few videos and really liked them
Makes you appreciate the importance of common things

Ppau-10

I'm just here to say that we should call it "Solomonoff's EDM" or "Solomonoff's EUV process"