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Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
radfaraf30

Also going to add the ones I bought on amazon that didn't work were much thicker than the contec ones, the connector did work though, but I think the thickness of the space in the tubing may need to be the same perhaps to work, and the contec ones are very narrow. Thicker ones are probably for oxygen delivery and other uses and not co2 reading.

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2riceissa
Hi, I wanted to give an update. Capnometry biofeedback worked better than I expected. My baseline ET CO2 went from around 27mmHg to around 40mmHg in the first 1.5 weeks of using the device, and stayed there for the whole month I had access to the device. (I've now returned the device.) The key thing I discovered was that even though I was already nasal breathing 99.9% of the time, my nasal breaths were still quite audible and so I was overbreathing because of that. The biofeedback+coaching allowed me to switch my breathing to a silent nasal one in stages. I still experience air hunger, but it is a lot more subtle than before. I still have trouble talking, some of the time (I think talking makes me overbreathe, so if I start out with no air hunger then I can talk for quite a while, but if I start talking when I already have some air hunger, then I quickly reach my limits). I still on occasion mysteriously have a lot more air hunger than normal and feel like I "forgot how to breathe", and I wonder if that means I have some sort of autonomic problem... I've been writing up a lot of my thoughts here. I might retry capnometers in a few months or a year or something, but for now my plan is to go back to (original Russian-lineage) Buteyko method and really logging the time (rather than half-assing it, which is what I was doing previously with Buteyko). Feel free to ask any questions.
Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
radfaraf40

It can seem real time, but if I do an experiment such as breath hold or other big breathing change and wait till I see it, it's about 5 seconds from memory.

 

For the water I use these types of tubes: https://contechealth.com/collections/hot-sales/products/tube-adapter-for-co2-module-etco2-capnograph-respiratory-cable-for-cms8000-vet-veterinary?_pos=3&_sid=3eab643da&_ss=r

They remove the water, using that gold color threaded thingy in the tube it attracts the water vapor and releases it out of the tube, but not perfectly, when I stop if there is ... (read more)

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Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
radfaraf40

From my unit I can only get the graph to do co2 and nothing else, maybe some marketing person made graphics that aren't accurate, because I do recall seeing that image too, but didn't know what it was of and assumed it was co2. But the actual unit has no way of making a graph of the spo2 as far as I can tell, certainly not mentioned in the manual that you can. It just does the spo2 % number like shown on the screen.

I'm familiar with the CapnoTrainer there are lots of good videos out there describing what they do in detail many created by the founder I thin... (read more)

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3riceissa
I had a couple more questions about the CONTEC device: 1. What's the lag time from when you breathe to when the waveform is displayed on the screen, and when the number updates? 2. How does it prevent water (from exhaled air) from getting into the device? The CapnoTrainer uses water traps inserted between the cannula and the device itself, and these water traps need to be replaced every once in a while. But I haven't seen anything similar for the CONTEC device.
2riceissa
Thank you, this is helpful! I found someone in my local area who has a CapnoTrainer and was willing to rent it out to me and coach me, so it was a lot cheaper than the official route. But yeah, in general rentals are quite expensive unfortunately. If I couldn't find anyone who would rent one out to me for a reasonable price, I would probably have just gone with the CONTEC device as you did. When I originally wrote this LW post, I had never used a capnometer of any kind (it just seemed quite promising and I was confused why basically no one was talking about it). After writing the post, I found someone who would rent a CapnoTrainer to me, and have been using the device now for about a week. The CapnoTrainer is still the only capnometer I have used. It's still too early for me to say whether the device "worked" or not, but so far it's been a quite promising experience (I'm planning to write more in maybe a month when the rental period ends).
Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
radfaraf40

The contec does show the waveform, it's just on a tiny screen so not the most detailed. 

Talking is really bad too for me. If I talk for a sentence or less, let myself breathe a few breaths while not moving, then resume talking and keep pausing for a while after talking only a bit that helps a lot. For moving I adopted a similar tactic in that if I only move for a few seconds and then stop moving to breathing 1-2 breathes with no movement it stops the crazy breathing acceleration and tensing from happening. Doesn't solve it, but makes the bad effects m... (read more)

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4riceissa
Huh, okay, that is good to know. I was looking at images like this one where the wave form is clearly the SpO2, rather than CO2: But scrolling through more of the images, I do see this, which looks like a CO2 curve: I am guessing there must be some way to switch which graph you see? This sounds so much like me... (Luckily I don't seem to have the problem with movement, but eating (specifically swallowing) makes me nervous too.) I don't know if you've looked into Peter Litchfield's work (he has a bunch of videos on YouTube too), but he talks a lot about altering your subconscious/unconscious breathing habits instead of consciously using techniques as crutches to save you from an episode. I recently got access to a CapnoTrainer so that will be my plan for hopefully fixing my breathing (I already did this once when going from ~80% nose-breathing to ~99.9% nose-breathing -- it took about a month of anxiously paying too much attention to my breath, but after a month or so it became totally natural).
Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
radfaraf10

Too much is bad, too little is bad, it has a number of important functions, so that poisonous bit is a huge oversimplification that gets repeated a lot, but is clearly incorrect if you need some to be alive.

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Why is capnometry biofeedback not more widely known?
Answer by radfaraf40

I came looking into this topic because I have severe breathing issues that were caused as side-effects of neurofeedback that was supposed to help trauma issues. Ended up doing a lot of butekyo, but that didn't help me at all and wanted to know why. Somehow found out about this co2 stuff and saw the same issue about how expensive it was and how little people knew about it.

With lots of searching I found this meter about 2 years ago and have had it since: https://contechealth.com/collections/best-selling/products/contec-ca10s-end-tidal-co2-capnograph

As far as... (read more)

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4riceissa
Thank you, this is really fascinating! After writing this post, I talked to someone who does biofeedback using a capnometer, and they also mentioned that same CONTEC device as a cheap but still accurate capnometer. Their main gripe with it was that it responds more slowly compared to the CapnoTrainer and doesn't show the wave form, so it is not as good for doing biofeedback with (e.g. apparently the CapnoTrainer can show things like aborted breaths or weird exhalation patterns, whereas the CONTEC device can't show that), but it is still good enough for detecting CO2 levels. I would love to read more about your experiences with your breathing issue and what you've tried. Your description of your problem seems similar to my own -- for example, I notice that talking out loud seems to dysregulate my breathing pretty quickly.