All of RamblinDash's Comments + Replies

One of the most common forms of Whataboutism is of the form "You criticize X, but other people vaguely politically aligned with you failed to criticize Y." (assuming for argument that X and Y are different but similar wrongs)

 

 The problem with that is that the only possible sincere answers are necessarily unsatisfying, and it's hard to gauge their sincerity. Here's what I see as the basic possibilities.

  • Y and X are equally bad, my allies are wrong about this [but what are you gonna do about it?]
  • Y is bad but X is genuinely worse because of .... (ca
... (read more)

The problem with this argument is that it ignores a unique feature of AIs - their copiability. It takes ~20 years and O($300k) to spin up a new human worker. It takes ~20 minutes to spin up a new AI worker. 

So in the long run, for a human to economically do a task, they have to not just have some comparative advantage but have a comparative advantage that's large enough to cover the massive cost differential in "producing" a new one.

This actually analogizes more to engines. I would argue that a big factor in the near-total replacement of horses by eng... (read more)

9AnthonyC
Exactly, yes. Also: I came to comment mainly on this claim in the OP, so I'll put it here: In particular, at a glance, horses can reproduce, find their own food and fuel, self-repair, and learn new skills to execute independently or semi-independently. These advantages were not sufficient in practice to save (most) horses from the impact of engines, and I do not see why I should expect humans to fare better. I also find the claim that humans fare worse in a world of expensive robotics than in a world of cheap robotics to be strange. If in one scenario, A costs about as much as B, and in another it costs 1000x as much as B, but in both cases B can do everything A can do equally well or better, plus the supply of B is much more elastic than the supply of A, then why would anyone in the second scenario keep buying A except during a short transitional period? When we invented steam engines and built trains, horses did great for a while, because their labor became more productive. Then we got all the other types of things with engines, and the horses no longer did so great, even though they still had (and in fact still have) a lot of capabilities the replacement technology lacked.
4Noosphere89
I think this is a central simplifying assumption that makes a lot of economists assume away AI potential, because AI directly threatens the model where the quantity of workers is fixed, and this is probably the single biggest difference from me compared to people like Tyler Cowen, though in his case he doesn't believe population growth matters much, while I consider it to first order be the single most important thing powering our economy as it is today.

This idea kind of rhymes with gain-of-function research in a way that makes me uncomfortable. "Let's intentionally create harmful things, but its OK because we are creating harmful things for the purpose of preventing the harm that would be caused by those things."

 

I'm not sure if I can formalize this into a logically-tight case against doing it, but it seems conceptually similar to X, and X is bad.

1Double
That's fair enough and a good point.  I think that the key difference is that in the case of profitable-but-bad technologies, someone, somewhere, will probably invent them because there's great incentive to do so. In the case of gain-of-function, if there stops being grants and the academics who do it become pariahs, then the incentive to do the gain-of-function research is gone. 

Just to make the math easy, let's suppose the gouging tax is 50%. 

 

The air purifiers problem seems like not a big problem? If they are normally "worth" $150 and you value having them at $300, you could post them up for sale at $450. Then, if someone really needs them, you get your $300, they get their air purifier, and $150 goes to disaster relief. This tax only prevents the trade if the buyers would buy them for $300 but not for $450, which limits the amount of deadweight loss here to a maximum of $149, rather than potentially unbounded deadweight loss under current policy.

3jefftk
A new air purifier is $150, but mine have been hanging around my house collecting dust and viruses; I don't think a used air purifier would have gone for $150 pre-emergency. Let's say the used value was $75. To get the same benefit as selling for $300 with no surcharge I'd need to charge $525: 2x my $300, less the $75 used value. But I agree: the air purifiers situation is still improved when moving from the status quo (illegal) to the proposal (taxed). My point with that footnote is that the proposal still does some to discourage supply increases relative to a world without this regulation.

Many states have already passed something like this, which only takes effect once enough states sign on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

 

However, I think it's unlikely that this will get over the 270 hump anytime soon, because right now GOP-run states (correctly) perceive that the EC has a pro-GOP tilt (for now at least); and the swing states benefit a lot from swing status.

6Thomas Kwa
I mention exactly this in paragraph 3.

Those kinds of VC-run business can also often have other problems. For example, Aspen Dental was sued for deceptive marketing.

1Jiao Bu
Interesting case.  Are there other cases where VC-run businesses have similar issues, perhaps in other industries?  I would like to see and understand a pattern if possible.

It's not true that you can't pay negative taxes on your betting market losses, at least if you are someone who uses prediction markets routinely. You are allowed to deduct your gross gambling losses from your gambling gains, and you only pay tax on the net gain. See https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/at-02-53.pdf.

2Max Ghenis
Only if you itemize rather than taking the standard deduction! For example, suppose you purchase a binary contract that pays $1 if an event occurs (and $0 if it doesn't) and you believe there's a 50% chance of the event. If you win, you receive $1 in gross winnings. With a 30% marginal tax rate and without itemizing, you'd pay tax on the full $1—leaving you with a net of $0.70. Given that you paid some amount x for the contract, your net gain on a win is $0.70−x, while a loss means you lose the entire x. To break even, the expected value of the bet must be zero: 0.5×(0.70−x)+0.5×(−x)=0 This simplifies to: 0.35−x=0⟹x=0.35 Thus, if you believe the event is 50% likely (and considering only taxation, not other factors like transaction fees or opportunity costs), you would only gain if you paid under $0.35 for the contract.

Just to push back a little - I feel like these people do a valuable service for capitalism. If people in the reviews or in the press are criticizing a business for these things, that's an important channel of information for me as a consumer and it's hard to know how else I could apply that to my buying decisions without incurring the time and hassle cost of showing up and then leaving without buying anything.

I treat chatGPT as a vibes-ologist; it's good for answering questions about like which X is most popular or what do most people think about X. I agree it's less good for "X is true"

Well, you don't see them as much because they don't necessarily interact with the metaphorical pope(s)/cardinal(s)/etc. I'm just talking about all the thousands of people who have read the sequences and/or other foundational rationalist texts, interpreted them for themselves, and did their best to apply those lessons in their own lives. Many such people exist! They just don't live in the Bay Area, don't necessarily go to rationalist meetups, and might not be active LW posters. So the reason I don't have examples for you is precisely because Active in the R... (read more)

Footnotes are good in translated works. I read the 3-body trilogy translated into English, and it was very helpful to have notes from the translator explaining certain points of cultural context that a Chinese reader would be expected to be familiar with.

Well, "fish" is a statutorily defined term that clearly includes all invertebrates. What did you want the court to do, ignore the statutory text? Arguably, that outcome supports the notion that the courts are less likely to just ignore text limiting the kinds of harm that are cognizable, not more likely, as you seem to be arguing.

6ChristianKl
(4) uses three terms "public safety", "public security" and comparable severity.  I would expect that severity means $500,000,000 worth of damage. Public safety does not seem to be a clearly defined term but fairly broad. 

I have a hard time imagining a Court ruling that "Other grave harms to public safety and security that are of comparable severity" could embrace something so different-in-kind than the listed items.

8Shankar Sivarajan
From the Fish and Game code:  This was read to include bees for the purposes of the Endangered Species Act which lists  (Emphases mine).
Answer by RamblinDash2-2

It only counts if the $500m comes from "cyber attacks on critical infrastructure" or "with limited human oversight, intervention, or supervision....results in death, great bodily injury, property damage, or property loss."

So emotional damages, even if severe and pervasive, can't get you there.

5ChristianKl
If someone creates an automated system that makes deep fake porn and then emails with that porn to blackmail people and publishes the deep fake porn when people don't pay up, that could very well be a system with limited human oversight, intervention, or supervision. Those people who pay the blackmail would also suffer from property loss.  If you have someone committing suicide because of deep fake porn images of themselves, it might also result in death. If you have one suicide + $500,000,000 worth in emotional damage wouldn't it count?
cfoster0134

If you read the definition of critical harms, you’ll see the $500m doesn’t have to come in one of those two forms. It can also be “Other grave harms to public safety and security that are of comparable severity”.

I guess it depends on whether you are trying to maximize the amount of [exercise X] you do, or whether there's a fixed quantity of [exercise X] that you are trying to force yourself to do. If the latter, obviously it will take longer if you do it while playing Civ but that's not necessarily a problem.

Civ is famous for "just one more turn" - maybe you can hide whatever it is in between turns?

3NoSignalNoNoise
I've tried this approach, and although it works well during the early part of the game, in the late game, a single turn can take 5-10 minutes, which is much less helpful as an exercise interlude.

Just move the percent? Instead of "RFK Jr is very unlikely to win the presidency (0.001%)", say "RFK Jr is very unlikely (0.001%) to win the presidency"

I think this post is good but a distracting factual inaccuracy in it is that yeast are not bacteria.

4adamShimi
My bad. Thanks for the correction, edited the post.
4Said Achmiz
Indeed. It’s right in the name: “saccharomyces” = “sugar fungus”.

If it did work, you might call it "immaculate contraception"!

This is equally applicable under normal law, under which property taxes already exist, they just tax both structures and land instead of just land.

For opinions that's right - for news stories about complaints being filed, they are sometimes not publicly available online, or the story might not have enough information to find them, e.g. what specific court they were filed in, the actual legal names of the parties, etc.

They also do this with court filings/rulings. The thing they do that's most annoying is that they'll have a link that looks like it should be to the filing/ruling, but when clicked it's just a link to another earlier news story on the same site, or even sometimes a link to the same page I'm already on!

1[anonymous]
Most regular readers have never (and will never) read any judicial opinion and instead rely almost entirely on the media to tell them (usually in very oversimplified, biased, and incoherent ways) what the Supreme Court held in a particular case, for example. The vast majority of people who have any interest whatsoever in reading court documents are lawyers (or police officers, paralegals, sports and music agents, bankers etc) generally accustomed to finding those opinions quickly using stuff like casetext, courtlistener, as well as probably a half dozen other paid websites laypeople like me don't even know about. The demand for linking the actual ruling or opinion is just too low for journalists to care about. As a result, stuff like courthousenews and the commentary available on the Volokh Conspiracy unsurprisingly becomes crucial for finding some higher-level insights into legal matters.

It's something that kinda falls out of Attorney ethics rules, where a lot of duties attach to representation of a client. So we want to be very clear when we are and are not representing someone. In addition, under state ethics laws (I'm a state government lawyer), we are not authorized to provide legal advice to private parties.

1Tapatakt
Oh, so (almost) everyone who write this do it because they have some profession such that they sometimes really give serious legal/financial/medical advise, right? This makes perfect sense, I think I just didn't realise how often the people I read in the Internet are like this, so I didn't have this as a hypothesis in my head :)

I suppose it's related, but I think maybe I was thrown off by the parenthetical. I perceive it as fundamentally different from altruism. This form of 'love as being on the same team' is also about enjoying your loved ones' successes, seeing them learn and grow and triumph, even if you don't particularly give or protect anything in particular. Because when we're on the same team, their win is my win. 

Answer by RamblinDash10

Another aspect of Love that's not really addressed here I tend to think of as a sense of 'being on the same team.' When I relate to people I love, I might help them or do something nice for them for the same reasons that Draymond Green passes the ball to Steph Curry - because when Steph makes a 3, the team's score increases and that's what they are trying to do. Draymond doesn't (or at least shouldn't) hold onto the ball and try to score himself unless he has a better shot (he usually doesn't) - points are points.

Whereas when interacting with someone I don... (read more)

1SpectrumDT
Is the thing that you are talking about clearly distinct from this thing from my OP?

In general, courts are not so stupid and the law is not so inflexible to ignore such an obvious fig leaf, if the NDA was otherwise enforceable. Query whether it is, but whether or not you just make your statement openly or whether you have a totally-fictional statement about totally-not-OpenAI would be unlikely to make a difference IMO.

*I don't represent you and this statement should not be taken as legal advice on any particular concrete scenario.

3Tapatakt
Thanks! BTW, my curiosity doesn't stop: do you (americans? west-europeans too?) actually feel the necessity to write this disclaimers about "not a legal/financial advice"? It's like "my granpa said he remembers one time someone got sued because they didn't write it" or more like "fasten your seatbelt"?

One argument that this post misses is that a significant chunk overall, and much of the most burdensome subset of this debt (which is not the same as the highest volume of the debt), will never be collected anyway, although it still makes the holders' lives worse. So the estimates of the costs of this policy are very inflated if they treat the forgiveness of unsecured debt as costing $1 for $1.

Still, I agree that just plain blanket forgiveness is bad policy. I don't think that's what was ever on the table tho? Forgiving a capped amount (I think $20,000 was... (read more)

So I guess I'm not sure what you mean by that. I think it might be easier to support what I'm saying in the negative. Some example of inauthenticity or un-openness might be:

  • Consciously faking your personality (in a way that you wouldn't want to maintain as an essentially permanent change)
  • Lying about what you want out of the relationship
  • Pretending to like/dislike hobbies or interests that you actually strongly dislike/like

The problem with doing these things is that, to the extent that doing them was necessary to gain the relationship, you are now stuck with... (read more)

1rotatingpaguro
Ok, then I agreed. I was interpreting the advice in a different way, but your interpretation looks more reasonable.

[M]aybe being yourself and open works for people who happen to already be relationship-compatible. People who are not would be worse off by trying to be themselves. I think I have been burned in the past a lot by that kind of advice, although my experience is too much of an anecdote to infer an average.

 

I think you are maybe using a different definition of "worse off." I would submit that a relationship that is maintainable only by being inauthentic and unopen is, in the long run, significantly worse than no relationship, both because of the experienc... (read more)

1rotatingpaguro
Thinking about it, I suspect I was not getting what "authenticity and openness" means. Like, it's not "being yourself and letting go", and more "being honest", I guess? Could you give me >= 2 examples of a person being "authentic and open"?

IDK, I think this comment warrants the level of karma. OP is proposing messing around with a drug class that kills thousands of people per year. Even only counting benzo overdoses that don't involve opioids, it kills ~1500 people per year. Source: https://nida.nih.gov/research-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates (you can download the data from that page to see precise numbers).

It's not often that a forum comment could save a life!

Algon1813

Even though I think the comment was useful, it doesn't look to me like it was as useful as the typical 139 karma comment as I expect LW readers to be fairly unlikely to start popping benzos after reading this post. IMO it should've gotten like 30-40 karma. Even 60 wouldn't have been too shocking to me. But 139? That's way more karma than anything else I've posted. 
 

I don't think it warrants this much karma, and I now share @ryan_greenblatt's concerns about the ability to vote on Quick Takes and Popular Comments introducing algorithmic virality to... (read more)

Oh, I wasn't saying that student debt is variable interest, just making a point about debt and inflation in general.

I think people experience rising prices as inflation, but rising wages as a result of their own hard work. Thus, "inflation" feels bad, even if it actually benefits you. Also, wages are stickier than prices, so even if overall wages are rising your own personal wage might not rise smoothly along.

 

Also, if your debt is variable-interest, then inflation doesn't necessarily benefit you. It only benefits you if you have fixed-interest debt.

4Viliam
Ah, so it is. I have no idea how American student debt works with regards to inflation. I assumed it was fixed. If not, then it is much worse than I assumed (and I already assumed it was quite bad).

I feel like this comparison of the enforcement here with the TikTok ban is not directed at the actual primary concern about TikTok, which is content curation by its opaque algorithm, not data privacy per se.

 

By analogy, if a Soviet state-owned enterprise in 1980 wanted to purchase NBC, would/should we have allowed that? If your answer is "no," keeping in mind how many people get their news via TikTok, why would/should we allow what effectively seems to be a CCP-(owned or heavily influenced) company to control what content our people see?

2ChristianKl
Politico wrote, "Perhaps the most pressing concern is around the Chinese government’s potential access to troves of data from TikTok’s millions of users." The concern that TikTok supposedly is spyware is frequently made in discussions about why it should be banned. If the main issue is content moderation decisions, the best way to deal with it would be to legislate transparency around content moderation decisions and require TikTok to outsource the moderation decisions to some US contractor. 

I am not a mediator so maybe you have me beat, but it's not immediately clear why you would assume this

But don't the non-diseased copies not just need to generally meditate, but to do some special kind of meditation where they forget the affirmative evidence they have that they don't have the disease?

2avturchin
non-disease copies do not need to perform any changes in their meditation routine in this model, assuming that they naturelly forget their disease status during meditation.

In this scenario, why are the non-disease-having copies participating? They are not in a state of ignorance, they know they don't have the disease.

2avturchin
I assume that meditation happens naturally, like sleep. 

Asteroid impacts are a prime candidate to stop global warming.

 

I dunno man, Randall Munroe thinks that they would cause global warming.

5quiet_NaN
Well, I think Munroe is not thinking big enough here.  Of course, this might increase global warming in the long run because the impact crater can produce CO2 from both of the global firestorms devastating plant life and the destruction of carbonate rock in the earth mantle, but I think that this can be minimized by choosing a suitable impact location (which was not a concern for Chicxulub) and is partly offset by a decline in fossil fuel use due to indirect effects. Also, all of the tipping point factors in climate change would work to our advantage: larger polar caps reflect more light, more permafrost binds more CO2 and so on.  At the worst, climate engineering might require periodic impacts on a scale of one per decade, which seems sustainable. 

The nicest thing one can say about that arrangement is that it failed to start WW III

You say this like it's some kind of grudging acknowledgement, but it's actually the entire point of the structure and a Big F'n Deal. Recall that there was less than 25 years between WW1 and WW2. It's been almost 80 years without WW3, despite high tensions at various times. WW3 would have been catastrophic, and preventing it is a great accomplishment.

If that's what Quinn (comment OP) is saying then I think it's obviously wrong - people really do value the goods and services they access via the internet very highly. This leads me to believe that this is not what Quinn is saying.

What I (post author) am saying is people don't apply even a tiny fraction of the vibes that come with that high value to their actual ISP (or, analogously, airline, electric company etc).

1M. Y. Zuo
Why does it matter? ‘Vibes’ are nowhere near as good as satisfying shareholders sufficiently or having enough money in the bank account to be a credible operating business, at least in market economies, certainly I imagine Comcast decision makers would care a lot more about the actual legally binding concerns more than all the good ‘vibes’ in the world. e.g. If their financials seem shaky one day and they could somehow double their cashflow by sacrificing ‘vibes’, they would gladly welcome all the bad ‘vibes’ you could possibly have, times a million. It literally would be a welcome relief to accept this in exchange for more money.

I think the lesson of social desirability bias is that valuable services having lower status than they "ought" to is the system working as intended.

 

Can you elaborate? I don't understand your point because it's too compressed. I feel like I need ~3 more sentences here to get it.

2MondSemmel
Maybe OP's idea is that people say that Internet access is a really valuable thing they're very thankful for yadda yadda, but they don't actually treat it that way, and so the low status of a service like this is right where it should be.

Yes, my claim is that "The Comcast Problem" is the reason for hatred, as opposed a feeling more like "I really value the service but am annoyed by the customer service and pricing, so overall meh."

On a -5 to +5 scale, I'm saying they are often at like -5 when they really should be somewhere between -1 and +1.

2Brendan Long
My disagreement is that I don't think people are generally upset with Comcast about internet service problems, they're upset about completely different parts of the business (billing, customer service). I think this is fair, since "hating" a company typically has to do with how you feel about your interactions with them (do they treat you fairly, nicely, etc.), not how good they are at their jobs. Taking this the other direction, some local ISP's provide service that isn't very "good" (using wireless tech, which has fundamental limitations, having fewer people on-call to fix problems, having fewer people to spread up-front costs to), but are very wholesome and nice to work with. Even if I choose not to use their service because of the limitations, I don't hate them because they're doing their best.
2Dagon
Hmm.  Is this a claim that no rating on that scale can be below -1 if you continue using the service?  What purpose does that rating serve, as opposed to just the binary "are you still a customer"?

Well, one additional factor the US has is that various veto points and power centers cycle on different time scales.

There would also be an incentive to introduce lots of meaningless elections between irrelevant (to you) alternatives in order to abstain and accrue more stored votes.

 

Could also be described as "There would also be an incentive to allow others to make decisions on issue that matter more to them than to you, in order to be more likely to get your way on an issue you care about."

Re-phrased that way, it's not clear to me that this is a bad thing. If they don't care about those other issues either, then you won't gain any stored votes on net relative to other voters.

1Brendan Long
But it also creates an incentive to bring lots of annoying stuff to vote to force your political enemies to vote for it. For example, if you put "Deport all Rationalists" up for vote as often as possible, you can prevent Rationalists from voting for anything else.
1Arturo Macias
This is the whole point of the mechanism. To allocate victories to those who value them more. In the model there is a stochastic flow of issues with stochastic importance for both players. The idea is that this system allocates victories to those who value them more.
4Measure
Yeah, it could definitely be more of a feature than a bug.

Absolutely! I value your voice. But, and excuse me if this is a misread, your posts in this series read to me like you are still trying to convince yourself and/or him.

It reads like you are a sort of rationalist Martin Luther criticizing the Pope. But, like, there are already a lot of metaphorically-protestant rationalists.

1Sweetgum
Who are some other examples?

I think I'm trying to make a different point than footnote 20?

It seems like you are taking me to be saying something like "You shouldn't care what EY thinks about this Trans issue because "Everybody Knows" not to take his statements on this seriously" - that's how I read FN20.

Whereas I think my point is much more general and really not specific to Trans at all - like why be so deeply invested in the contents of some one guy's mind, at all? On any issue?

EY wrote some great (book-like objects). Inspiring, even. Worldview changing. But, like, whatever his opi... (read more)

9Zack_M_Davis
Yes, that would be ridiculous. It would also be ridiculous in a broadly similar way if someone spent eight years in the prime of their life prosecuting a false advertising lawsuit against a "World's Best" brand ice-cream for not actually being the best in the world. But if someone did somehow make that mistake, I could see why they might end up writing a few blog posts afterwards telling the Whole Dumb Story.

Maybe I just don't get it because I'm not part of the Berkeley Community, I just read the writing. But my immediate reaction to this is like, why does Zack care so much about what Eliezer (2024) does or does not think? Or even whether, these days, he is or is not a fraud?

Like if you thought what he wrote in 2007 was great, just listen to that? Many (all?) authors who write great books have also written worse books. Maybe Zack's opinion is falling a long way from wherever it was.

But perhaps he would be happier to adopt a more ecumenical non-Berkeley-ite sta... (read more)

4Zack_M_Davis
You are perhaps wiser than me. (See also footnote 20.)

One thing to further ponder is the extent to which systematic or repeated boundary violations can effectively amount to a dissolution. Analogous examples:

  • Forcing someone to submit to multiple-times-daily injections, so far all of which have been harmless saline
  • Constantly stealing objects from someone's house in a way that they don't feel like they can meaningfully accumulate personal property
  • Entering a country with closed borders so frequently that its ability to enforce its immigration laws is effectively gummed up

(See this list of bar associations just for Massachusetts.)

 

Minor point but this is often misunderstood. These bar associations are essentially networking groups for lawyers. They are not required in order to practice. What's required to practice is bar admission which is different. There's also a federal bar admission, but that's only two, not dozens.

In a game where you play a higher number of shorter games, you can ideally have a handicap that adjusts after every game.  For example, in Super Smash Bros, if you turn handicap to "auto" then the stronger player starts with damage, which (in two player) goes up 10% every time they win, and down 10% every time they lose. It gets a little more complicated in 3+ player games, and I'm not sure the exact algorithm, but it works reasonably well. Maybe something to emulate in a game where handicaps can be reasonably granular?

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