All of rsaarelm's Comments + Replies

The dark age might have gotten darker recently. Everyone's scrabbling around trying to figure out what AI will mean for programming as a profession going forward, and AI mostly only boosts established languages it has large corpora of working code for.

I've been following the Rust project for the last decade and have been impressed at just how much peripheral scutwork contributes to making the language and ecosystem feel solid. This stuff is a huge undertaking. I'm not terribly excited any more about incremental improvement languages. They seem to be mostly... (read more)

I've got an idea what meditation people might be talking about with doing away with the self. Once you start thinking about what the lower-level mechanics of the brain are like, you start thinking about representations. Instead of the straightforward assertion "there's a red apple on that table", you might start thinking "my brain is holding a phenomenal representation of a red apple on a table". You'll still assume there's probably a real apple out there in the world too, though if you're meditating you might specifically try to not assign meanings to phe... (read more)

Answer by rsaarelm10

Lewis Dartnell's The Knowledge - How to Rebuild Our World From Scratch is a sort of grand tour for technological underpinnings of industrial civilization and how you might bootstrap them. Might be a bit dry, but it's popular writing and if the kid's already reading encyclopedias it should fit right in. Lots of concrete details about specific technologies.

Might go for a left field option and see what he makes of Euclid's Elements.

I haven't tried galantamine, but didn't find the drugless techniques all the same. The standard advice of keeping a dream diary and psyching yourself to have a lucid dream and to do reality checks never worked at all for me. Wake-back-to-bed on the other hand got me dozens of lucid dreams and often worked the first time I tried it after a break. It's also annoying to do because it involves messing with your sleep cycle and waking yourself up in the early morning, and it seems to always stop working if I try to do it multiple nights in a row.

Agree with the ... (read more)

Answer by rsaarelm90

Everyone who participates probably isn't a github-using programmer, but if they were, a stupid five-minute solution might be to just set up a private github project and use its issue tracker for forum threads.

I had the same problem, then I started mixing cottage cheese in the oatmeal and that fixed it.

8Kaj_Sotala
Tried it, felt like it worked! However I remembered that I don't like the taste of cottage cheese that much. 😅 Totally coincidentally a friend posted that a nutritionist had told him that this may be caused by some people's digestive systems not processing fiber properly if they don't get protein at the same time. Cottage cheese has protein... the nutritionist's advise had been to cook the oats with milk or to add an egg. Hmm.

Back when I read about people claiming a RepRap can reproduce itself, I felt like the claim implied it would build the electronics of the new RepRap from scratch as well and was confused since obviously a 3D printer can't double as a chip fab. The gold standard for a self-replicating machine for me is something like plants, which can turn high-entropy raw materials like soil and ores into itself given a source of energy. I guess you could talk about autotrophic self-reproducing machines that can do their thing given a barren planet and sunlight, and hetero... (read more)

4harfe
There is also Project Quine, which is a newer attempt to build a self-replicating 3D printer
rsaarelm90

Great post. I've been trying to find SF reviews that aren't just blurbs to get an idea about what's going on with the scene currently. With the exception of Tchaikovsky, most authors whose names keep popping up seem to still be ones who started publishing back in the 20th century. Unfortunately, I already know about most of the books on this list. So I'm going to write a wishlist of books I've heard of but don't know that much about and would like to see reviews of,

  • Radix series by AA Attanasio
  • Starfishers series by Glen Cook
  • The Gap Cycle by Stephen R. D
... (read more)
8philh
I think I've read this twice, in my early teens and early twenties, and loved it both times. But I'm now 34 and can't talk about it in depth. I think past-me especially liked the grimness and was impressed at how characters seemed to be doing things for internally motivated reasons. (IIRC Donaldson calls this giving characters "dignity". I feel like since then I've picked up another term for it that's temporarily slipped my mind.) I still think A Dark and Hungry God Arises and This Day All Gods Die are excellent book titles. A caveat is that back then I also loved Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books, and I think that by my mid-twenties I enjoyed them but not so much. So plausibly I'd like the Gap Cycle less now than then too? But I want to re-read. I once saw a conversation that went something like: "I don't find writing quality in sci-fi that important." / "You clearly haven't read Too Like the Lightning". I wasn't sure if the second person meant TLTL's writing is good or bad. Having read TLTL, both interpretations seemed plausible. (They meant good.) I found it very difficult to get through this book, except that the last few chapters were kind of gripping. That was enough to get me to read the next one, which was hard to get through again. Ultimately I read the whole series, and I'm not sure how much I enjoyed the process of reading it. But they're some of my favorite books to have read, and I can imagine myself re-reading them. I enjoyed this but don't have much to say. As an AI safety parable it seemed plausible enough; I hadn't previously seen aliens like that; I occasionally thought some of the writing was amateurish in a way I couldn't put my finger on, but that wasn't a big deal.
5scarcegreengrass
Very well-crafted world. Some might dislike the robotic narrator, some might enjoy it as a fun layer in a complex plot puzzle. High scifiosity. Surreal & unusual novels. Good tone & imagery. Unlike Radch, i think this is more about style & perspective than a style layer over a intricate, hidden plot layer. I read a lot of scifi, but i haven't gotten this obsessed with a book since Green Mars! Like Radch, a unreliable narrator presents a intricate world. Set on Earth four centuries in the future, it follows the political, technological, & dialectic trajectories of a culture that has mutated in strange & fascinating ways from today. Try it for the economics of future aircraft & the vivid soliloquies. Avoid it if you dislike books that frontload worldbuilding & characters, where the plot is confusing until the end. I love it & i have another post about it here. I found this short book very fun & cool. About spies in a extraordinarily spectacular time-travel war. Does feature some very confusing plot points that i still don't understand.
5Said Achmiz
Recommended, but only the print version. It is absolutely pointless to read it as an ebook—don’t even try. But as a print book it’s really something. Outstanding series. Strongly recommended. Classic space opera, philosophical exploration of identity and personhood, excellently written. Some of the best sf I’ve read in a long time. More good old-fashioned space opera. Not quite as satisfying as the previous, but beautifully written. Also recommended. I enjoyed several books of this. I think it keeps going? But I have no intention of finding out. I read just enough of this series to have been satisfied with how much of it I have read. I absolutely could not stand this book. It seemed like it was written specifically to annoy and disgust the reader. Mission successful, if so—I didn’t even get a quarter of the way through it. Mostly of historical interest (it’s mentioned in the Sequences, and it’s somewhat interesting to see what sorts of things people were envisioning, back then, as hoped-for outcomes of successfully developing and spread rationality techniques). Readable enough, but not exceptional, otherwise.
2Yair Halberstadt
Might be worth posting this as it's own question for greater visibility

James Gleick's Genius cites a transcript of "Address to Far Rockaway High School" from 1965 (or 1966 according to this from California Institute of Technology archives for Feynman talking about how he got a not-exceptionally-high 125 for his IQ score. Couldn't find an online version of the transcript anywhere with a quick search.

2Said Achmiz
Sorry, I meant that I’d like to see references for @habryka’s last sentence specifically (i.e., the part for which he says “I could dig up the references”). The IQ thing doesn’t seem to be that.
Answer by rsaarelm20

I've stopped trying to make myself do things I don't want to do. Burned out at work, quit my job, became long-term unemployed. The world is going off-kilter, the horizons for comprehensible futures are shrinking, and I don't see any grand individual-scale quest to claw your way from the damned into the elect.

How many users you can point to who started out making posts that regularly got downvoted to negative karma and later became good contributors? Or, alternatively, specific ideas that were initially only presented by users who got regularly downvoted that were later recognized as correct and valuable? My starting assumption is that it's basically wishful thinking that this would happen much under any community circumstances, people who write badly will mostly keep writing badly and people who end up writing outstanding stuff mostly start out writing better than average stuff.

rsaarelm1015

Please do not vote without an explanatory comment (votes are convenient for moderators, but are poor intellectual etiquette, sans information that would permit the “updating” of beliefs).

This post has terrible writing style, based on your posting history you've been here for a year, writing similarly badly styled posts, people have commented on the style, and you have neither engaged the comments nor tried to improve your writing style. Why shouldn't people just downvote and move on at this point?

rsaarelm2223

Is this your first time running into Zack's stuff? You sound like you're talking to someone showing up out of nowhere with a no-context crackpot manuscript and has zero engagement with community. Zack's post is about his actual engagement with the community over a decade, we've seen a bunch of the previous engagement (in pretty much the register we see here so this doesn't look like an ongoing psychotic break), he's responsive to comments and his thesis generally makes sense. This isn't drive-by crackpottery and it's on LessWrong because it's about LessWrong.

Viliam3224

I agree that Zack has a long history of engagement with the rationalist community, and that this post is a continuation of that history (in a predictable direction).

But that doesn't necessarily make this engagement sane.

From my perspective, Zack has a long-term obsession, and also he is smart enough to be popular on LessWrong despite the fact that practically everything he says is somehow connected to this obsession (and if for a moment it seems like it is not, that's just because he is preparing some convoluted meta argument that will later be used to sup... (read more)

Answer by rsaarelm84

Record-keeping isn't enough to make you a scientist. People might be making careful records and then analyzing them badly, and if there's no actual effect going on selection effect will leave you with a community of misanalyzers.

The PDF is shown in full for me when I scroll down the academia.edu page, here's an archive.is capture in case this is some sort of intermittent A/B testing thing.

There might not be, but it's not a thing in vacuum, it was coined with political intent and it's tangled with that intent.

1[deactivated]
I guess sort of the point of this post is that, in the broadest sense, the political critique of so-called “TESCREAL” lacks imagination — about the possible connections between these -isms and social justice.

Blithely adopting a term that seems to have been coined just for the purposes of doing a smear job makes you look like either a useful idiot or an enemy agent.

1[deactivated]
I don’t think there’s anything inherently disparaging about the acronym.

The post reads like a half-assed college essay where you're going through the motions of writing without things really coming together. Heavy on the structure, there's no clear thread of rhetoric progressing through it, and it's hard to get a clear sense where you're coming from with the whole thing. The overall impression is just list of disjointed arguments, essay over.

2Richard_Kennaway
Just like ChatGPT, in other words.

I've been gaming some 35 years and I don't play any multiplayer games at all. I don't think I remember the ten or so people in my social hangouts who regularly talk about what they're playing talk much about PVP either, they seem to be playing single-player simulator, grand strategy and CRPG games or cooperative multiplayer games mostly.

All else being equal, do you prefer to live in a society where many members are madmen and idiots or in a society where few members are madmen and idiots?

3quetzal_rainbow
Latter, but definitely not by means like "letting them die". Especially because from POV of some transhuman being with 1000 IQ, I'm sure a madman and idiot.

"It can't happen and it would also be bad if it happened" seems to be a somewhat tempting way to argue these topics. When trying to convince an audience that thinks "it probably can happen and we want to make it happen in a way that gets it right", it seems much worse than sticking strictly to either "it can't happen" or "we don't know how to get it right for us if it happens". When you switch to talking about how it would be bad, you come off as scared and lying about the part where you assert it is impossible. It has the same feel as an 18th century theo... (read more)

2the gears to ascension

This sounds drastic enough that it makes me wonder, since the claimed reason was that Said's commenting style was driving high-quality contributors away from the site, do you have a plan to follow up and see if there is any sort of measurable increase in comment quality, site mood or good contributors becoming more active moving forward?

Also, is this thing an experiment with a set duration, or a permanent measure? If it's permanent, it has a very rubber room vibe to it, where you don't outright ban someone but continually humiliate them if they keep coming by and wish they'll eventually get the hint.

(That person is more responsible than any other single individual for Eliezer not being around much these days.)

Wait, the only thing I remember Said and Eliezer arguing about was Eliezer's glowfic. Eliezer dropped out of LW over an argument about how he was writing about tabletop RPG rules in his fanfiction?

7gjm
Eliezer wasn't posting much on LW before then, unless I'm misremembering badly, so if (1) you're right about that being the only substantial argument between Eliezer and Said and (2) Duncan's claim is specifically that Eliezer avoids LW because of unpleasant interactions he's had with Said (as opposed to e.g. because he's observed how Said interacts with others and doesn't want to risk joining their number) then something doesn't add up.
3philh
(For anyone else curious, that thread is here.)

There are already social security means-testing regimes that prod able-bodied applicants to apply for jobs and to spend their existing savings before granting them payments. If sex work and organ sales are fully normalized, these might get extended into denying social security payments until people have tried to support themselves by selling a kidney and doing sex work.

5Dumbledore's Army
There are already countries where prostitution is legal including the Netherlands, the UK and the US state of Nevada. (Not a complete list, just the first three I thought of off the top of my head.) None of them require people to prostitute themselves rather than accessing public benefits.  Likewise, there are countries, including the USA where it's legal to pay people for donating human eggs, and probably other body parts. So far as I know, no state in the US requires women to attempt that before accessing welfare, and the US welfare system is less generous than European ones.  Empirically, your concern seems not to have any basis in fact. 
Answer by rsaarelm20

The shift we're looking at is going from program code that's very close to a computer's inner workings to natural human language for specifying systems, but where the specification must still unambiguously describe the business interest the program needs to solve. We already have a profession for unambiguously specifying complex systems with multiple stakeholders and possibly complex interactions between its parts in natural language. It's called a legislator and it's very much not an unskilled job.

I understand esoteric as something that's often either fundamentally difficult to grasp (ie. an esoteric concept described in a short cryptic text might not be comprehensively explainable with a text five times longer that would be straightforward to write by anyone who understands the subject matter) or intentionally written in a way to keep it obscured from a cursory reading. The definition of hieratic doesn't really connote conceptual difficulty beyond mundane technical complexity or a particular intention to keep things hidden, just that writing can be made much more terse if you assume an audience that is already familiar with what it's talking about.

2tula
Similarly to the general post I just made, is there a significant difference between this definition of hieratic and the general usage of esoteric?

I'm somewhat confused why Nolan Funeral Home is one of the organizations you needed to contact about panspermia contagion, via some random person's memorial page. Is this some kind of spam program gone awry?

-2Bernd Clemens Huber
There's some disingenuous (or at least ignorant) framing in there, but ultimately, the message insight needs to get out there and be taken extremely serious, and I'm slowly but surely running out of suitable contact points, and so alongside the contact search, after some months of daily contacting without results, I extended my approach so that if I find any other contact points during the search that wouldn't be much of a detour (just few minutes) of adding them, I decided to do so, and there is a variety of lines of reasoning by which that can make sense, as the main point (which if it'd finally happen were to obsolete my e-mail contacting efforts, which I'm still waiting for but will also not allow time to pass by unused, if I can still significantly increase the chance of sooner outreach by myself) is that this extremely urgent news hits the worldwide public, and if every person I contact were to at least inform 1/5000th as many other people as me, with that each being further people not yet having heard of the matter, then these earth shattering news would already be known across the globe. And it's frustrating seeing how that still hasn't happened yet. And no, this is all done manually, and to frame the most important insight & warning messaging - a godsend to this civilization's current situation - spam is extremely ungrateful.

Why not fill the detergent compartment immediately after emptying the dishwasher? Then you have closed detergent slot -> dirty dishes, open detergent slot -> clean dishes.

2Brendan Long
This is what me and my roommate do and it works great. Filling the detergent slot when you finish unloading the dishwasher takes almost no time, and it's a very obvious signal.

Have you run the numbers on these? For example

there are never two different subjects claiming to have been the same person

sounds like a case of the Birthday paradox. Assume there's order of magnitude 10^11 dead people since 8000 BCE. So if you have a test group of, say, 10 000 reincarnation claimants and all of them can have memories of any dead person, already claimed or not, what's the probability of you actually observing two of them claiming the same dead person?

The bit about the memories always being from dead people is a bit more plausible. We se... (read more)

2Richard_Kennaway
About 0.01. Calculated using this logfactorial function in Matlab: p = 1 - exp( logfactorial( N ) - logfactorial( N-n ) - n * log( N ) ) You would need about 400000 reincarnation claimants to have a 50% chance of any collisions.
0JacobW38
I assume you mean to say the odds of two subjects remembering the same life by chance would be infinitesimal, which, fair. The odds of one subject remembering two concurrent lives would be much, much higher. Still doesn't happen. In fact, we don't see much in the way of multiple-cases at all, but when we do, it's always separate time periods.
rsaarelm*-10

But I’m curious now, is there a fairly sizable contingent of academic/​evidential dualists in the rationalist community?

It's more empirical than ideological for me. There are these pockets of "something's not clear here", where similar things keep being observed, don't line up with any current scientific explanation, and even people who don't seem obviously biased start going "hey, something's off here". There's the recent US Navy UFO sightings thing that nobody seems to know what to make of, there's Darryl Bem's 2011 ESP study that follows stuff by peo... (read more)

-3JacobW38
One of the best, approachable overviews of all this I've ever read. I've dabbled in some, but not all of the topics you've raised here, and I certainly know about the difficulties they've all faced with increasing to a scientific level of rigor. What I've always said is that parapsychology needs Doctor Strange to become real, and he's not here yet and probably never will be. Otherwise, every attempt at "proof" is going to be dealing with some combination of unfalsifiability, minuscule effect sizes, or severe replication issues. The only related phenomenon that has anything close to a Doctor Strange is, well, reincarnation - it's had a good few power players who'd convince anyone mildly sympathetic. And it lacks the above unholy trinity of bad science; lack of verification would mean falsification, and it's passed that with flying colors, the effect sizes and significance get massive quick even within individual cases, and they sure do keep on coming with exactly the same thing. But it certainly needs to do a lot better, and that's why it has to move beyond Stevenson's methodology to start creating its own evidence. So my progressive approach holds that, if it is to stand on its own merit, then it is time to unleash its full capacity and conduct a wholesale destruction of normalcy with it; if such an operation fails, then it has proven too epistemically weak to be worthy of major attention if it is genuine at all.

Any thoughts on Rupert Sheldrake? Complex memories showing up with no plausible causal path sounds a lot like his morphic resonance stuff.

Also, old thing from Ben Goertzel that might be relevant to your interests, Morphic Pilot Theory hypothesizes some sort of compression artifacts in quantum physics that can pop up as inexplicable paranormal knowledge.

0JacobW38
I haven't read Sheldrake in depth, but I'm familiar with some of his novel concepts. The issue with positing anything so circumstantial being the mechanism for these phenomena is that the cases follow such narrow, exceptionless patterns that would not be so utterly predictable in the event of a non-directed etiology. The subjects never exhibit memories of people who are still alive, there are never two different subjects claiming to have been the same person, one subject never claims memories of two separate people who lived simultaneously... all these things one would expect to be frequent if the information being communicated was essentiaĺly random. It's honestly downright bonkers how perfectly the dataset aligns to a more or less "dualist the exact way humans have imagined it since prehistory" cosmology.

Still makes sense if you listen when walking or driving when you couldn't read a book anyway. I mostly listen to podcasts instead of audiobooks though, a book is a really long commitment compared to a podcast episode.

Podcast transcription services probably. They seem to cost around $1 per minute nowadays. I expect they'll keep getting disrupted by AI. There's already audio transcription AIs like the autogenerated subtitles on youtube, but they get context-dependent ambiguous words wrong. Seems like an obvious idea to plug them to a GPT style language model that can recognize the topic being talked about and uses that to pick an appropriate transcription for homonyms.

You seem to be claiming that whatever does get discovered, which might be interpreted as proof of the spiritual in another climate, will get distorted to support the materialist paradigm. I'm not really sure how this would work in practice. We already have a something of a precommitment to what we expect something "supernatural" to look like, ontologically basic mental entities. So far the discoveries of science have been nothing like that, and if new scientific discoveries suddenly were, I find it very hard to imagine quite many people outside of the "pri... (read more)

Are people here mostly materialists?

Okay, since you seem interested in knowing why people are materialists. I think it's the history of science up until now. The history of science has basically been a constant build-up of materialism.

We started out at prehistoric animism where everything happening except that rock you just threw at another rock was driven by an intangible spirit. The rock wasn't since that was just you throwing it. And then people started figuring out successive compelling narratives about how more complex stuff is just rocks being thr... (read more)

4Jes
Thank you, this makes a lot of sense. I do see how the history of science kind of narrows its way down towards materialism, and if we assume that path will continue in the same direction, pure materialism is the logical outcome. But... I disagree with the narrative that science is narrowing in on materialism. Popular culture certainly interprets the message of Science with a capital S that way, but reading actual scientific work doesn't leave that impression at all. The message I got from my middle school science classes was that science is profoundly uncertain of what matter is, but that it appears to manifest probabilistically under the governance of forces, which are really just measurable tendencies of the behavior of matter, whose origin we also have no guess at. The spiritualists were wrong in their specific guesses, but so were the scientists, who as you note when citing Aristotle. I have no doubt you will be on the right side of history. The priesthood will change the definitions of matter to accommodate whatever spiritual magic we discover next. Past scriptures will be reinterpreted to show how science was always progressing here, the present is the logical endpoint of the past, or at least, of our team in the past. That's because materialists write the record. It's easy to construct History to serve Ideology, so history, at least not epic narrative history like this, is a bad teacher when received from power. Primitive pagan mythology stumbled ignorantly towards the True Religion, or even the inverse of your claim, history is full of self-sure clockwork Newtonians eating crow when the bizarre, uncertain nature of modern physics slowly unraveled before their arrogant, annoyed eyes. --- Thanks again for taking the time to discuss this btw, your response answered my question very well. After all, I'm arguing about whether people should be materialists, but you only explained why they are, so feel free to ignore my ramblings and accept my gratitude :)

OP might be some sort of content farming sockpuppet. No activity other than this post, and this was posted within a minute of a (now deleted) similarly vacuous post from a different account with no prior site activity as well.

1Cédric
What would be the purpose of doing such a thing? There is no link in the writeup which would indicate farming backlinks for SEO

In a Facebook post I argued that it’s fair to view these things as alive.

Just a note, unlike in the recent past, Facebook post links seem to now be completely hidden unless you are logged into Facebook when opening them, so they are basically broken as any sort of publicly viewable resource.

Well, that's just terrible.

Here's the post:

I think the world makes more sense if you recognize humans aren't on the top of the food chain.

We don't see this clearly, kind of like ants don't clearly see anteaters. They know something is wrong, and they rush around trying to deal with it, but it's not like any ant recognizes the predator in much more detail than "threat".

There's a whole type of living being "above" us the way animals are "above" ants.

Esoteric traditions sometimes call these creatures "egregores".

Carl Jung called a special subset of them "arch

... (read more)

You seem to frame this as either there being advanced secret techniques, or it just being a matter of common sense and wisdom and as good as useless. Maybe there's some initial value in just trying to name things more precisely though, and painting a target of "we don't understand this region that has a name now nearly as well as we'd like" on them. Chapman is a former AI programmer from the 1980s, and my reading of him is that he's basically been trying to map the poorly understood half of human rationality whose difficulty blindsided the 20th century AI ... (read more)

You really do have to gesture vaguely, and then say “GO DO THINGS YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO DO”, and guide them to reflect on what they’re doing when they don’t know what they’re doing.

This is pretty much what I'm referring as the "mystery", it's not that it's fundamentally obscure, it's just that the expected contract of teaching of "I will tell you how to do what I expect you to do in clear language" breaks down at this point, and instead you would need to say "I've been giving you many examples that work backwards from a point where the problem has alrea... (read more)

5jimmy
That's definitely a thing too, but I'm saying that "I don't know how to describe how it's done" isn't the only factor here. Often you do know how to describe how it's done, and you can converse in great detail about exactly how it's done with others who "get it", but teaching is difficult because the student lacks the prerequisites concepts so they cannot assemble them. So for example, say I wanted to teach you how to make an apple pie, but you didn't know what an apple was. If I'm lucky, I could describe it's shape/size/color/taste and you'd say "Ah! I know those! We call them something else.". If I'm unlucky, I say "Well, it's a round fruit.." and you cut me off to say "Wtf is 'round'. Also, wtf is 'fruit'". At some point, if you just don't have language at all, I'm going to have to go get an apple and point to it while saying "apple!". Then I'm going to have to go get another different apple, and point to that too. And then point to a nectarine and shake my head while saying "No apple!". It's not enough to have a language to describe what I'm doing, if you do not share it. I simply cannot describe to you the recipe for making an apple pie until you have a concept for the individual ingredients, so if you don't have a concept for those, and you don't have the concepts for the sub-ingredients necessary to build the ingredients, then I'm going to have to start pointing and saying "yes apple" or "no apple" until I'm pretty sure you know what an apple is. It can get tricky sometimes when people think that they have the necessary ingredients, but actually carve up the conceptual space wrong -- especially if the carving is kinda similar in a lot of ways, but lacks the underlying structure that connects it with the pieces you'd like to teach.

A fully meta-rational workplace is still sorta waffly about how the you actually accomplish the thing, but feels like an okay example of showing meta-rationality as "the thing you do when you come up with the rules, procedures and frameworks for (Chapman's) rational level at the point of facing undifferentiated reality without having any of those yet".

People have argued that this is still just rationality in the Lesswrong sense, but I think Chapman's on to something in that the rules, procedures and frameworks layer is very teachable and generally explicab... (read more)

2jimmy
I don't think it's so much that it's more "mysterious" in how you teach it or how you do it, but it is a large conceptual shift that is difficult to see without a lot of doing.  In physics, everything you do is figuring out how to solve problems. You start with abstract principles like "F=MA" or "lagrangians", spend entire semesters playing with the implications and how to use it to solve various types of problems, and then have a final with problems on it which you've never seen before and have to figure out how to solve it on the fly.  In engineering, it's all "Here's the equation for this, now apply it six times fast". It's very different conceptually, and if you try to explain the difference between "knowing how to solve the problem" and "knowing how to figure out how to solve the problem", you'll notice that it is extremely difficult to explain -- not because it's "mysterious", just because the engineering professor has no experience "trying to figure out novel problems based on principles we're taught", and so he has no pattern to match to. There's just no place in his brain to put the concept. You really do have to gesture vaguely, and then say "GO DO THINGS YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO", and guide them to reflect on what they're doing when they don't know what they're doing. "This is still just 'rationality' in the LW sense" is true, and Chapman underestimates how good LWers are at this, but he does have a point that the distinction between "rationality" and "meta-rationality" is an important one and we don't really have a concept for it here. Therefore we can't intentionally do things to build meta-rationality the way we could if we were aware of what we were doing and why.
2Daniel Kokotajlo
Well, it wasn't that. But cool!

Hello new user mocny-chlapik who dropped in to tell us that talking about AGI is incoherent because of Popper, welcome to Less Wrong. Are you by chance friends with new user Hickey who dropped in a week ago to tell us that talking about AGI is incoherent because of Popper?

3mocny-chlapik
Are you being passive-aggressive or am I reading this wrong? :) The user Hickey is making a different argument. He is arguing about the falsifiability of the superintelligence is coming claim. This is also an interesting question, but I was not talking about this claim in particular.

Also a good point, though this is maybe a different thing from the deliberate effort thing again. The whole concept of "be equal to the [top visible person] in [field of practice]" sounds like a weak warning signal to me if it's the main desire in your head. This sounds like a mimetic desire thing where [field of practice] might actually be irrelevant to whatever is ticking away in your head and the social ladder game is what's actually going on.

A healthier mindset might be "I really want to make concepts that confuse me clearer", "I have this really cool-... (read more)

1Morpheus
Yes, I didn't want to deny that 😉. I just think being motivated by competition isn't always a bad thing (Though there are definitely healthy and unhealthy versions). For some reason, I find trying to be the best in the world at doing X is actually pretty motivating, and how this is harder (and more prone to an unhealthy attitude perhaps) to do if you don't have clear metrics. It is also not necessarily that unattainable. You caught me right there! I don't care in the slightest.

If some topics are too complex, they could be written in multiple versions, progressing from the most simple to the most detailed (but still as accessible as possible).

Wasn't Arbital pretty much supposed to be this?

2Viliam
Yes. Not sure if its vision was to ultimately cover everything (like Wikipedia) or only MIRI-related topics. But yes, that is the spirit. EDIT: After reading the entire postmortem... oh, this made me really sad! It seems like a great idea that I didn't understand/appreciate at the moment.

It’s totally possible to think there’s a plain causal explanation about how humans evolved (through a combination of drift and natural selection, in which proportion we will likely never know) - while still thinking that the prospects for coming up with a constitutive explanation of normativity are dim (at best) or outright confused (at worst).

If we believe there is a plain causal explanation, that rules out some explanations we could imagine. It shouldn't now be possible for humans to have been created by a supernatural agency (as was widely thought in... (read more)

2Blake H.
Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. Especially: I take it that this is how most progress in artificial intelligence, neuroscience, and cogsci has (and will continue) to proceed. My caution - and whole point in wading in here - is just that we shouldn't expect progress by trying to come up with a better theory of mind or agency, even with more sophisticated explanatory tools. I think it's totally coherent and likely even that future artificial agents (generally intelligent or not) will be created without a general theory of mind or action.  In this scenario, you get a complete causal understanding of the mechanisms that enable agents to become minded and intentionally active, but you still don't know what that agency or intelligence consist in beyond our simple, non-reductive folk-psychological explanations. A lot of folks in this scenario would be inclined to say, "who cares, we got the gears-level understanding" and I guess the only people who would care would be those who wanted to use the reductive causal story to tell us what it means to be minded. The philosophers I admire (John McDowell is the best example) appreciate the difference between causal and constitutive explanations when it comes to facts about minds and agents, and urge that progress in the sciences is hindered by running these together. They see no obstacle to technical progress in neuroscientific understanding or artificial intelligence; they just see themselves as sorting out what these disciplines are and are not about. They don't think they're in the business of giving constitutive explanations of what minds and agents are, rather, they're in the business of discovering what enable minds and agents to do their minded and agential work. I think this distinction is apparent even with basic biological concepts like life. Biology can give us a complete account of the gears that enable life to work as it does without shedding any light on what makes it the case that something is alive, functioning

Reductionism is not just the claim that things are made out of parts. It’s a claim about explanation, and humans might not be smart enough to perform certainly reductions.

So basically the problem is that we haven't got the explanation yet and can't seem to find it with a philosopher's toolkit? People have figured out a lot of things (electromagnetism, quantum physics, airplanes, semiconductors, DNA, visual cortex neuroscience) by mucking with physical things while having very little idea of them beforehand by just being smart and thinking hard. Seems li... (read more)

2TAG
Philosophers are not of a single mind. Some are reductionists, some are illusionists, and so on.
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