All of Sean Lee's Comments + Replies

The point I’m trying to express (and clearly failing at) isn’t conceptualism or solipsism, at least not in the way my own semantic modeling interprets them. As I interpret them, the idealism of, say, Berkeley, Buddhism et al amounts to a re-branding of reality from being “out there” to “in my mind” (or “God’s mind”). I mean it differently, but because I refer constantly to our mental models, I can see why my argument looks a lot like that. Ironically, my failure may be a sort of illustration of the point itself. Namely, the limits of using language to disc... (read more)

2TAG
That's your objection to solipsism. What's your objection to conceptualism? Who's "us"? Some philosophers? All philosophers? Some laypeople? All laypeople? Except that you just did. Well, you did in general. Theres a problem in referring to specific things behind our language. But who's doing that? Kant isn't. He keeps saying that the thing in itself is unknowable. So what's the problem with Kantian conceptualism? Whatever reality is, it's still reality. You still haven't said how the two are related. A model of something real. "Is a model" doesn't mean "is false". Does "more than a model" mean "true"? I don't see why. And if you reject realism, you have solipsism, which you also reject. You can do that with larger systems, adding the theorem as an axiom, but you can also do that with different systems. But that's all rather beside the point... minimally realism requires some things to be true, and truth to be something to do with the territory. Theres no reason why meaning and truth in maths have to work like meaning and truth in not-maths, or vice versa. You need to notice the difference between truth and justifcation/proof. Truth, even realistic truth, is so easy to obtain that you can a certain amount by ransoming guessing. The tricky thing is knowing why it is true...justification.

I'm not sure if we're talking past each other or if there is genuine disagreement, but I'll expound a bit.

When asleep or in a coma, the mind doesn't interact with the environment at all.

The sleeping/comatose mind does interact constantly with the environment in two ways. For starters, it's well established that external sensory input (specifically sounds and touch) regularly makes its way into the conscious experience of dreaming and comatose state. But that's just a side issue here. At a more fundamental level, every living thing interacts 24/7 with its e... (read more)

This is bit of a side note but still may interesting: I suppose the history of scientific paradigm shifts can be framed as updates to our "map" v. "territory" partitions. A good scientific theory (in my account) is exactly what converts what was ostensibly "territory" into explicit mathematical models i.e. "maps". 

Thanks again for your comments, they're a great help. Hopefully my response below also addresses your other comments. 

So yes, I'm familiar with the use/reference aka map/territory distinction. The latter is a very good way to phrase the issue here, so I'll go with that nomenclature here.

Normally map v. territory is an extremely useful distinction that science has made fantastic progress with. But there are also well-known historical cases where it has been a conceptual trap. For example, Newton and Kant assumed that our "maps" of space and time are di... (read more)

2TAG
In traditional philosophy, there's a three way distinction between nominalism , conceptualism and realism. Those are three different theories in ended to explain three sets of issues: the existence of similarities, differences and kinds in the world, the territory; the way concept formation does and should work in humans; and issues to done with truth and meaning, relating the map and territory. But conceptualism comes in two varieties. One the one hand, there is is the theory that correct concepts "carve nature at the joints" or "identify clusters in thingspace", the theory Aristotle and Ayn Rand. On the other hand is the "cookie cutter" theory, the idea that the categories are made by (and for) man, Kant's "Copernican revolution". In the first approach, the world/territory is the determining factor, and the mind/map can do no better than reflect it accurately. In the second approach, the mind makes its own contribution. Which is not to say that it's all map, or that the mind is entirely in the driving seat. The idea that there is no territory implies solipsism (other people only exist in the territory, which doesn't exist) and magic (changing the map changes the territory, or at least, future observations). Even if concepts are human constructions, the territory still has a role, which is determining the truth and validity of concepts. Even if the "horse" concept" is a human construct, it is more real than the "unicorn" concept. In cookie cutter terms, the territory supplies the dough, the map supplies the outline. So Kantianism isn't a completely idealistic or all-in-the-map philosophy...in Kant's own terminology it's empirical realism as well as transcendental idealism. I's not as idealistic as Hegel's system, for instance. Similarly, Aristoteleanism isn't as realistic as Platonism -- Plato holds that there aren't just mind-independent conceits, but theyre in their own independent realm. So, although the conceptualisms are different, they are both somewher
1Sean Lee
This is bit of a side note but still may interesting: I suppose the history of scientific paradigm shifts can be framed as updates to our "map" v. "territory" partitions. A good scientific theory (in my account) is exactly what converts what was ostensibly "territory" into explicit mathematical models i.e. "maps". 

A locked-in person communicating only by eye movement would understand perfectly well in my account. If they're alive, their metabolism keeps their body, brain and mind constantly interacting with their environment. This holds even if they're asleep or in a coma. My point (which is really just orthodox biology) is that human language processing results from metabolic processes (what I've called model predictive controlling to highlight its modeling character), and that includes what we call syntax and semantics - our sense of "understanding".   

1green_leaf
When asleep or in a coma, the mind doesn't interact with the environment at all. Also, this can't be one of the requirements for understanding, because there is no conceptual connection between understanding something and interacting with the environment continuously (to the extent to which getting information through neural spikes can be approximated as continuous interaction with the environment) (rather than discretely). Also, you can have an embodied language model that accepts information from the environment continuously (so that language model would then possess understanding). That confuses causality with necessity (metabolism causally preceding understanding doesn't mean that metabolism or continuous input are necessary for it).

Thanks for the comment. Honestly it took me a while to disambiguate (i.e. translate to myself what you're getting at). So I take it as an interesting example of the point I was actually trying to make to Mitchell Porter previously. Namely, that our semantic models of normally unproblematic words can diverge quite a bit. E.g., my model for "truth" is not "a relationship between a living organism and a world beyond it". Rather in my model, "the world beyond" is ultimately also part of our internal modeling. That's because the very fact that we humans imagine... (read more)

1TAG
The word "beyond" *means" "not in our heads". You're just not respecting that. It's possible to put that in a non head spinning way: the world is the world and not in our heads; our thoughts about the world are in our heads. It's also possible to put it in a non head spinning way. Many words can be used in an "in the head"/"on the map" way, and also in a "in the world"/"in the territory" way...and it's also possible to disambiguate by using special phrases like "per se" and "as such" ..or "for me" and "in my view". That way finger/moon confusions are avoided. It's unnecessarily uncomfortable, etc. If you simply keep track of whether you are using a word to a territory feature , or a map feature, the confusion vanishes. Believing that you thought the world per se into existence is magical thinking! Correct use of.language can remove conclusion. The "world per se" should refer to the territory , not our models of it. The phrase "per se" *means" "not in our heads". You're just not respecting that.

Thanks for the questions. 

You're correct, I don't deny pizzas exist. I don't even deny that truth and reality exist. But I am arguing for what I believe is a more robust semantic model for the word "exist". My point is that semantic models aren't set in stone or fall from the sky; they're necessarily human creations. In fact every human carries a slightly different semantic model for all our words, but we rarely notice it because our use of them normally coincides so well. That's how we can all play Wittgenstein's language game and feel we understand ... (read more)

1TAG
If the words and concepts are, it doesn't follow that their referents are. "Moon" is a word we invented for something we didn't invent. You can't claim that the moon as such is a human invention any more than you can claim it is four letters long. And note that there is not a single contrary theory on the lines of "human concepts are wholly caused and necessitated by the external non-mental world". The contrary theory need be only that concepts can refer to non concepts. Are you familiar with the use/reference distinction? The concept of a pointer in programming?

Indeed, in a way that was my intention. In a coming essay I will try to lay out what I believe is a serviceable notion of truth and reality that we work with. The purpose of this first essay was to first lay out how much they are human creations. 

The notion of truth and reality I wish to debunk is the denial that they're human mental creations. My argument is a mild form of reductio ad absurdum. That is, I first make "factual" claims as if they're independent of our mental creations. In particular, I take the current scientific worldview that entropy-exporting metabolism is the basis for life. That then leads to the conclusion that entropy-exporting (via predictive modeling) must therefore also be basis of the syntax and semantics of human language. Thus our notions of truth and reality, and whatev... (read more)

1TAG
"Basis" is ambiguous. What makes language work causally, what makes it meaningful, where it is, and what makes it true, where it is, are different questions. If truth is a relationship between a living organism and a world beyond it , you can't reduce it to just the metabolism of the organism, for instance.
3Mitchell_Porter
I still don't understand. Suppose our notion of a pizza is in some sense a "mental creation". What is the significance of that, in your argument? I don't think you're denying that pizzas exist.

Thanks for the feedback. If I understand you correctly, your point is the just one I intended to make.