All of Skatche's Comments + Replies

Skatche10

Not quite. One of my problems with objectification is that it implies certain attitudes which -- among other things -- create a favourable environment for rapists. That being said, I wrote the above comment at a time when rape was particularly salient to me, and may have overstated its relevance to this issue; I would now argue, more generally, that objectification openly expressed within a social group signals to women (almost by definition!) that they are regarded as objects and will not receive the status of full personhood within that group. Because... (read more)

-1MugaSofer
Fair enough. I can certainly see how that could happen.
Skatche20

Incidentally, I find Leonard Susskind is brilliant at all of these things. So, for a good example, his lectures on physics are well worth watching. Heck, they're worth watching even if you don't care about explaining things to people.

Skatche00

I'm not sure about this "selection space" of universes, but if we're talking about all possible mathematical constructs (weighted, perhaps, according to Solomonoff's universal prior), it bears noting that even some one-dimensional, two-colour cellular automata - extremely simple systems as far as that goes - have been proven to be Turing complete. Doesn't mean they'll necessarily produce life, as a lot depends on initial conditions, but we know at least that they can, in principle, produce life. Given what else I've seen of mathematics, it seems the space of mathematically possible universes is positively teeming with critters.

0benelliott
Some are, most aren't.
Skatche100

AndrewHickey's comment notwithstanding, it wouldn't surprise me if he did say that, and if he meant it very literally, like in the batshit crazy sense. Famous mathematicians have a long and celebrated history of going off the deep end. Cf. Georg Cantor, Kurt Gödel, Alexander Grothendieck.

1gwern
http://blog.computationalcomplexity.org/2011/07/disproofing-myth-that-many-early.html
3Kevin
Yup. Though there's always the even smaller chance that he isn't totally crazy, and actually has a working solution for stochastic optimal control which is indeed total control for certain values of "control the universe".
-2Hul-Gil
Very true. It seems like madness is correlated with intelligence.
Skatche00

Well, of course. But assuming B is a rational agent, and assuming the expected damages awarded in court per trespass are additive, she's going to wait until A has finished building his house, then take him to court for all counts of trespassing, rather than fight each one individually, since that'll save her a great deal on time and legal fees.

Skatche90

It seems to me that the easement will cost, at most, the amount of money that B could get from A in court for illegally crossing B's land. Given the additional expenditure of time and legal fees, not to mention the uncertainty of the legal outcome, it will probably be somewhat less than that.

4wedrifid
I'm not sure how the parent managed to get to +11 votes. It introduces an additional external complication to the problem and then handles it incorrectly. The limit from this new mechanism is actually the amount that B could get from A in court for A trespassing every time A wishes to travel across B's land for the duration of the life of the easement - which appears to be indefinite. The value of a once off trespassing suit is not all that relevant.
0Psychohistorian
B could get an injunction prohibiting the crossing of his land. Easements traditionally give rise to injunctive relief. That would make A criminally liable if he or his agents crossed his land - it wouldn't be too hard for B to prevent any construction company from working there. That the outcome of litigation is certain is stipulated to. That's actually why this problem is interesting - there is some dispute as to whether injunctions or damages are better solutions to these problems. If you want to make it cleaner, I suppose you could say that B has put up a fence AND obtained a declaratory injunction already, and they're trying to bargain to have B invalidate the injunction. But I thought the original was clean enough.

This clever point shouldn't distract from the intended sense of the post.

Skatche20

This may vary from person to person, but I found I didn't need a rigourous schedule to make enough progress to determine that meditation was beneficial for my mental well-being. Doing about half an hour once every few days (when I remembered to) was enough, within a few months, to grant me relaxation and greater clarity of mind. Those aren't really the point, but it's reason enough to push forward and see what else there is to see.

Skatche00

Sorry, I have a bit of a skewed perspective about what's obvious. :P Once I perceived the connection to binary trees it seemed plain as day.

4jschulter
I find that for me, and many other people I know in the mathematics department of my university, once infinities, uncountability, and such enter the picture, the accuracy of intuition quickly starts to diminish, so it's wise to be careful and make sure the proof is complete before declaring it obvious. As a good example, note how surprising and notable Cantor's diagonal argument seemed the first time you heard it- it isn't obvious that the reals aren't countable when you don't already know that, so you might start trying to construct a counting scheme and end up with one that "obviously" works.
Skatche20

A proof in ROT13:

Gb rnpu cbffvoyr rapbqvat bs n pbhagnoyr frg ol svavgr ovg fgevatf gurer pbeerfcbaqf n ovanel gerr: ng gur ebbg abqr lbh tb yrsg (fnl) vs gur svefg ovg vf n mreb naq evtug vs vg'f n bar, gura ng gur arkg abqr lbh tb yrsg be evtug vs gur frpbaq ovg vf n mreb be bar, naq fb sbegu. Gur npghny vagrtref pbeerfcbaq gb grezvany abqrf, ernpurq ol n svavgr ahzore bs oenapuvatf. Znysbezrq ovg fgevatf, gbb, pbeerfcbaq gb grezvany abqrf, ng gur rneyvrfg cbvag gung jr pna gryy gurl'er znysbezrq. Ubjrire, fvapr gurer ner vasvavgryl znal vagrtref, naq... (read more)

5Sniffnoy
You seem to have left out the part of the proof where you do the actual work! ROT13'd: Fxngpur fubjf gung gurer zhfg or neovgenevyl ybat cnguf; gur ceboyrz abj vf gb fubj gung gurer vf na vasvavgryl ybat cngu. Jr pbafgehpg guvf cngu nf sbyybjf: Fvapr gurer ner vasvavgryl znal cnguf, gurer ner rvgure vasvavgryl znal cnguf fgnegvat jvgu 0, be vasvavgryl znal cnguf fgnegvat jvgu 1. Vs gur sbezre ubyqf, fgneg jvgu 0, bgurejvfr fgneg jvgu 1. Fvapr juvpurire qvtvg jr cvpxrq, gurer ner vasvavgryl znal fgnegvat jvgu vg, jr pna ybbx ng gur arkg qvtvg naq ercrng guvf cebprff. Fvapr jr pna ercrng guvf neovgenevyl, guvf trgf hf na vasvavgryl ybat cngu. Va trareny guvf nethzrag trgf lbh jung'f xabja nf Xbavt'f Yrzzn.
Skatche40

I'm inclined to disagree. Deep abstraction gives us powerful tools for solving less abstract problems, including those that come out of the empirical sciences. Even fields developed with a deliberate eye to avoiding practical applications have sometimes turned out to make significant contributions to the sciences (I understand knot theory, for example, began this way, but has since turned out to have important applications in biochemistry).

1Zetetic
You make a strong point, however; the question as to whether we can or cannot improve the efficiency of mathematical research appears to be an open one. I think that perhaps the real issue is that we don't have a correct reductionist account of mathematics, and thus are not able to see clearly what we are doing when we build our theories. If we had a better road-map, I think that at the very least we could tie mathematics down to level 1/level 2 space so that we could have a better idea as to how we can measure the profitability of various possible lines of inquiry.
Skatche30

However, it is worth emphasising that you have provided little evidence with your writing that the actual ideas coming from peak experiences are worth much. You have provided a great deal of indication that the motivational aspect of these ideas is useful, though.

You may be right. I will have to think about this. A lot of the imperative ideas ("Go do this!") that I've had while manic have had decidedly positive results - notably my bike trip to Georgia and the decision to devote a lot more of my time and mental energy to mathematics, foundin... (read more)

4Sniffnoy
BTW, I must say I would love to hear about the founding of this communal house, even if this isn't necessarily the place for it.
Skatche00

I would wonder if something like that actually happened - it might have been an unfamiliar trick of the light or electrical malfunction...

It's entirely possible. I recall I stayed at that intersection for a few minutes, watching the light and trying to figure out how such a thing might have happened, before concluding I had hallucinated it - but I can't make any guarantees that I was very thorough, given my mental state at the time. I don't think an electrical malfunction would have produced what I saw, but a trick of the light is plausible.

Skatche10

For reference: this video was evidently made on Xtranormal. Xtranormal is a site which takes a simple text file containing dialogue, etc. and outputs a movie; the voices are synthesized because that's how the site works. Voice actors would be nice, of course, but that's a rather more involved process.

Skatche30

Seconded and thirded. These books had a very deep and lasting impact on my development and worldview. Fair warning to those unfamiliar with his writings: they're chock-full of memetic hazards, but that's kind of the point. Wilson argues that we stand to benefit a great deal from being able to occupy unusual or even "false" belief systems (I use scare quotes because I think he would be reluctant to use that word), provided we can learn to consciously choose these systems and not get attached to them.

1[anonymous]
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Skatche60

These are great. Do you mind if I incorporate them into the relevant post when the time comes?

Skatche00

This is a fair point, but I'm referring to information in the information theoretic sense; in this technical sense, mathematical truths are indeed not information.

There are proofs that rely on the GCH or Large Cardinal Axioms or V=L which are not among the accepted axioms and proven to be independent of the other axioms.

I'm aware that the Axiom of Choice is required for some important results of practical import (Tychonoff's theorem, for example, is equivalent to it), but do you know of any important and useful results following from the GCH, etc.? I've only looked into this a little; foundational math is not really my field.

2JohnH
Game theoretic results that are generalized to infinite games often require the use of the GCH. For instance see "Variations on a Game" by J Beck 1981.
Skatche50

I'm male. I gather certain psychotic-spectrum disorders are more common in men than in women, so this doesn't strike me as entirely irrelevant.

2[anonymous]
Thank you for the reply and again kudos for the thought provoking article.
Skatche70

That's a critique of LSD, not mystical experiences in general, as a creativity enhancer, and even then, I think the author is leaving out a fair bit of evidence to the contrary. Though he never officially confirmed this, Francis Crick is believed to have been on LSD when he discovered the helical structure of DNA. Less controversially, many of the programmers in the early days of Silicon Valley are known to have done a fair bit of coding on acid; Steve Jobs himself is known to have taken a fair bit of it in his day. Here's another article claiming that ... (read more)

4rysade
As an outright supporter of 'consciousness expansion' through drug induced altered states, I can say that mathematics is about the worst thing you can try to gain insight into using irrationality as a tool. I would not say that a mind in an altered state is as bad as a random-theorem-generator, but altered states almost never result in validity in my experience. The best state of mind to do math in is a sober and logical one. Now, if we are talking about building mental fortitude, about overcoming personal barriers and winning at life, then I would say that introducing yourself to measures of irrationality is a good idea. You get a good idea of how the 'other side' lives and can develop strategies for compensating for your errors, not to mention building a tolerance for stress.
Skatche20

Eeeesh. You're right. In my defense, I think I checked the properties while I was still half-asleep, and I must have fudged the triangle inequality. I fiddled with it a bit, but couldn't find any obvious way to make it work. Thanks for your correction.

Happens to the best of us. However, it is worth emphasising that you have provided little evidence with your writing that the actual ideas coming from peak experiences are worth much. You have provided a great deal of indication that the motivational aspect of these ideas is useful, though.

Skatche00

The nonexistence thing was an error of judgment. In retrospect, it originated in an unconscious assumption I was making that there must be some ground to reality, a kind of "bottom level" of which everything else is epiphenomenal. A materialist might look to quantum fields to fill that role, but when I rejected all my former beliefs, that included my belief in an external reality independent of perception. So all I was left with was thought and sensory experience, and as they were interdependently defined, rather than any one aspect taking ont... (read more)

1Will_Sawin
I was thinking about how to calculate a metric on a probability space. One thing that makes sense is Arccos( P(A|B) P(B|A)) . This is the metric you get if you view events as vectors in a Hilbert space and look at the angle between the two vectors, angle, of course, being a metric. It generalizes to the space of random variables in general, which is where I first discovered it. There you get Arccos ( E(XY)^2/ E(X^2) E(Y^2) ) Just on probability events, I think one thing that also makes sense is - Log (P(A|A or B)P(B|A or B)). This should be a metric and should have geodesics in the space of events. The geodesic between A and B passes through (A or B). But I don't have as clear an argument as to why this works. So your idea isn't actually that far from correct, if you look at my angle idea.
8Sniffnoy
This doesn't appear to actually be true. :-/ Say we take our probability space to be [0,1], and we take A=[0,2/3], C=[1/3,1], and B=[0,1]. Then d(A,B)=d(B,C)=1/3, so d(A,B)+d(B,C)=2/3, but d(A,C)=3/4>2/3. Any ideas on how to fix? (Also strictly speaking it would be a pseudometric on the set of positive probability events, with two events being equivalent if they differ by a set of probability 0, but that's nitpicking.)
Skatche10

Thanks, that was an awesome read!

I'll attempt a translation. If I'm engaging with the world, then I notice new things about it, or I see things in new ways. For example: once, looking at the sky, I noticed that it was brightest near the horizon and darkest at the zenith. Suddenly I realized the reason: there was more air between me and the horizon than there was between me and the space directly above me. The scene snapped into focus, and I found I could distinctly see the atmosphere as a three-dimensional mass. If I turn my attention inward, on the o... (read more)

0Divide
Could you elaborate on that?
0[anonymous]
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Skatche60

These are some interesting points. I meant "arational" in the sense that our actions are arational - rationally motivated, perhaps, but it would be incorrect to say that the action itself is either rational or irrational, hence it's arational. What intrigues me is the fact that these arational phenomena are deeply embedded in the way our minds are structured, and therefore can perhaps inform and augment the process of rationality. Indeed, some of them may be extremal states of the same systems that allow us to be rational in the first place.

I'd definitely like to see this post on Buddhism; you seem to have an excellent grasp on it.

Skatche20

I have two different answers to your question: one practical, one more theoretical. On a practical level, what I gain from peak experiences depends on where my attention is. If I'm out and about, or doing something materially, then the main advantage I gain is noticing new aspects of a situation, or seeing the same aspects in a different light; I believe this is a result of greater flexibility in choosing the cognitive map I apply to the territory. These, I suppose, would be the "unknown dots": information that was present in the environment, ... (read more)

1JohnH
This is a false assertion, they are only true if the axioms used to conclude them correspond to reality. There are proofs that rely on the Axiom of Choice which is not accepted (as far as I can tell) by everyone on this site (as well as the axiom of infinity?). There are proofs that rely on the GCH or Large Cardinal Axioms or V=L which are not among the accepted axioms and proven to be independent of the other axioms.
2[anonymous]
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Skatche30

Thanks for the suggestion; I'll definitely keep that in mind as I'm writing.

Skatche20

I don't really care how it renders, I mainly just want to be able to type LaTeX code directly into comments and posts.

Skatche300

Add LaTeX support (I mean inline LaTeX, not this thing).

EDIT: Based on comments below, I think I misused the word "inline". What I meant was simply the ability to type LaTeX directly into comments and posts. How it gets rendered doesn't matter much to me; some legitimate objections have been raised, but I don't feel like hard math gets used enough on the site that this would get out of hand. Restricting its use to posts rather than comments might be a good compromise.

3Vladimir_Nesov
We have that hack for when someone needs it, and in actuality, people don't write any significant amount of math here. If it was needed, I expect there would be some use of the hack. Since there is almost no use made of it, I conclude that it's not particularly needed. So it's a nice thing to have, but very low priority.
2jwhendy
If only I had the ability to upvote about 10x...
ata110

MathJax is one good option for implementing that.

3RHollerith
Does LaTeX support mean using LaTeX to generate images which are "transcluded" (inlined) into the text? This is better than using Unicode's math symbols? Really? Does Math Overflow have LaTeX support?
4[anonymous]
This, this, a thousand times this.
Skatche50

Yeah, I could write about this. Look for it tomorrow (Wednesday) or Thursday evening.

Skatche220

Not that I disagree with you in general, but I can think of a few cases in which you may actually want to cultivate blankness toward a given subject. In particular, deep and difficult questions have been known to occasionally drive people mad - it's an occupational hazard for mathematicians in particular, and perhaps also for people in other fields. One might reasonably object that correlation does not imply causation in this case, but I have had a couple of experiences in which intense study of math and physics led me to some pretty dark psychological p... (read more)

1wizzwizz4
One way of dealing with this problem is to get that out of the way when you're young (i.e., 6–11). Then you've learned coping mechanisms (which will end up used regularly), but don't have a distinct recollection of the horrible thought patterns that you might just fall back into if you think about them too hard, by the time you're older.
scav290

I have had a couple of experiences in which intense study of math and physics led me to some pretty dark psychological places

Why do I feel the irrational urge to beg you to do a post on this? What could possibly go wrong? :-)

Skatche00

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure if the analogy applies, since it depends a great deal on the selection process. When I learn that Julius Caesar lived from 100-44BCE, or that Stephen Harper lives in the present day, that certainly doesn't increase my estimated probability of humans dying out within the next hundred years; and if I lack information about humans yet to be born, that's not surprising in the slightest, whether or not we go extinct soon.

Really it's the selection process that's the issue here; I don't know how to make sense of the question "Which human should I consider myself most likely to be?" I've just never been able to nail down precisely what bothers me about the question.

Skatche00

I've been meaning to post about the Doomsday Argument for awhile. I have a strong sense that it's wrong, but I've had a hell of a time trying to put my finger on how it fails. The best that I can come up with is as follows: Aumann's agreement theorem says that two rational agents cannot disagree, in the long run. In particular, two rational agents presented with the same evidence should update their probability distribution in the same direction. Suppose I learn that I am the 50th human, and I am led to conclude that it is far more likely that only 100... (read more)

0Perplexed
Why do you say that? Suppose you have an urn containing consecutively numbered balls. But you don't know how many. Draw one ball from the urn and update your probabilities regarding the number of balls. Draw a second ball, and update again. Two friends each draw one ball and then share information. I don't see why the ball you drew yourself should be privileged. Two variants of this urn problem that may offer some insight into the Doomsday Argument: 1. The balls are not numbered 1,2,3,... Instead they are labeled "1st generation", "2nd generation", ... After sampling, estimate the label on the last ball. 2. The balls are labeled "1 digit", "2 digits", "3 digits" ... Again, after sampling, estimate the label on the last ball.
Skatche10

I see what you're saying, certainly. But we're talking about someone who is already having a lot of sleep problems, and has exhausted all the other options they could find. They may find they're better able to keep up a consistent polyphasic regime than a more standard sleep pattern, and if their sleep problems are already bad enough, it may be worth the drawbacks to give it a shot.

Skatche10

There's a rather uncommon theological position - espoused by Paolo Soleri (and perhaps by others) - that God, the rapture, etc. are better regarded as a potential future, as something we have a responsibility to create, than as something pre-existing; in this view, religious texts can be viewed as imperfect but still visionary accounts of what such a thing might look like. The Singularity hypothesis seems to fit better in this model of religion than in more mainstream models. Soleri's theology seems far less pathological than religions tend to be, since it calls for both concrete action and accurate models of reality, so maybe this isn't such a bad thing.

Skatche10

Not really an answer to your specific question, but have you tried, or considered trying, something radically different, like a polyphasic sleep cycle (e.g. a 20-minute nap every four hours and nothing else)?

5tabsa
Polyphasic sleep suggestions are quite popular on the internet, but they also do seem quite irrational. The negative risk of trying it is very high, you could seriously damage your health by doing it (risk of the fatal car accident could possibly increase) sleep deprivation, while reward is low to medium at best and depends if you can take advantage of more time available to you. And i'm just scratching the surface here. Also consider: * High entry barriers - minimum 2 weeks just to change your habits * Requires very disciplined approach * Very little science supporting it, mainly anectodal evidence Maybe a good analogy would be to suggest someone who has financial problems to try a radical approach of robbing a bank.
Skatche-10

Furthermore judging either of these two as engaging in sexual assault is not a neutral or innocent act. It is invasive and damaging to your victims. As well as slandering their reputation the act of giving that label implies the need for and potentially causes a direct punishment and restriction of freedom.

Well I'm no fan of the criminal justice system either, but I'm trying to keep this on the topic of sexuality; if my anarchist leanings come into the conversation we'll be here all week. :p

But anyway, please see my comment here. A person can nonverbal... (read more)

3TheOtherDave
Am I correctly inferring here that you believe, by contrast, that desires expressed in language, in response to a question asked in language, cannot be incorrectly interpreted? Or at least that such mistakes don't happen "a lot more often than you'd think"? If so, I'd say this is simply false.
0wedrifid
I have never done so in the past and do not intend to start. I believe my behavior is appropriate and a desirable norm.
Skatche10

A century of feminism is enough to convince me that, at the very least, a large minority of women are seriously, deeply upset at the lot they're traditionally given. In more recent years, some men have started to come forward and say they're not too happy about their own default either. If it were only a tiny handful of people who felt this way - say one in a hundred million - then it wouldn't make sense to adopt the more progressive approach by default, although we would still have a responsibility, if we chanced to meet one of these people and if they ... (read more)

Skatche-10

Everything I said about consent applies just as much to women as to men. If he's actually uninterested, tearing his clothes off or grabbing his crotch isn't a signal, it's sexual assault.

3wedrifid
Everything I say about consent applies to men as much as women. A guy does not have to verbally express a wish to have his clothes torn off for it to be ok. He too can use more natural means of communicating. Furthermore judging either of these two as engaging in sexual assault is not a neutral or innocent act. It is invasive and damaging to your victims. As well as slandering their reputation the act of giving that label implies the need for and potentially causes a direct punishment and restriction of freedom. That is something I consider unacceptable (when done so aggressively and obviously dependent on degree of credible social threat.)
Skatche-10

Okay, so it's not a fundamental necessity, but it's not a noble lie either; it's a matter of ethics. The consequences of misunderstanding, probabilistically weighted, are still serious enough that it's ethically better to maintain a habit of making a bit of sexy talk before hopping in bed with any new partner.

For the record, I have indeed misinterpreted what I thought were totally unambiguous "go" signals. Fortunately things did not progress far, but it was a big wake-up call for me.

5HughRistik
So it's an ethical necessity? Or something that's just a good thing to do but not ethically required? I lean in the same direction, but there are some things that make me uncomfortable about this argument. The practice you advocate is only one point along a continuum of certainty over consent. Why does a "bit" of sexy talk put you other the ethical cutoff, but those body language cues aren't good enough? Why not draw the cutoff line somewhere less restrictive, or somewhere even more restrictive? If the costs of misunderstanding are so high, then why only make a "bit" of sexy talk? If you should ask once, why shouldn't you ask twice? If you should ask twice, why not ask three times? If you should ask three times, why not give a week-long cool-off period and see if you two still want to have sex? Why not have consent forms? Actually, to completely avoid any probabilistic costs, why not stay home? To make up some numbers, let's say that the body language cues I mentioned give a conditional probability of 95% person that someone is communicating consent to sex, and verbal communication gives 96%. Meanwhile, even more extensive communication could get you up to 99%. Lawyers could get you up to 99.9%. Until we identify the moral principle behind picking a point on this continuum, there is no way to avoid a reductio ad absurdum. The other factor not present in your comment is the benefits of sex, and the costs of attempting communication. Your comment only recognizes the probabilistic cost of abstaining from verbal communication. Recognizing the costs of various forms of verbal communication could explain why we aren't bringing in consent forms and lawyers. But if you say that those extra measures aren't necessary, or that they are costly, then why is explicit verbal communication necessary over the forms of nonverbal communication I suggested? Why does just a bit of sexy talk just happen to hit the sweet spot of costs vs. benefits of communication? Some people find
Skatche00

Gender roles of any sort are fine if consciously negotiated by consenting adults. When presented as the default, however, or as biological facts, with no chance for negotiation, they become oppressive. Kay's suggestions would be fine as suggestions for husband and wife to discuss and decide on together, but as presented they dangerously mislead their audience.

2falenas108
He actually does that, but not in every post. Almost every post he writes is mostly applicable to a stereotype, he just assumes readers know by now that he isn't saying it will work for everyone. Not very conducive for attracting newcomers, but that's his decision. If you want proof, click this and do a control f search for the word mileage.
5jsalvatier
Why is explicit negotiation, as opposed to say 'looking for what your partner seems to respond better to', important on this topic? Lots of people cannot or do not want to verbalize what they like when it comes to relationship behaviors. I do agree that treating such roles as immutable facts with no chance for negotiation is bad. Is treating such gender roles as default bad because you don't think desire to play those roles is common enough to justify it or for some other reason?
Skatche580

My vote was for disabling, but I think this should also change your username to something suitably anonymous (like "Account deleted").

1Eliezer Yudkowsky
This. In fact you should still be able to login and edit, in case you put specific private info in a comment you want to delete. Just your display name should change to (Account deleted).
7gjm
Except that deleted accounts should all have different deleted-account usernames, so that if some unfortunate thread has two participants who later delete their accounts it doesn't become completely impossible to make sense of the discussion.
0[anonymous]
Agreed.
kpreid150

How about username-change as an option without also necessary disabling? Possibly with restrictions against abuse.

3wedrifid
That is a very good idea.
ata130

Agreed, it should be possible to fully withdraw from the site without breaking all conversations one was involved in. People shouldn't have to choose between leaving their username visible in some places and deleting all their comments.

Skatche00

2 - By now, if you've done as instructed, you should have a pretty interesting life. Nonetheless, I think it's worth exploring this in more detail. If there's one thing pick-up artists get right, it's the value of confidence; but it's important to remember that this doesn't mean dominance, aggressiveness, or surliness. Confidence means being comfortable in your own skin, remaining centred in a conversation, listening with calm interest but also having something interesting to say about yourself and about your projects, your passions, the adventures you'... (read more)

5HughRistik
If you said that verbal communication was one of the most effective ways to communicate enthusiastic consent, I would agree. But is it really required? That notion seems to counter-intuitive to me, because I can think up some ways to nonverbally communicate enthusiastic consent that don't seem ambiguous (to me). What if your partner tries something like the following: * Waves a condom at you while pointing at their crotch. * Slowly physically guides you with their hands into initiating sex. I can understand the reluctance to admit nonverbal ways of communicating, since so many of those methods are indeed ambiguous. But saying that verbal communication is required seems to either miss out on the possibility of non-ambiguous nonverbal communication like the above, or be some sort of noble lie.

Trouble is, most of what you write is extended far beyond what's written in the original list, or it's equally vague and thus of no practical use.

Take for example your advice to "start flirting." (Which, by the way, it would be quite a stretch to see as an interpretation of the original point five, except insofar as it's vague and allegoric enough to mean anything you want to see in it.) For a man who is socially inept, or even just clueless about women, flirting is like differential equations for someone who is stumped by basic algebra -- and u... (read more)

Skatche00

Yeah, I see what you mean, and you may be right (depending how you relate to your friends). Even then, though, there are aspects of friendly interactions that don't carry over to more general flirtation. I'm talking about a mode of conversation you can use with friends and acquaintances and even total strangers. That requires that it stays light and friendly and brief.

0Sniffnoy
I have little idea what concrete distinction you might be getting at. Meanwhile the fact that you characterize it as "more general" suggests you are using the word in a way more general sense than is helpful.
Skatche-40

Well, fair enough. He also didn't shoot anyone in the face, so...

4Alicorn
Do consider his competition. At some point, if you don't want to be accused of not reading them or being fair, you need to award the PUA Blogger of the Month award to someone, even if it's for not-deserving-an-award-the-least.
Skatche20

4 - A lot of pick-up artistry seems to be focused on the bar/club scene. This might be a reasonable place to find a one-night stand, if you know the unspoken etiquette (I don't, so I can't comment); if this is what you're after, then best of luck to you. But clubs and bars are really terrible places to find anything longer-term: they're loud, they're crowded, everyone's drunk, and women in particular tend to have their guard up, as they're used to incessant unwanted advances. Also, under the assumption that most of the people here will want to find inte... (read more)

Skatche-20

"Ordinary" social interaction encompasses a wide range of different kinds of exchanges, most of which are not flirting (although some especially outgoing people appear to flirt all the time). Think of how many people you interact with on a daily basis in a perfunctory, business-as-usual fashion, putting out just the bare minimum of communication necessary to buy coffee, ask for directions, etc. Also think of situations in which flirtation would probably be quite inappropriate: in deep, intellectual conversations, when requesting a loan, during a job interview, and so on.

Also think of conversations that happen on this site. Pretty dour, a lot of them. About as flirtatious as margarine on Melba toast.

0khafra
I've had a lot of really flirtatious deep, intellectual conversations. Fewer flirtatious loan applications and job interviews, but that seems to leave "purely functional communication" as the sole alternative.
0Sniffnoy
Hm, I guess I was insufficiently specific. I mean, uh, ordinary talking with friends? What would you call it... well, do you see what I'm intending to refer to? :P
Skatche20

Okay. Challenge accepted.

6 - If you're hitting up PUA sites, it's probably because you've gone a long time without romantic involvement, and you're getting desperate. This is perfectly understandable: sex drive is deeply seated and can become overwhelming if it's not fulfilled. Unfortunately, at a certain point, people start to reify sex: it ceases to be about attraction to any one individual, but simply about "getting" sex from anyone who's just appealing enough.

Unfortunately, people are very perceptive, and if you're desperate, they'll notic... (read more)

2Sniffnoy
You don't seem to have distinguished flirting from ordinary social interaction. Are you certain you're using the term in the standard way?
Skatche10

I'm not previously familiar with him, no, but I did follow the link you posted to his site. The entire front page was about how women can doll themselves up to be more attractive to their hubbies. I was not impressed. Hoping to give him the benefit of the doubt, I followed the links to some of the "most important posts" on the site, and found more misogynistic bullshit: relationships boiled down, essentially, to how much she's putting out, whining about Nice Guy™ Syndrome, and perpetuation of pathological gender roles. So, zero points for eth... (read more)

4jsalvatier
I think I need more help seeing why I should think the links you provide are examples of Not Good Things. * Most of his blog is devoted to how husbands can be more attractive to their wives. Coming to the blog for the first time, its natural to miss his explanation that for April he is focusing on 'Girl Game' (link). Partially for a change of pace and partially because he's gotten requests for it from commenters. I can easily see how this would be off putting if this is the first thing you see. Given this context, do you still see this as problematic? * Boiling down to putting out: Yes, he mentions 'wife putting out more' as the consequence of raising the husband's relative mate value more than anything else, but the mechanism he describes is that the wife wants to have more sex, which doesn't seem terribly problematic to me. Elsewhere he talks about doing things to build comfort in a relationship. Do you find any of the behaviors suggested in that link problematic? Is your notion that too much focus on sex is problematic? * Whining: I am sympathetic to your link. I think a lot of this kind of discussion is really about word choice. If you reframe nice vs. jerk as passive vs. active or non-aggressive vs. aggressive, I think a lot of discussion would dissolve. If passive vs. active (or somesuch) was the framing used, do you think this would be less problematic? Perhaps such discussions need comments like "guys think they're being nice, but they're really just being passive, and that's often not attractive"?
6jsalvatier
With regards to gender roles: is your criticism 1) desire to play that role (in women) is not as common as Athol claims 2) such gender roles are bad regardless of whether people want to play them 3) something else?
2Alicorn
I think he can have, like, one point for ethics. He's a little sloppy about it in places and does sling generalizations, but there's nothing that egregious and he doesn't seem to hate women or consider us interchangeable.
Skatche-30

Evidently you're not familiar with the dynamic of abusive relationships.

0[anonymous]
jsvaltier said "more likely", not "guaranteed".
2jsalvatier
I did say 'more'.
1Costanza
I was going to say "Evidently you're not familiar with Athol Kay," but I don't know what you may or may not be familiar with, just as you probably don't know what jsalvatier is familiar with. I think we would all agree that abusive behavior is bad, and can go on for a long time in a cursed, miserable relationship. Based on the information in his blog, Athol Kay (apparently his real name) is not in anything like an abusive relationship with his wife. To the contrary, it's all about mutual satisfaction and support in all the areas of a marriage or LTR.
Skatche-20

I'm not referring to group selection. If you're living in a close community, then once you've had your chance to conceive, there's not a lot of benefit in fighting off other suitors, since you'll be helping raise the child anyway; conversely, rivalry against other males is risky and socially divisive - which, since your band is probably rather small, can have serious consequences for you as an individual. This is not to say that all men will simply flee the scene once they've consummated their desire: for starters, we're a hell of a long way from evoluti... (read more)

0Eugine_Nier
If its valuable for the other suitors its valuable for you. Yes, but you want to be as certain as possible about which children are yours so you can favor them. And, yes, even in a close knit community there are many ways to do that short of causing the tribe to break down. Well, yes this is in fact what one observes.
Skatche20

There probably aren't genetic correlates per se (they'd get bred out of the population pretty quickly if so); but as I understand, there are fairly solid links between incidence of homosexuality and the hormonal environment in the womb during certain critical periods of pregnancy. That being said, sexuality is fluid to some extent, but not by a lot, and it doesn't seem to be under conscious control.

The situation makes a lot more sense when you realize that "heterosexual", "homosexual", "bisexual", etc., aren't atomic properti... (read more)

Skatche00

Er, good point; thanks for the reminder.

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