LESSWRONG
LW

All of socky_t_throwaway's Comments + Replies

LW Women Entries- Creepiness
socky_t_throwaway220

Well, this is the naive theory I had before exposure to these posts.

However I have learnt that ineptly flirting is very bad and makes you worse than Hitler, incompetence is no excuse, etc. So I can't go out and practice dating skills.

If I do want to practice dating skills, that makes me a PUA and worse than Hitler.

Obviously now, having read about elevatorgate, I am less likely to try to flirt with women in elevators, but I would totally expect that I would do something equally as bad in a non-elevator-based situation. So, Hitler.

Therefore I decide to giv... (read more)

Reply
5ChristianKl
The general lesson of the elevatorgate story is to flirt in environments where flirting is expected social behavior. Nightclubs are a good example. As a nerd Salsa or Tango dancing are good choices. Those places have fairly straightforward rules that allow you to interact with the opposing sex.
2A1987dM
According to the Law, if someone compares you to Hitler it's them who lose.
5MrMind
That made me laugh pretty hard! But yes, for every behaviour however unobtrusive you can find a woman complaining about it. And it's true that is unethical not to care about that discomfort, but if you care too much, you're driven to become an asexual social bureaucrat. It's also true that if you care too little, you're driven to become a rapist. Within these two extremes, there are all kinds of women: there are those who prefer rapist (and will get raped), those who prefer asexual social bureaucrat (and will never get approached) and everything in between. The point is that you cannot know a priori which category the woman you're interested in fits, there's simply no standard signal to tell them apart. That's why you should act as if you were exploring a totally different terrain every time: err on the side of boldness, calibrate along the way and leave a line of retreat.
coffeespoons120

A lot of the creepiness stuff comes from online social justice people. Sadly, there is a lot of nastiness in the social justice area of the internet (See this article). I am female and a feminist and I've been accused of being Worse Than Hitler on occasion. That doesn't mean there's no value in the social justice movement, so I still read blogs, but I discard a lot of it!

Reply
3Shmi
Give a serious consideration to becoming more gay. Definitely better than Hitler. Hey, it worked for Orphan_Wilde.
1Jack
No one said this. No it doesn't. Being a PUA does not make you this. There is a difference between not concealing sexual attraction and shouting it. But anyway, being creepy does not make you Hitler. It doesn't even make you a bad person. You are not morally obligated to make people comfortable in all circumstances. Making people uncomfortable for no reason is kind of a dick move. And making people uncomfortable is not going to lead to friends or girlfriends-- so if you have been specifically told that you are doing something creepy then it is a good idea to find out what it was and stop it. But that's it. Seriously. I can see how the feminist rhetoric about creepiness overstates the issue, overgeneralizes and over-sensitizes some and I made those criticisms in this thread. But they're not nearly as dramatic about it as you're being. Have you ever talked to a woman about this who isn't preaching about it on the internet or enrolled as a women's studies major? Edit: Flirting with women in elevators is totally fine. Asking them back to your room late at night, when you haven't met and have no chance is a little creepy. Neither make you Hitler (or any less hyperbolic bad thing).
7Randy_M
How about stop having your norms dictated by unreasonable demands that are likely to be simply signaling, status games, or go-team exercise?
LW Women Entries- Creepiness
socky_t_throwaway60

I will try to fill in a fuller response later, but I should clarify that a) it's a general feeling rather than being tied to any specific comment, b) on this post I'm responding more to the comments than the submitter.

Reply
LW Women Entries- Creepiness
socky_t_throwaway260

This is a fairly thin sockpuppet as I've made similar remarks elsewhere, but:

I find posts like this (or similar discussions places like metafilter) depressing because I'm left with the feeling there's no positive option.

I read posts by women, complaining about various male behaviour. Obviously I don't want to be creepy and Worse Than Hitler(tm), so I try to determine what I should be doing.

So many things are apparently bad that I am left with the conclusion that merely by existing I am offensive to women, and there is no action I can take to improve the si... (read more)

Reply
Jack110

So obviously I recognize this view point (I'm one of those who called it an undesirable failure mode). But I actually am really perplexed by how someone could think this is the only option. I probably have a good bit of social and looks privilege[1] so maybe I just can't see it. Why can't you just worry a little less about coming off as creepy, smile at people and if they smile back go and say hello? Cultivate confidence, or fake it. Tell jokes. Just about everyone here is really smart and has interesting things to say. You don't have to spend ten years st... (read more)

Reply
5coffeespoons
I'm sorry you feel that way.I reread and the only bit I thought unfair is the "don't ask me for my phone number bit." I thought the submitter was reasonable with the other things she mentioned, but maybe that's my failure. What about this post caused you to worry?