All of spencerth's Comments + Replies

Right. I think this is one of the key issues. When things like 'natural', 'random' (both in where, when, and how often they happen) or are otherwise uncontrollable, humans are much keener to accept them. When agency comes into play, it changes the perspective on it completely: "how could we have changed culture/society/national policies/our surveillance system/educational system/messaging/nudges/pick your favorite human-controllable variable" to have prevented this, or prevent it in the future? It's the very idea that we could influence it and/or... (read more)

2see
Well, there are definitely forms that are irrational, but there's also the perfectly rational factor of having to account for feedback loops. We don't have to consider that shifting resources from lightning death prevention to terrorism prevention will increase the base rate of lightning strikes; we do have to consider that a shift in the other direction can increase (or perhaps decrease) the base rate of terrorist activity. It is thus inherently hard to compare the expected effect of a dollar of lightning strike prevention against a dollar of terrorism prevention, over and above the uncertainties involved in comparing the expected effect of (say) a dollar of lightning strike prevention against a dollar of large asteroid collision protection.

One of the reasons this post is of interest is that it likely represents the feelings of some/many would-be rationalists and the struggles they have. The reasons this person has for continuing their current mode of living cuts across many different lines. How many people choose to not come out of the closet, don't admit to being childfree, or refuse to be the sexual libertines they wish they could be because of fear of potentially being ostracized (and losing their social and economic support networks)? Thought experiment:

In a theoretical future society wh... (read more)

4CharlieSheen
Depends. The countries in question come with their own ideological quirks. Especially Scandinavia is in a way a very conformist culture. Conformist to Liberal sensibilities but basically filled with people who have internalized a very low regard for any deviation from those sensibilities (I have heard Sweden mockingly referred to as the Saudi Arabia of Feminism). The Czech Republic seems a good bet. Free of PC and free of conservative religious and other silliness. Perhaps the older generation carries some pro-Communist nostalgia, which makes the anti-free market bias a bit stronger but their historical legacy probably softens that too. Also the beautiful young ladies there where a riot last time l visited thumbs up
3NancyLebovitz
Societies like that would leave room for a wide range of eccentricity. There wouldn't just be more rationalists.

My question is:

Why is guilt often so bad a de-motivator? There are people who know they will feel guilty before the fact, do in fact feel guilt after the fact, and perhaps even continue to live with that guilt every day, but still continue the behavior. Guilt seems like it evolved exactly for the purpose of preventing people from acting in a way they consider immoral or unethical, so why does it so often seem so bad at its job?

9AdeleneDawner
I think the point is that it didn't evolve to stop us from doing things we consider immoral - it evolved to stop us from getting punished by other people for doing things that are generally considered immoral. This also explains why people feel relieved (and, as is implied, less guilty) when the thing they're feeling guilty about is found out - it seems quite likely to me that in the ancestral environment, if you were going to be punished for something, that punishment would happen pretty promptly after your indiscretion was discovered, and guilt would be pretty pointless after that point in time.

I don't believe I've conflated anything. It's posed as a question because I don't know the answer; I'm giving my view and some speculation based on a nagging feeling/set of thoughts. I'm looking for the views and experiences of others who may have observed/felt something similar.

1TheRev
I certainly agree that it can seem that rationalists are lonelier, I'm just posing an alternate reason why. Though, perhaps your post deserves a more thoughtful reply than I gave. Unfortunately, the question seems to be a difficult one to answer. First, we need to find a way to determine whether or not rationalists truly are more lonely. Loneliness seems like a tricky variable to quantify. Some ideas that spring to mind: You could measure the size of social circles using social network data or self-report surveys. Simply measure self-reported loneliness. Measure loneliness with some sort of psychological screening like you would measure introvertedness or conscientiousness. Record how often someone goes out with friends. Rationality might be easier to measure, except that I think self-report data would be unreliable, as it seems likely that like intelligence or competence at a given task, rationality would be underrated by those that have it and overrated by those who don't, but I'm sure the folks here at less wrong or elsewhere could write up a survey that measures it fairly well. Then only once these variables are quantified, would we be able to see if there even is a correlation to begin with. Though it could be explained a number of ways. Rational people are attracted mainly to other rational people, and there are fewer rationalists than non-rationalists. Human social ques are emotionally rather than logically based. Rational people are more likely to be candid about sensitive topics, scaring away non-rationalists. People with psychological traits such as placement on the Asperger's scale or high introversion could be conducive to rationality and not conducive to social aptitude. Or a combination of any of these. it's an interesting topic, but I think we are a long way from being able to draw any big rational conclusions about it yet.
spencerth230

Though I agree with you strongly, I think we should throw the easy objection to this out there: high-quality, thorough scholarship takes a lot of time. Even for people who are dedicated to self-improvement, knowledge and truth-seeking (which I speculate this community has many of), for some subjects, getting to the "state of the art"/minimum level of knowledge required to speak intelligently, avoid "solved problems", and not run into "already well refuted ideas" is a very expensive process. So much so that some might argue tha... (read more)

7greim
Hear, hear! Arguably, resources like Wikipedia, the LW sequences, and SEP (heck even Google and the internet in general) are steps in that general direction.
scav270

getting to the "state of the art"/minimum level of knowledge required to speak intelligently, avoid "solved problems", and not run into "already well refuted ideas" is a very expensive process.

So is spending time and effort on solved problems and already well refuted ideas.

The bigger issue to me is the value system that makes this phenomenon exist in the first place. It essentially requires people to care more about signaling than seeking truth. Of course this makes sense for many (perhaps most) people since signaling can get you all sorts of other things you want, whereas finding the truth could happen in a vacuum/near vacuum (you could find out some fundamental truth and then die immediately, forget about it, tell it to people and have no one believe you, etc.)

It bothers me that extremely narrow self-interest (as indicated... (read more)

Good post. One other thing that should be said has to do with the /why/. Why do we design many games like this? There are some obvious reasons: it's easier, it's fun, it plays on our natural reward mechanisms, etc. A perhaps less obvious one: it reflects the world as many /wish it could be/. Straightforward; full of definite, predefined goals; having well known, well understood challenges; having predictable rewards that are trivial to compare to others; having a very linear path for "progression" (via leveling up, attribute increases, etc.) A world with a WHOLE lot less variables.

7luminosity
If you're not aware of Jane McGonigal you might be interested in her works. Her basic position is that games are better than reality, mostly because they have a far superior feedback system. She tries to apply game design to the real world to stimulate people's problem solving.

Very good article. One thing I'd like to see covered are conditions that are "treatable" with good lifestyle choices, but whose burden is so onerous that no one would consider them acceptable. Let's say you have a genetic condition which causes you to gain much more weight (5x, 10x - the number is up to the reader) than a comparable non-affected person. So much that the only way you can prevent yourself from becoming obese is to strenuously exercise 8 hours a day. If a person chooses not to do this, are they really making a "bad" choice... (read more)

-2dhill
...also everything may be a problem and an opportunity. You could consider yourself lucky, if you wanted to become a body-builder. Some quirks can actually become an advantage. I would say a real solution (when available) is more robust than hiding from a problem (of wrong perception).
4[anonymous]
I think that's the best model for semi-voluntary problems -- it's usually not the case that no amount of effort would solve them, but that they would need much more effort than the average person. People with poor parents can become rich, but they have to work much harder than people with rich parents for the same result. If you're doing the same amount of work as an average person, I'd say you deserve as much credit as an average person.

If there's some cure for the genetic condition, naturally I'd support that. Otherwise, I think it would fall under the category of "the cost of the blame is higher than the benefits would be." It's not part of this person's, or my, or society's, or anyone's preferences that this person exercise eight hours a day to keep up ideal weight, so there's no benefit to blaming them until they do.

As for the second example, regarding "is it still right to hold someone so treated /morally/ responsible for doing poorly in their life", this post cou... (read more)

2soreff
Excellent point. This can even be made considerably stronger: The whole health care debate was about ~15% of our economy (I'm writing from the U.S.). For any given individual, working a 40 hour week, the equivalent cost would be to burden them with ~15% of their working hours with some lifestyle choice (whether 6 hours per week of exercise or some other comparably time consuming action). Lifestyle changes can be damned expensive in terms of opportunity costs.

If they raped you, starved you/fed you paint chips, beat you to the point of brain injury, tortured you? How about being born in a place where the pollution is so bad that you're likely to get sick/die from with a very high probability? Places that are completely ravaged with drought or famine? Places where genocide is fairly regular? Where your parents are so destitute that they are forced to feed you the absolute worst food (or even non-"food") so that your brain/body never develops properly?

Of course, for people/places where rape/forced childb... (read more)

1Larks
For most of the cases you describe, the antecedent isn't satisfied, so the local implication (old enough to take the wheel -> responsible) is trivially satisfied.
5Richard_Kennaway
All advice is relative to a certain context.
MrHen150

She was talking to students at Harvard.

5thomblake
The parent comment originally read, "pain chips", which was apparently more thought-provoking than intended.

I came up with quote for a closely related issue:

"Don't let the fact that idiots agree with you be the sole thing that makes you change your mind, else all you'll have gained is a different set of idiots who agree with you."

Naive people (particularly contrarians) put into a situation where they aren't sure which ideas are truly "in" or "out" or "popular" may become highly confused and find themselves switching sides frequently. After joining a "side", then being agreed with by people whose arguments were po... (read more)