All of Stephen_Cole's Comments + Replies

This is not evidence, this is opinion. Granted, good evidence on these points is hard to come by. But treating opinion like fact is detrimental to communication.

Seems my opinions differ from yours. We have different utility functions with respect to these issues. You get yours, I get mine. On any joint decision for a shared utility we each get weight 1/n.

I pose we should spend our time/resources not arguing about our utilities, but collecting high-quality evidence to improve the probability portions of our MEU.

0Good_Burning_Plastic
I didn't say anything about utilities.

Thanks, I see. But how does one decide whether someone believes something about the comment, or is just punishing generally? I guess we might require a comment if there is a down vote? Or the moderators could look at voting patterns overall, or in special cases where attention has been called. I am new to LW so I have little sense of context.

9Lumifer
Because one notices that one's karma went down by like 40 points in the matter of minutes and posts from long ago suddenly acquired -1s. There already was some discussion/drama about that a year ago or so which ended up with the account of Eugene_Nier being banned for that practice. It involved mods looking up actual patterns of voting. To give you a bit of context, there is belief that the same person is behind the accounts of Eugene_Nier (banned), Azathoth (banned), and now VoiceOfRa. There is also some political overlay because VoiceOfRa (and previous accounts) is a neoreactionary and an unapologetic conservative which is very visible in his posts. Most of the complaints about VoiceOfRa come from people who think he downvoted them (as the last mod look at the voting patterns showed, some of them are right and some of them are wrong about that) and these people are mostly left-wing. Normally this calls for a straightforward technical solution along the lines of "if you start downvoting many comments, the system will impose growing time limits on when you can downvote another comment" -- very similar to how many computer systems deal with bad logins. However LW has no one who has both time and authority to work on its code base and thus we're stuck debating stupid political solutions to a technical problem.

Oops. Thanks for the fix!

Source? Or just your n = 1 observation?

-1Good_Burning_Plastic
Well, where would you guess a larger fraction of people to be openly homosexual, in New England or in Appalachia? In which of the two would you guess more people go to college?

No offense taken. I am sorry I did not get to see Gill & Robins at JSM. Jamie also talks about some of these issues online back in 2013 at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjcoJ0gC_po

I think people should vote how they believe, up or down. But I feel very strongly that we should each have 1 vote.

4Lumifer
The accusation is not of sockpuppetry, the accusation is that VoiceOfRa downvotes comments regardless of their content as a "punishment" for the poster. It's still one vote, but some people feel it's... misused.

Rather than define it, here is a (purported, I don't recall this one from Beyond Good and Evil) quote:

When a woman has scholarly inclinations there is usually something wrong with her sexuality. – Friedrich Nietzsche

7Viliam
An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex. -- Aldous Huxley
-6VoiceOfRa

I will assume by likelihood you meant probability. I think you have removed by concern by conditioning on it. The theorem has probability 1, in your formal system. For me that is not probability 1, I don't give any formal system full control of my beliefs/probabilities.

Of course, I believe arithmetic with probability approaching 1. For now.

I think one of the clearest expositions on these issues is ET Jaynes. The first three chapters (which is some of the relevant part) can be found at http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/prob/book.pdf.

0Regex
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Have you read Nietzsche? I read Beyond Good and Evil. He seemed like a misogynist asshole, but perhaps just a product if his time.

-5VoiceOfRa
627chaos
His real attitudes weren't exactly modern, but some of the things he said are intended to be interpreted symbollically, interacting with the abstract idea of Woman rather than with all women as a group of human beings. In that sense, he might be interpreted as criticizing their culturally specific gender role more than their sex-imposed characteristics. He probably wasn't all that interested in distinguishing between those, because he views people who are controlled by their culture as contemptible anyway. I think that lack of interest in understanding or sympathizing with (apparent) weakness is a common flaw of his work. Fundamental attribution error, basically. Similarly, he only rarely praises those who try to cultivate strength in others, which is unfortunate if he really despises weakness so much. I think he might have cut himself off from empathy due to feeling as though it overwhelmed him, some of his writings on Schopenhauer hint at this. In my opinion, if someone views women's behavior within 19th century gender roles as admirable they're in a way more misogynistic than someone who views it as ugly and broken. Had he sympathy or understanding in addition to his contempt though, or if he'd been more willing to distinguish between a person's internal states and their external behavior, then the balance of his attitudes would have been far better calibrated. It's also worth keeping in mind that using caveats and qualifiers wasn't Nietzsche's rhetorical style and arguably would have ruined his impact. He sometimes deliberately exaggerates and is inflammatory; he is writing to people's hearts as much as their minds, since one of his main beliefs is that people have broken value systems. Overall, I think he's misogynist, but I don't think he's as extreme a misogynist as he is sometimes perceived. A product of his times, who only partially transcended them. If he saw the way women tend to behave today in Western countries, I like to think he'd be much happier wi

Great question. I believe Jack Good's answer was his "type 2 rationality", which implies a Bayes/non-Bayes synthesis, semiparametric statistics, and nondogmatism.

Exciting! If I were in your place I would look at the growing field of causal inference which lives at the interface of statistics, computer science, epidemiology and economics. The books by Hernan and Robins (causal inference) and Pearl (causality), as well as the journal edited by Judea Pearl and Maya Petersen (causal inference).

5[anonymous]
Thanks for the recommendations (esp. Hernan and Robins). I'll definitely take a look.

Beyond all doubt sounds fairly dogmatic, no? Godel proved in 1931 that Hilbert's program for a solid mathematical foundation (circa 1900) was impossible.

2Jayson_Virissimo
While I don't quite agree with your claim about what Gödel accomplished, 'beyond all doubt' is an overstatement. The history of mathematics provides many examples of apparent proofs accepted by the profession later being rejected for containing devastating errors. Even a single instance of this occurring would, strictly speaking, rule out a literal 'beyond all doubt' claim.
2[anonymous]
Well no, Goedel proved that nonstandard models of the natural numbers exist. Chaitin went on to prove that any formal axiomatic system, only containing a finite amount of axioms, will eventually face true theorems it cannot prove, for lack of information in its axioms. That doesn't mean proven mathematical theorems are actually wrong, and unfortunately, Goedel's Platonism has resulted in most of society thinking about mathematics and proof in the wrong way.
7ike
Not everything can be proven, but those that are are proven beyond (virtually all) doubt.

I get your point that we can have greater belief in logical and mathematical knowledge. But (as pointed out by JoshuaZ) I have seen too many errors in proofs given at scientific meetings (and in submitted publications) to blindly believe just about anything.

-1[anonymous]
That wasn't quite my point. As a simple matter of axioms, if you condition on the formal system, a proven theorem has likelihood 1.0. Since all theorems are ultimately hypothetical statements anyway, conditioned on the usefulness of the underlying formal system rather than a Platonic "truth", once a theorem is proved, it can be genuinely said to have probability 1.0.

Sounds like this is perhaps related to the counterfactual-consistency statement? In its simple form, that the counterfactual or potential outcome under policy "a" equals the factual observed outcome when you in fact undertake policy "a", or formally, Y^a = Y when A = a.

Pearl has a nice (easy) discussion in the journal Epidemiology (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20864888).

Is this what you are getting at, or am I missing the point?

1IlyaShpitser
No, not quite. Counterfactual consistency is what allows you to link observed and hypothetical data (so it is also extremely important). Counterfactual definiteness is even more basic than that. It basically sets the size of your ontology by allowing you to talk about Y(a) and Y(a') together, even if we only observe Y under one value of A. ---------------------------------------- edit: Stephen, I think I realized who you are, please accept my apologies if I seemed to be talking down to you, re: potential outcomes, that was not my intention. My prior is people do not know what potential outcomes are. ---------------------------------------- edit 2: Good talks by Richard Gill and Jamie Robins at JSM on this: http://www.amstat.org/meetings/jsm/2015/onlineprogram/ActivityDetails.cfm?SessionID=211222

Ilya, can you give me a definition of "counterfactual definiteness" please?

1IlyaShpitser
Physicists are not very precise about it, may I suggest looking into "potential outcomes" (the language some statisticians use to talk about counterfactuals): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubin_causal_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_definiteness Potential outcomes let you think about a model that contains a random variable for what happens to Fred if we give Fred aspirin, and a random variable for what happens to Fred if we give Fred placebo. Even though in reality we only gave Fred aspirin. This is "counterfactual definiteness" in statistics. This paper uses potential outcomes to talk about outcomes of physics experiments (so there is an exact isomorphism between counterfactuals in physics and potential outcomes): http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.4913.pdf

Has there been discussion of Jack Good's principle of nondogmatism? (see Good Thinking, page 30).

The principle, stated simply in my bastardized version, is to believe no thing with probability 1. It seems to underlie Good's type 2 rationality (to maximize expected utility, within reason).

This is (almost) in accord with Lindley's concept of Cromwell's rule (see Lindley's Understanding Uncertainty or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwell%27s_rule). And seems to be closely related to Jaynes' mind projection fallacy.

-1[anonymous]
Meeehhhh. Believe nothing empirical with probability 1.0. Believe formal and analytical proofs with probability 1.0.
5Tem42
There have been discussions on this topic, although perhaps not framed as nondogmatism. If you have not read 0 and 1 are not probabilities and infinite certainty, you might find them and related articles interesting.

"Irrationality is intellectual violence against which the pacifism of rationality may or may not be an adequate weapon."

  • Jack Good, Good Thinking, page 25.
1[anonymous]
What would be an adequate weapon, then? Pavlovian training to follow the rationality to the best of one's abilities?
5Username
Violence requires at least two people, you can be irrational even when you are alone.