There is nothing wrong with wanting to be something you are not. But you should also want to have accurate beliefs about yourself. And being a sort of person who prefers beer over charity doesn't make you a bad person. And I have no idea how to you can change your true preferences, even if you want to.
I think the problem isn't that your actions are inconsistent with your beliefs, it's that you have some false beliefs about yourself. You may believe that "death is bad", "charity is good", and even "I want to be a person who would give to charity instead of buying a beer". But it does not follow that you believe "giving to charity is more important to me than buying a beer".
This explanation is more desirable, because if actions don't follow from beliefs, then you have to explain what they follow from instead.
It seems you are no longer ruling out a science of other minds
No, by "mind" I just mean any sort of information processing machine. I would have said "brain", but you used a more general "entity", so I went with "mind". The question of what is and isn't a mind is not very interesting to me.
I've already told you what it would mean
Where exactly?
Is the first half of the conversation meaningful and the second half meaningless?
First of all, the meaningfulness of words depends on the observer. "Robot pain&q...
category error, like "sleeping idea"
Obviously I agree this is meaningless, but I disagree about the reasoning. A long time ago I asked you to prove that "bitter purple" (or something) was a category error, and your answer was very underwhelming.
I say that "sleeping idea" is meaningless, because I don't have a procedure for deciding if an idea is sleeping or not. However, we could easily agree on such procedures. For example we could say that only animals can sleep and for every idea, "is this idea sleeping" is ans...
That is a start, but we can't gather data from entities that cannot speak
If you have a mind that cannot communicate, figuring out what it feels is not your biggest problem. Saying anything about such a mind is a challenge. Although I'm confident much can be said, even if I can't explain the algorithm how exactly that would work.
On the other hand, if the mind is so primitive that it cannot form the thought "X feels a like Y", then does X actually feel like Y to it? And of course, the mind has to have feelings in the first place. Note, my previo...
We can't compare experiences qua experiences using a physicalist model, because we don't have a model that tells us which subset or aspect of neurological functioning corresponds to which experience.
We can derive that model by looking at brain states and asking the brains which states are similar to which.
Even if it is an irrational personal pecadillo of someone to not deliberately cause pain , they still need to know about robot pain.
They only need to know about robot pain if "robot pain" is a phrase that describes something. They could a...
But you could not have used it to make a point about links between meaning, detectabiity, and falsehood.
No, but I can use it to make a point about how low your bar for meaningfulness is. Does that not count for some reason? I asked you before to propose a meaningless statement of your own. Do none exist? Are none of them grammatically correct?
???
Now you imply that they possible could be detected, in which case I withdraw my original claim
Yes, the unicorns don't have to be undetectable be definition. They're just undetectable by all methods that I'm ...
I doubt that's a good thing. It hasn't been very productive so far.
Well, you used it,.
I can also use"ftoy ljhbxd drgfjh". Is that not meaningless either? Seriously, if you have no arguments, then don't respond.
What happens if a robot pain detector is invented tomorrow?
Let me answer that differently. You said invisible unicorns don't exist. What happens if an invisible unicorn detector is invented tomorrow? To make a detector for a thing, that thing has to have known properties. If they did invent a robot pain detector tomorrow, how would you check that it really detects robot pain? You're supposed to be able to check that somehow.
You keep saying it s a broken concept.
Yes. I consider that "talking about consciousness". What else is there to say about it?
That anything should feel like anything,
If "like" refers to similarity of some experiences, a physicalist model is fine for explaining that. If it refers to something else, then I'll need you to paraphrase.
Circular as in
"Everything is made of matter. matter is what everything is made of." ?
Yes, if I had actually said that. By the way, matter exists in you universe too.
...Yes: it's relevant beca
Sure, and if X really is the best approximation of Y that Bob can understand, then again Alice is not dishonest. Although I'm not sure what "approximation" means exactly.
But there is also a case where Alice tells Bob that "X is true", not because X is somehow close to Y, but because, supposedly, X and Y both imply some Z. This is again a very different case. I think this is just pure and simple lying. That is, the vast majority of lies ever told fall into this category (for example, Z could be "you shouldn't jail me", X could ...
Case 1: Alice tells Bob that "X is true", Bob then interprets this as "Y is true"
Case 2: Alice tells Bob that "X is true", because Bob would be too stupid to understand it if she said "Y is true". Now Bob believes that "X is true".
These two cases are very different. You spend the first half of your post in case 1, and then suddenly jump to case 2 for the other half.
<...> then perhaps telling a lie in a way that you know will communicate a true concept is not a lie.
This is fair.
There are certain truths which literally cannot be spoken to some people.
But this is a completely different case. Lies told to stupid people are still lies, the stupid people don't understand the truth behind them, and you have communicated nothing. You could argue that those lies are somehow justified, but there is no parallel between lying to stupid people and things like "You're the best".
Well, I can imagine a post on SSC with 5 statements about the next week, where other users would reply with probabilities of each becoming true, and arguments for that. Then, after the week, you could count the scores and name the winners in the OP. It would probably get a positive reaction. Why not give it a try?
I'm not sure what the 5 statements should be though. I think it must be "next week" not "next year", because you can't enjoy a game if you've forgotten you're playing it. Also, for it to be a game, it has to be repeatable, but ...
There are way too many "shoulds" in this post. If anyone can have fun predicting important events at all, then it would probably be people in this forum. Can we make something like this happen? Would we actually want to participate? I'm not sure that I do.
That is not a fact, and you have done nothing to argue it, saying instead that you don;t want to talk about morality
Yes, I said it's not a fact, and I don't want to talk about morality because it's a huge tangent. Do you feel that morality is relevant to our general discussion?
and also don;'t want to talk about consciousness.
What?
A theory should be as simple as possible while still explaining the facts. There are prima facie facts facts about conscious sensations,that are not addressed by talk of brain states and preferences.
What facts am I fail...
It's obvious - we need buzzfeed to create a "which celebrities will get divorced this year" quiz (with prizes?). There is no way people will be interested in predicting next year's GDP.
There is a common mistake in modeling humans, to think that they are simple. Assuming that "human chose a goal X" implies "human will take actions that optimally reach X" would be silly. Likewise assuming that humans can accurately observe their own internal state is silly. Humans have a series of flaws and limitations that obscure the simple abstractions of goal and belief. However, saying that goals and beliefs do not exist is a bit much. They are still useful in many cases and for many people.
By the way, it sounds a little like you're referring to so some particular set of beliefs. I think naming them explicitly would add clarity.
What I have asserted makes sense with my definiions. If you are interpreting in terms of your own definitions....don't.
I'm trying to understand your definitions and how they're different from mine.
I think it is false by occam;'s razor, which automaticaly means it is meaningful, beause it it were meanignless I would not know how to apply occam's razor or anything else to it.
I see that for you "meaningless" is a very narrow concept. But does that agree with your stated definition? In what way is "there is an invisible/undetectable unico...
"Red giant" does not and cannot have precise boundaries
Again, you make a claim and then offer no arguments to support it. "Red giant" is a term defined quite recently by a fairly small group of people. It means what those people wanted it to mean, and its boundaries are as precise as those people wanted them to be.
we will not be continuing this discussion of language. Not until you show that it has something to do with consciousness. It doesn't.
You started the language discussion, but I have to explain why we're continuing it? I ...
you calling into question whether the reason I say I am conscious, is because I am actually conscious, does not make it actually questionable. It is not.
What the hell does "not questionable" mean?
Is that a fact or an opinion?
Well, you quoted two statements, so the question has multiple interpretations. Obviously, anything can be of ethical concert, if you really want it to be. Also the opinion/fact separation is somewhat silly. Having said that:
"pain is of ethical concern because you don't like it" is a trivial fact in the sense that, if you loved pain, hurting you would likely not be morally wrong.
"You don't have to involve consciousness here" - has two meanings:
one is "the concept of preference is simpler than the co...
- Useless for communication.
A bit too vague. Can I clarify that as "Useless for communication, because it transfers no information"? Even though that's a bit too strict.
- Meaningless statements cannot have truth values assigned to them.
What is stopping me from assigning them truth values? I'm sure you meant, "meaningless statements cannot be proven or disproven". But "proof" is a problematic concept. You may prefer "for meaningless statements there are no arguments in favor or against them", but for statements...
It only explains the "-less" suffix. It's fine as a dictionary definition, but that's obviously not what I asked for. I need you to explain "meaning" as well.
Google could easily add a module to Google Translate that would convert a statement into its opposite.
No, google could maybe add "not" before every "conscious", in a grammatically correct way, but it is very far from figuring out what other beliefs need to be altered to make these claims consistent. When it can do that, it will be conscious in my book.
You identify yourself with the mute mind, and the process converts that into you saying that you identify with the converted mind.
What is "you" in this sentence? The mute ...
You are correct that "I forgot", in the sense that I don't know exactly what you are referring to
Well, that explains a lot. It's not exactly ancient history, and everything is properly quoted, so you really should know what I'm talking about. Yes, it's about the identical table-chairs question from IKEA discussion, the one that I linked to just a few posts above.
Secondly, what I mean is that there are no determinate boundaries to the meaning of the word.
Why are there no determinate boundaries though? I'm saying that boundaries are unclear...
By acting like you actually want to understand what is being said
I think you already forgot how this particular part of the thread started. First I said that we had established that "X is false", then you disagreed, then I pointed out that I had asked "is X true?" and you had no direct answer. Here I'm only asking you for a black and white answer on this very specific question. I understood your original reply, but I honestly have not idea how it was supposed to answer my specific question. When people refuse to give direct answers t...
The reason why I wrote the previous sentence is because I am conscious.
That's just paraphrasing your previous claim.
how do you know you don't just agree with me about this you whole discussion, and you are mechanically writing statements you don't agree with?
I have no problems here. First, everything is mechanical. Second, a process that would translate one belief into it's opposite, in a consistent way, would be complex enough to be considered a mind of its own. I then identify "myself" with this mind, rather than the one that's mute.
...N
I means "does not have a meaning."
I'm sure you can see how unhelpful this is.
Robot pain is of ethical concern because pain hurts.
No, pain is of ethical concern because you don't like it. You don't have to involve consciousness here. You involve it, because you want to.
God and homeopathy are meaningful, which is why people are able to mount arguments against them,
Homeopathy is meaningful. God is meaningful only some of the time. But I didn't mean to imply that they are analogues. They're just other bad ideas that get way too much attention.
The ordinary definition for pain clearly does exist, if that is what you mean.
What ...
Meaningfulness, existence, etc.
It is evident that this is a major source of our disagreement. Can you define "meaningless" for me, as you understand it? In particular, how it applies to grammatically correct statements.
It's perfectly good as a standalone stament
So you agree that invisible unicorns indeed do not exist? How do you know? Obviously, the unicorns I'm talking about are not just undetectable by light, they're also undetectable by all other methods.
I perform many human behaviors because I am conscious.
Another bold claim. Why do you think that there is a causal relationship between having consciousness and behavior? Are you sure that consciousness isn't just a passive observer? Also, why do you think that there is no causal relationship between having consciousness and five fingers?
I don't know where you think that was established.
Well, I asked you almost that exact question, you quoted it, and replied with something other than "yes". How was I supposed to interpret that?
So for example if you find some random rocks somewhat in the shape of a chair, they will not be a chair
So, if I find one chair-shaped rock, it's not a chair, but if I then take a second rock, sculpt it into the shape of the first rock and sit on it, the second rock is a chair? Would simply sitting on the first rock convert it into a chair?
I can under...
but you have brought in a bunch of different issues without explaining how they interrelate
Which issues exactly?
No, still not from that.
Why not? Is this still about how you're uncomfortable saying that invisible unicorns don't exist? Does "'robot pain' is meaningless" follow from the same better?
If someone made something for sitting, you have more reason to call it a chair. If someone made something -not- for sitting, you have less reason to call it a chair.
Yes, correlated variables are evidence, and evidence influences certainty about the classification, but that's not the same as influencing the classification.
And those things are true even given the same form
So if I made two identical objects, with the intention to use one as a chair and another as a coffee table, then one would be a chair and another would be a coffee table? I thought we already established that they wouldn't.
But surely, you believe that human-like behavior is stronger evidence than a hand with five fingers. Why is that?
Behavior sufficiently similar to human behavior would be a probable, although not conclusive, reason to think that it is conscious. There could not be a conclusive reason.
Why is this a probable reason? You have one data point - yourself. Sure, you have human-like behavior, but you also have many other properties, like five fingers on each hand. Why does behavior seem like a more significant indicator of consciousness than having hands with five fingers? How did you come to that conclusion?
Ok, do you have any arguments to support that it is causal?
Are you saying that we must have dualism, and that consciousness is something that certainly cannot be reduced to "parts moved by other parts"? It's not just that some arrangements of matter are conscious and others are not?
It also means not any other thing similar to consciousness, even if not exactly consciousness.
I have not idea what that means (a few typos maybe?). Obviously, there are things that are unconscious but are not machines, so the words aren't identical. But if there is some difference between "mere machine" and "unconscious machine", you have to point it out for me.
My reason is that we have no reason to think that a roomba is conscious.
Hypothetically, what could a reason to think that a robot is conscious look like?
...There is no extr
As I said, this is how people use the words.
What words? The word "causal"? I'm asking for arguments why you think that the relationship between intention and classification is causal. I expect you to understand the difference between causation and correlation. Why is this so difficult for you?
It is causal, but not infallible.
Ok, do you have any arguments to support that claim?
That's your problem. Everyone else will still call it "the sun,"
That may depend on the specific circumstances of the discovery. Also, different people can use the same words in different ways.
You can make arguments for and against robot pain as well.
Arguments like what?
The word "mere" in that statement means "and not something else of the kind we are currently considering." When I made the statement, I meant that the roomba is not conscious
Oh, so "mere machine" just a pure synonym of "not conscious"? Then I guess you were right about what my problem is. Taboo or not, your only argument why roomba is not conscious, is to proclaim that it is not conscious. I don't know how to explain to you that this is bad.
The roomba just has each part of it moved by other parts
Are you implyi...
it is simply the logical consequence of what you said, which is that you will consider all statements meaningless unless you can argue otherwise.
I don't really know why you derive from this that all statements are meaningless. Maybe we disagree about what "meaningless" means? Wikipedia nicely explains that "A meaningless statement posits nothing of substance with which one could agree or disagree". It's easy for me to see that "undetectable purple unicorns exist" is a meaningless statement, and yet I have no problems with &...
That's cute.
Seriously though, you have a bad habit of taking my rejection of one extreme (that all grammatically correct statements should be assumed meaningful) and interpreting that as the opposite extreme.
but you would probably object that this is just saying it is not conscious
I would also object by saying that a human is also a "mere machine".
the the roomba's actions do not constitute a coherent whole
I have no idea what "coherent whole" means. Is roomba incoherent is some way?
you know quite well what I am talking about here
At times I honestly don't.
By recognizing that it is similar to the other feelings that I have called pain.
Ok, but that just pushes the problem one step back. There are various feelings similar to stubb...
This is an obvious fact about how these words are used and does not need additional support.
Wow, you have no idea how many bold claims you make. To clarify once again, when I ask if intention matters, I'm asking whether the relationship between intention and classification is causal, or just a correlation. You are supposed to know the difference between those two things, and you're supposed to know, in theory, how to figure out which one is relevant in a specific case. This whole "does not need additional support" thing inspires no confidence....
That's not the problem.
Wow, so you agree with me here? Is it not a problem to you at all, or just not "the" problem?
Yes. "Meaningless" , "immeasurable", "unnecessary" and "non existent" all mean different things.
Invisible unicorns are immeasurable. They do not exist. The assumption that they do exist is unnecessary. The statement "invisible unicorns are purple" is meaningless. The words aren't all exactly the same, but that doesn't mean they aren't all appropriate.
...Why did it take you so l
You keep saying various words are meaningless.
It's not that words are meaningless, it's that you sometimes apply them in stupid ways. "Bitter" is a fine word, until you start discussing the "bitterness of purple".
Consciousness is in the dictiionary, chariness isn't.
Are dictionary writers the ultimate arbiters of what is real? "Unicorn" is also in the dictionary, by the way.
Consciousness is a concept used by science, chairness isn't.
Physicalist, medical definition of consciousness is used by science. You accuse me of...
You're right. Instead it means that he doesn't have the willpower required to become a doctor. Presumably, this is something he didn't know before he started school.