All of TGGP4's Comments + Replies

I prefer OB and don't read LW as much, but that's partly because there are other things competing for my time and you'd have to sift through a lot of mediocre stuff at LW to find the same sort of quality. I expressed my disagreement with Eliezer in his post on gardens, which I'd rather not reiterate here as others can read it there. Personally, I don't do any voting at all.

"Pure capitalism is so cruel at times that it cycles rebellion" "Deprivation theory is wrong, social construction is right. “Objective” conditions don’t predict the rise of movements, but problem construction." Fabio Rojas - Most Important Social Movement Findings

North Korea does not permit people to engage in "problem construction", so the objective conditions of deprivation do not pose as much risk of rebellion.

Yvain, people seem to have a hedonic set point. If you currently prefer life to non-life, I highly doubt you would not if you lived in Saudi Arabia or Burma.

Eliezer, what aspects of you do you think would have been different if you had consumed only non-fiction as a child?

I somewhat recently decided to only read non-fictional books. One of the reasons I gave for that in making that decision was the desire to seek the truth more fully and a distrust of my ability to discount the biases of fiction, but now I think the more operative reason was that there was a large number of non-fictional books I wanted to have read (distinct from wanting to read) and was dissatisfied with my throughput while fiction was able to compete.

Yvain, the most murderous dictator the world had ever seen and the biggest imperialist power of the day were on the side of the Allies and if our country had gone to war with his (and been as succesful) I am sure you would be talking about how lopsided the scales were in the other direction, having had it drummed into you through school and popular culture.

I don't think the teacher being punched by a parent is a good analogy. Here are two possible other scenarios that differ from the original in a small way:

  1. The teacher sees one student punch another student.
  2. Two parents are fighting (this does happen). The teacher does not know who started it.

Regarding judges, we consider it necessary for them to pass judgment but they can gain greater respect sometimes by practicing "judicial minimalism", or saying as little as possible while resolving the specific dispute.

"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who in time of crisis remain neutral." -- Dante Alighieri, famous hell expert Wrong.

The "good" part does all the work. 90% of everything is crap, and that's if you're an optimist.

This seemed terribly appropriate.

A reader at 2Blowhards: Depiction of trickster gods in West Africa seems a bit positive, at worst morally neutral. In Northern Europe, Loki was a clear-cut villain. Could that contrast come from selection-induced personality differences?

Greg Cochran: And yet Bugs Bunny is our hero. I think this line of analysis is about as sound and solid as Citibank.

In Northern Europe, Loki was a clear-cut villain.

He was? In the Eddic literature, he's certainly not: the city of the gods could not have been built; without him, Thor's hammer could not have been reclaimed from the frost giants; and he must have done Odin a good turn indeed for him to consent to becoming a blood-brother and thereby numbering Loki among the Aesir. Yes, he did many bad things, but let's not forget the good - that's why Norse scholars have such difficulty with Loki.

I had been thinking of Hanson's above-mentioned metacynicism recently when he discussed the signalling that he engaged in. I don't actually have as much trust for people that claim to be Guardians of the Truth as for those who admit to having other motives in which truth may be incidental. I'm more willing to listen to Hopefully Anonymous even as he proclaims that he engages in mythmaking for his own advantage, and one of the things I liked about Der Ego was Stirner proclaiming in the opening that he owes no more duty to Truth than Truth does to him, and e... (read more)

I should write about this later. I highly encourage you to. I find it an interesting topic without enough attention (with economic-type broad analysis rather than direct participation not part of public knowledge).

Why should we believe there are "moral truths"? And why are the rules so different with regard to physics? What other topics have a standard more like morality than physics?

I agree with Yvain. The mirror neuron argument was just shoddy. After acknowledging that the science didn't necessarily support your point about them, you then said that doesn't matter. If the truth of an argument is irrelevant, why bring it up at all? Doesn't such an argument falling back on "deeper truth" have the same weaknesses as the religious/mystical in their ... (read more)

Wondering, I like rationality posts.

I'm happy to hear that Eliezer will go back to posting on rationality.

Maybe it's the types I of haunts I've been frequenting lately, but the elimination of all conscious life in the universe doesn't strike me as too terrible at the moment (provided it doesn't shorten my own lifespan).

Dagon, as I explained in Interpersonal Entanglement, it's okay except when it isn't.

My comment got flagged as spam. I'm removing the links now but would appreciate it if this comment was removed when the original gets approved.

I've never understood the fascination with cats, which is perhaps because I'm allergic to them. For misanthropic reasons, I suspect I'd prefer replacing you all with some sort of non-sentient beings (though perhaps not when I'm at my most misanthropic).

He said, "Well, then I'd just modify my brain not to get bored -" And I said: "AAAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE" Why? You've just given a frightened response ... (read more)

4Ghatanathoah
I think I can resolves, or at least explain, most of your disagreements with Eliezer. He gave a reasoned argument here and here. I guess he just assumed that readers were unlikely to have read this without reading those other essays first. I think he meant a common secondary meaning of sterile: barren and fruitless. Sterile simplicity is bad because it generates less things of value. To put it in more analytical terms, if you separate you just get happiness. If you overcome your differences you get happiness, and the satisfaction of having solved a difficult problem. Now, obviously you can make a reductio ad absurdum out of this and argue that by my logic, no one should separate ever. But that's obviously not what I mean. Maybe you should separate when you have an impossible problem, or a ridiculously hard problem that takes ludicrous effort to resolve. But for more moderate problems trying to solve them seems like a good idea. Considering that 60-50% of US marriages do not end in divorce, gender relations seems like a more moderate problem. Generally secession seems overrated as a problem-solving device. It strongly reminds me of the socialist desire to burn down society and start anew, except that secessionists at least have the decency to isolate the part of society they live in before they start the burning. When your problems are building up it's tempting to just throw everything out and start anew, while not noticing the massive new problems doing that causes. To avoid breaking the rules talking about current politics, I'll use the Roman Empire as an example. Historians generally agree that after it broke up the standard of living went down for the people living in its former territories. Whatever benefits secession generated were far outweighed by the new problems caused by increased difficulty of trade, migration, and mutual defense. I think Eliezer says what the difference is most explicitly here: To put it succinctly, solving the problem would allow
3Strange7
I dispute your claim to incompetence on the grounds that you have composed a comment coherent enough to be upvoted.

I haven't played computer games in a while, but I suspect the game designers know what they're doing better than Eliezer. When he creates a game that people want to play, I'll reconsider.

I would (or should I say "do") want to know if life is worth living, so I can cut my losses in advance.

I don't like surprises. That's part of why I like chain restaurants. That's an area where I am in sync with most people, as evidenced by their success and proliferation.

Zubon, from what I've read of Austrians they laugh at the claim (I think Gunnar Myrdal made it) that you can solve the knowledge/calculation problem with such a computer as a misunderstanding of the problem.

Yvain, you are groping toward one of the oldest forms of democracy.

Let's say I picked the happiest moment in my life (I honestly don't know what that is, but we can ignore that for now). After the Singularity when we can do things currently considered impossible, could I for all practical purposes rewind time and experience that moment again as if it had never happened to shift my hedonic set point?

6taryneast
I can remember how happy I was at my fourth birthday when my mum got me a pink balloon. It was very pretty. :)

Is that... what we want?

To just wipe away the last tear, and be done? For the last time, yes! Wake up from the Dragon-Tyrant's spell!

You could cut out just the intolerable parts of pain? It is all tolerable. Or intolerable. You'd better define your terms.

Keep the sort of pain that tells you not to stick your finger in the fire Just regenerate the finger.

grinds down and destroys a mind Does pain actually do that? Have we done experiments showing that's the case?

Or configure minds to be harder to damage One of Judith Harris' points is that minds are designed... (read more)

Asking what happens often, and binding happy emotions to that, so as to increase happiness - or asking what seems easy, and binding happy emotions to that - making isolated video games artificially more emotionally involving, for example -

At that point, it seems to me, you've pretty much given up on eudaimonia and moved to maximizing happiness; you might as well replace brains with pleasure centers, and civilizations with hedonium plasma. Well, why not? What makes changing the external stimulus more worthwhile than the subjective experience of it? It can't be that you hold the emotions evolution gave us as sacred or you wouldn't want to eliminate racial prejudice.

However, I would hope you realize the danger of assuming all gendered traits are "hard wired" into the brain; amongst other problems, that can support the idea that the much greater incidence of men committing acts of violence is "natural male aggression" that we can't ever eliminate. Leaving aside the question of whether or not that belief is accurate, if it hypothetically was would you still discourage someone from voicing it for reasons other than truth?

The society of Brave New World actually seemed like quite an improvement to me.

Tabarrok casts some doubt on the negative externality of wealthy peers: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/08/home-envy.html

I would say the revealed preference of migration supports him.

2pnrjulius
This is also incredibly heartening, because it means that all we need to do to get rid of poverty it point out to rich people how much happiness they are losing by living in a world full of poor people. Thus they'll have an incentive to spend the resources necessary to make poverty go away.

I recall in one of the Discworld novels the smallest unit of time is defined as the period in which the universe is destroyed and then recreated. If that were continually happening (perhaps even in a massively parallel manner)? What difference does that make? Building on some of Eliezer's earlier writing on zombies and quantum clones, I say none at all. Just as the simulated person in a human's dream is irrelevant once forgotten. It's possible that I myself am a simulation and in that case I don't want my torture to be simulated (at least in this instance,... (read more)

I second nominull. I don't recall Eliezer saying much about the moral-status of (non-human) animals, though it could be that I've just forgotten.

Democracy is a dumb idea. I vote for aristocracy/apartheid. Considering the disaster of the former Rhodesia, currently Zimbabwe, and the growing similarities in South Africa, the actual historical apartheid is starting to look pretty good. So I agree with Tim M, except I'm not a secular humanist.

Elkins, the authors make a similar point in the book. I think you might like it.

frelkins, have you read "Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence"? I have a big review with perhaps too much summary here. I'm certainly not an authority, so I encourage you to read it yourself.

I'm not sure if my lack of similar experiences when programming is due to my low programming talent or is linked to my poor sense of taste and smell. Though I suppose there could be a common cause for all of them.

General Kurt's link goes to Hanlon.

What's more internal than wireheading?

komponisto, we can leave aside the question of whether moral progress is possible or actual and focus on why we should expect it to be associated with technological progress. We can easily see that in the middle ages people were trying to create tougher armor and more powerful weaponry. Ethically, they seem to strive to be more obedient Christians. That includes setting as a goal things that many of us today consider IMMORAL. Rather than hoping for progress along that axis, many instead thought that mankind was Fallen from an earlier golden age and if anyt... (read more)

Were the people burning cats really trying to become non-cat-burners? Wasn't slavery viewed as divinely ordained for some time?

Regarding the Germans: winners write the history books. That is why the Soviet Union is not the anathema that Nazi Germany is to us today. If the Germans had won we would not consider them quite so evil. Technological advancement aids in winning wars.

komponisto, as a non-cognitivist I don't find the notion of moral "progress" to be meaningful, and I'd like to hear your argument for why we should expect some sort of empirical correlation between it and, say, technological advancement (which gives the overwhelming power that in turn makes genocide possible).

I'm an atheist who likes singing Song of Hope in church. I'd like to be a wirehead (or enter Nozick's experience machine). I don't know of any reason to delay becoming a superintelligence unless being a wirehead is the alternative.

The Indians were in large part killed by disease introduced by English fishermen. That's why Plymouth was relatively depopulated when the Pilgrims arrived and the Mound-Building Civilization collapsed without ever coming into contact with Europeans.

There is nothing oxymoronic about calling democracy "the tyranny of the majority". And George Washington himself was decisive in both the violent war of secession called a "revolution" that created a new Confederate government and the unlawful replacement of the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution, after which he personally crushed the Whiskey Rebellion of farmers resisting the national debt payments saddled upon them by this new government. Even MLK has been characterized as implicitly threatening more riots if his demands ... (read more)

The Austrians say that economics can only tell us qualitative rather than quantitative things. That's part of why many people don't take them seriously.

Let us know how it turns out. I haven't admitted it to anyone in meatspace yet. Fortunately I'm not married and my family isn't extremely religious.

"And you wonder why you don't have any political influence." I think the more obvious reason is small numbers.

Since there is no chance of an atheist being elected to office There have been plenty in other countries. In our own there's Pete Stark.

gaining one's happiness through the happiness of others You even find that idea in Stirner. Though it doesn't exclude the possibility of happiness through the misfortune of others as well.

Googling Parfit and hitchhiker returns some fans of both Derek and Guide to the Galaxy, and a few academic papers behind a paywall. Is there a summary of his example online somewhere?

Eliezer, I think you rather uncritically accept the standard narratives on the American war of independence and WW2 (among other things). There are plenty of cliche applause-lights (or the reverse) being thrown about.

I'll be the first to say I've never been "rebuilt", but I enjoyed GEB. I have next to nothing to protect and don't even fear death so much as dying.

the threat of insanity, which we know to be sort of an occupational hazard among AI researchers What? That sounds like sci-fi/horror writing, I've never heard of it happening in real life.

There was, once upon a time, an editorial in the Wall Street Journal calling Ford a "traitor to his class" because he offered more than the prevailing wages of the time. Sounds made up to me. A lot of stupid people think he did it so his workers could afford his cars. That's asinine. The marginal amount of money they'd send back to him directly would be negligible. The real reason was that he had a high turnover rate and it was costing him too much to keep training new employees. His retained more people after he raised wages.

1David_Gerard
It is a bit of a "citation needed".

Not all who wear robes are either Jedi or fakes What do you mean by "wear robes"? Could we move away from references to fictional stories?

Are you trying to argue against the use of metaphor for argument? The fact that Star Wars is a fiction doesn't make analogies made with its concepts wrong.

To clarify the phrase that you take issue with, "robes" from what I can gather signifies memetic authority, like scientists or priests or marketers who have dominion over a region of thought patterns - as the Jedi wield the Force.

Was Washington seriously offered the crown? Also, he's not as memorable a fiery revolutionary as Patrick Henry or Samuel Adams. Maybe one of them would have accepted it (I know, fundamental attribution error, yeah yeah yeah).

? I guess sci-fi isn't really my bag. I was never that into the Jeffreysai sequence but I think this was the least worth reading. And I guess I'm now guilty of writing an insubstantial derisive comment in response to (subjectively speaking) insubstantial post, which I just complained about at my own blog.

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