All of tmgerbich's Comments + Replies

Updating one's unconsciously regulated social behavior is impossible in the general case, and in most of the desirable >concrete cases too.

I don't see why that should necessarily be the case. It would simply require specifying the desired behavior and bringing it into the realm of the conscious until the new behavior is learned.

For example, if I were able to realize that a major barrier to my social communication is my lack of eye contact, I could make a deliberate effort to always make eye contact when having conversations. Ideally this behavior would eventually become internalized, but even if it didn't there's no actual reason why I couldn't keep it up for the rest of my life.

What motivation do people with social skills and those norms have to help those with less social skills? >Because unless there's something in it for them they're not doing it. Many of the kind of people who have >social skills find hanging out with the kind of people who don't actively unpleasant.

I would say that if the people with the high social skills have the option of removing the people with low social skills from the group then there is little/no incentive to help them beyond perhaps altruism.

But in many situations these mixed groups are fo... (read more)

There is a deep, bad problem with "if you can't read cues, go fuck yourself".

I'm not fine with there being nothing you can do given unclear cues. The cost of two people who wanted to hug not >hugging is negligible; the cost of someone being unable of social interaction until someone comes to clue them in >is not.

I don't think that's what I was intending to get at. If you can't read the cues about the appropriateness of a particular course of action then it is advisable to wait until you can ask someone more informed for information about... (read more)

tmgerbich-10

It would be really good to have a definition that had some shreds of objectivity to it.

The problem with this is that there is no objectivity. It's not just about the behavior, or the "perpetrator", or the "victim". It's the intersection of all of them and it's basically dependent on how the "victim" interprets certain aspects of the "perpetrator's" behavior- which is hugely biased by the personal characteristics of the "perpetrator". A hot guy walking up to a girl in a bar is flattering. An ugly guy doin... (read more)

tmgerbich180

Ask first. Always. For everything. Really.

I'm going to disagree with this. Honestly, straight up asking can be even more creepy in a lot of situations. For example if you ask, "Can I give you a hug?", you've double creeped me out.

First, you violated my boundaries because we're not hugging friends yet if ever. Second, you violated my social norms by not reading our friendship hug level from the vibe of our conversation and my body language. You're right that I may not actually tell you "no" because it is more difficult to opt-out, but... (read more)

3ChristianKl
When it comes to hugging you can to ask nonverbally. You look at the person and open your arms in prepartion of the hug. If the reciprote the gesture, you hug them. Otherwise you don't.
4fubarobfusco
It seems to me that if we update to be less creeped out by people asking for permission that we don't end up granting, we will make it safer for people to ask for permission. This means that ① some people who might otherwise not hug, but whom we would like hugs from, might be more likely to ask and thence to hug; and ② some people who might hug without asking will instead ask and take no for an answer. So, encouraging asking will get us ① more wanted hugs, and ② fewer unwanted hugs.

At Bicon in the UK, the code of conduct requires that people ask before touching. People hug a lot there, but they nearly always ask (unless they know each other well). It doesn't seem at all creepy because it's a community norm.

I think it's generally an excellent system. Once you've asked a lot of people an occasional no* doesn't hurt. And generally, people haven't seemed offended when I've said no to them.

*It's important to remember that no doesn't necessarily mean "go away you creep." Some people don't enjoy hugs.

MixedNuts450

There is a deep, bad problem with "if you can't read cues, go fuck yourself". I'm fine with generic norms of what is and isn't okay to ask: don't ask to hug someone on your first conversation, don't ask for anything romantic/sexual outside of certain specific contexts, only ask for things a little more intimate than what's already approved. You can learn those.

I'm not fine with there being nothing you can do given unclear cues. The cost of two people who wanted to hug not hugging is negligible; the cost of someone being unable of social interaction until someone comes to clue them in is not.

5[anonymous]
I do agree with everything you say here. I say in another reply here that I'm a fan of reframing for active consent and opt-in. I don't ask "can I give you a hug" for precisely the reasons you say. If it's not clear to me if we're on hugging terms or not, then I assume we're not. Cost to me if wrong about that = low. If I have high confidence that we're on hugging terms, but I don't know if you feel like it right now, and I have high confidence that we're on terms where asking this is ok, I'll ask "would you like me to hug you?" That's an implied "at this particular time", and not used for escalating from non-hugging to hugging. If I have doubt on any of these points, I don't ask. Cost to me if I'm wrong about that = low. Perhaps it asks a lot in terms of social/people/communication skills to model if processing the question will be costly, or if the cost to them is high for me asking when perhaps I shouldn't have. It doesn't particularly seem so, to me. TL;DR : costs to you in me asking when I shouldn't are higher than the costs to me of not asking when it would've been ok. I'm ok with that asymmetry - privilege is profoundly asymmetric.

I'm a bit late on this, obviously, but I've had a question that I've always felt was a bit too nonsensical (and no doubt addressed somewhere in the sequences that I haven't found) to bring up but it kinda bugs me.

Do we have any ideas/guesses/starting points about whether or not "self-awareness" is some kind of weird quirk of our biology and evolution or if would be be an inevitable consequence of any general AI?

I realize that's not a super clear definition- I guess I'm talking about that feeling of "existing is going on here" and you c... (read more)

5Mitchell_Porter
The question makes sense, but the answers probably won't. Questions like this are usually approached in an upside-down way. People assume, as you are doing, that reality is "just neurons" or "just atoms" or "just information", then they imagine that what they are experiencing is somehow "just that", and then they try to live with that belief. They will even construct odd ways of speaking, in which elements of the supposed "objective reality" are substituted for subjective or mentalistic terms, in order to affirm the belief. You're noticing that "self-awareness" or "the feeling that something is happening" or "the feeling that I exist" doesn't feel like it's the same thing as "neurons"; though perhaps you will tell yourself - as Wittgenstein may have done - that you don't actually know what being a pack of neurons should feel like, so how do you know that it wouldn't feel exactly like this? But if you pay attention to the subjective component of your thought, even when you're thinking objectively or scientifically, you'll notice that the reduction actually goes in the other direction. You don't have any direct evidence of the "objective existence" of neurons or atoms or "information". The part of reality that you do know about is always some "experience" that is "happening", which may include thoughts about an objective world, that match up in some way with elements of the experience. In other words, you don't know that there are neurons or atoms, but you can know that you are having thoughts about these hypothetical objects. If you're really good at observing and analyzing your thoughts, you may even be able to say a lot about the conscious mental activity which goes into making the thought and applying it to experience. The fundamental problem is that the physical concept of reality is obtained by taking these conscious states and amputating the subjective part, leaving only the "object" end. Clearly there is a sense in which the conscious subject is itself an

So, I tried each of these tests before I saw the answers, and I got them all correct- but I think the only reason that I got them correct is because I saw the statements together. With the exception of the dice-rolling, If you had asked me to rate the probabilities of different events occurring with sufficient time in between for the events to become decoupled in my mind, I suspect the absolute probabilities I would given would be in a different order from how I ordered them when I had access to all of them at once. Having the coupled events listed indepen... (read more)

tmgerbich370

Hello Less Wrong!

I was on facebook and I saw a wall post about the fanfiction Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. I haven't read fanfiction much since I was a kid, but the title was intriguing, so I clicked on it and started reading. The ideas were interesting enough that I went to the author's page and it brought me here.

Anyways, I'm a 22 year old female person. I'm graduating from college in 2 weeks with a chemistry major and I have no real plans, so it makes posting about my life situation a little awkward right now. I'll probably be heading ba... (read more)

4NancyLebovitz
Definitely an interesting intro, and it's good to see someone care so much about whether they understand the world. Approximate quote from Being Wrong: Adventures in the Margin of Error: "How does being wrong feel? Exactly like being right."
2JStewart
That was an awesome introduction post. I like the way you think.
9Alicorn
Welcome! I love your story about the Monty Hall problem. Consider putting it as a toplevel anecdote in the Discussion Section.
5Swimmer963 (Miranda Dixon-Luinenburg)
I'm very interesting in reading your future posts! It sounds like you have a lot of potential and a lot of learning to do, which is always the most exciting combination. I wish I could be your roommate and get to hear all of this!
tmgerbich100

Wow. So, I'm basically brand new to this site. I've never taken a logic class and I've never read extensively on the subjects discussed here. So if I say something unbearably unsophisticated or naive, please direct me somewhere useful. But I do have a couple comments/questions about this post and some of the replies.

I don't think it's fair to completely discount prayer. When I was a young child, I asked my grandmother why I should bother praying, when God supposedly loved everyone the same and people praying for much more important things didn't get what ... (read more)

0Emile
Funny, it's the second time this past week or so that I encounter a Lesswronger that identifies as Catholic. (Welcome to LessWrong by the way!)
3DBreneman
Hi there, nice to know I'm not the only one absolutely new and quaking in my slippers here. I don't think you're quite making the mistake of believing in belief. I can't model your brain accurately just by reading a few paragraphs of course, but you don't seem to show much flinching-away from admitting the judeo-christian god and the catholic interpretation of it is wrong. I think you're more identifying the religion of your family and peers as your 'group' (tribe, nation, whatever wording you prefer) and shying away from dropping it as part of your identity for the same reason a strong patriot would hate the feeling of betraying their country. I remember reading a thing about this by... some famous secularist writer, Dawkins or Harris I think. About a million years ago, for all the good my memory is serving me on the matter. I'll try and find it for you. As for being attracted to a higher order of things, well.. I agree with you. I just happen to think that higher order is quite physical in nature, hidden from us by the mundanity of its appearance. I think you might really want to read the sequences: http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Reductionism_(sequence) and http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Joy_in_the_Merely_Real
5Larks
Hey, welcome to Less Wrong! You might want to take a moment to introduce yourself at the welcome thread. Hope you find LW enjoyable and educational!
tmgerbich100

How about Gloop, who considers the possibility that the fact that the sky is blue now has no actual bearing on what the color of the sky might have been when the scraps of paper were written? He can entertain the possibility that the composition of the atmosphere might have changed during all the time people spent underground, so he establishes a laboratory to investigate if A) what particles were present in the air at the time the paper was written and B) if they were able to scatter blue or green light more efficiently?

9khafra
I would suspect motivated continuation.