All of Tom_Talbot's Comments + Replies

The only way to get rich from a get-rich book is to write one.

Brother Ty's seventh law

Why might not whole communities and public bodies be seized with fits of insanity, as well as individuals? Nothing but this principle, that they are liable to insanity, equally at least with private persons, can account for the major part of those transactions of which we read in history.

Bishop Joseph Butler

MixedNuts180

Because the mechanisms for encoding goals, planning, and updating on new information are completely different. They may malfuction in both cases, but you'll be better off looking at how it's supposed to work and how it fails than making a surface anaology with humans. Otherwise either you've just said "Both of these things break sometimes" or you're going to run off and predict economic fluctuations by analogy to mood swings or something.

Friedman continues, but I shortened the quote to make it punchier. Essentially he says that, (1) given a large number of individuals irrationality will average out in the aggregate, (2) In most cases that an economist would be interested in (eg. investors, CEOs) the individuals have been selected to be good at the task they are performing, i.e. not irrational in that domain.

Unnamed150

In some contexts it makes sense to talk about errors in opposite directions canceling out but in others it does not as errors only accumulate. Suppose one person overestimates how much they'll enjoy having an iPad and buys one when they'd be better off without one, and another person underestimates how much they'll enjoy having an iPad and doesn't buy one when they'd be better off with one. Looking at the total number of iPads sold, these errors cancel out. But looking at total human welfare, the errors just add up - two people are each less happy than ... (read more)

wedrifid110

Friedman continues, but I shortened the quote to make it punchier. Essentially he says that, (1) given a large number of individuals irrationality will average out in the aggregate,

This is the part that sounds (and is) wrong. It would perhaps be correct if it was "given a large number of individuals selected from mind space via a carefully crafted distribution of deviations about some mind the irrationality will average out in the aggregate". The irrationality of a large number of human individuals will not average out.

0[anonymous]
Both claims are implausible. Is there some kind of substantiation?

A writer on structuralism in the Times Literary Supplement has suggested that thoughts which are confused and tortuous by reason of their profundity are most appropriately expressed in prose that is deliberately unclear. What a preposterously silly idea! I am reminded of an air-raid warden in wartime Oxford who, when bright moonlight seemed to be defeating the spirit of the blackout, exhorted us to wear dark glasses. He, however, was being funny on purpose.

Peter Medawar

player_03300

Daniel Oppenheimer's Ig Nobel Prize acceptance speech:

My research shows that conciseness is interpreted as intelligence. So, thank you.

I think Mencken was using it in the sense of, "A peasant; a rustic; a farm servant.", (see also). It's an unusual usage.

Suppose we know someone's objective and also know that half the time that person correctly figures out how to achieve it and half the time he acts at random. Since there is generally only one right way of doing things (or perhaps a few) but very many wrong ways, the "rational" behavior can be predicted but the "irrational" behavior cannot. If we predict the person's behavior on the assumption that he is rational, we will be right half the time. If we assume he is irrational, we will almost never be right, since we still have to guess w

... (read more)
Unnamed140

Even when errors are only random noise, modeling people as rational is different from modeling people as rational on average with random errors. If people are rational, that implies that someone with a dangerous job has properly taken the risks into account when choosing the job. But if people are rational on average with random errors, then the person who ends up with a dangerous job is probably someone who underestimated/underweighted the risks (which is a case of the winner's curse).

Raemon160

Upvoted because it provoked interesting thoughts, even though I disagree with it.

I can actually say in advance which irrational things I am likely to do on a given day. (For example, be up at 1 AM posting on Less Wrong instead of sleeping). If I know enough about a person to know their goals and approximate level of education as relates to those goals, I usually also know enough to have a sense of what types of irrational things they tend to do.

cousin_it420

This sounds wrong. Biases have predictable direction, that's why they're called biases and not variance (ahem).

The inferior man's reasons for hating knowledge are not hard to discern. He hates it because it is complex - because it puts an unbearable burden upon his meagre capacity to take in ideas. Thus his search is always for short cuts. All superstitions are short cuts. Their aim is to make the unintelligible simple, and even obvious. So on what seem to be higher levels. No man who has not had a long and arduous education can understand even the most elementary concepts of modern pathology. But even a hind at the plough can grasp the theory of chiropractic in t

... (read more)
MixedNuts250

Alternate hypothesis: the inferior man hates knowledge because "Yay knowledge!" is associated with people like Mencken, who go around calling people things like "inferior man" because they're poor and uneducated.

0MinibearRex
Do you mean "hand"?

The day we allow biochauvinism to overtake Less Wrong is the day I leave for good.

As far as I know, there are none. I mention it because I find I tend to be fresher and more motivated in the morning, so if I wanted to take up a new habit such as practicing dual n-back, I would schedule it in the morning. I'm really just throwing out ideas for the wiki.

4gwern
As far as DNB goes, evening is better than morning: http://www.gwern.net/N-back%20FAQ#sleep (My rule of thumb is that if something has to do with memory, you're best off doing it ceteris paribus before sleep.)
1steven0461
The article you linked doesn't actually mention any intelligence benefits.

I recommend O'Reilly's Mind Performance Hacks and the accompanying Mentat Wiki. I was particularly interested in the exoself which is really just a combination of the Hipster PDA and a Motivaider.

Also, touchtyping is the closest thing to a Direct Neural Interface you can get today. If you don't know how to do it, learn!

7MBlume
Definitely if you program, and quite possibly if you don't, using a 'real' editor like vim, or emacs, is almost as much of an increase in productivity over something like textpad as touch-typing is over hunt-and-peck. That sentence was awkward... Using vim fluently : Textpad :: touch-typing : hunt-and-peck.
3Relsqui
Also, does anyone remember that in the days before ubiquitous cheap electronics, the equivalent of the motivaider was tying a string around your finger? The only difference seems to be that the motivaider can actively alert you, whereas the string must passively rely on you noticing it.
6Relsqui
For an interface to a computer, I completely agree; mice are for art and play, keyboards are for getting other work done. However, while I have excellent touchtyping speed and a small portable netbook, I still take class notes, and often brainstorm, on paper. Why? It's the easiest possible way to work in two dimensions. I can make outlines, add margin notes, connect related ideas with arrows, and draw diagrams, without being confined to a grid or having to switch modes between location selection and input. I don't know of and have difficulty imagining the computer program that would let me do this anywhere near as fluidly, although if someone knows one I'd love to hear about it.
1xamdam
"How to read an article about speed reading in 20 minutes" would me a more honest title, considering that some brain re-wiring is required.

Does Clippy maximise number-of-paperclips-in-universe (given all available information) or some proxy variable like number-of-paperclips-counted-so-far? If the former, Clippy does not want to move to a simulation. If the latter, Clippy does want to move to a simulation.

The same analysis applies to humankind.

2Clippy
I maximize the number of papercips in the universe (that exist an arbitrarily long time from now). I use "number of paperclips counted so far" as a measure of progress, but it is always screened off by more direct measures, or expected quantities, of paperclips in the universe.
3Sniffnoy
I'm not certain that's so, as ISTM many of the things humanity wants to maximize are to a large extent representation-invariant - in particular because they refer to other people - and could be done just as well in a simulation. The obvious exception being actual knowledge of the outside world.

I'll have a go. I'm in Oxford.

A pickup line: "I want to update on your posterior."

Recommended accompaniment: the "buddy" gesture

A pickup line: "I'll maximise your utility if you utilise my virility."

6Ben Pace
I'll maximise your utility if you utilise my masculinity.

Awww... Don't downvote YYUUUU, It's rationalist anti-humour! What a great idea!

How do you prevent a rapidly self-replicating em from driving wages down to subsistence level?

HIT IT WITH AN AXE


A p-zombie walks into a bar but is fundamentally incapable of perceiving its situation and so to derive humour would be exploitative.


A guy walks into an AI conference and says he thinks he can create Friendly AI using complex emergent chaotic simulated paradigms.

So I stabbed him.

The obscurity of that rationalist pun is abayesing.

I was genuinely trying to be helpful. I apologise for lack of context/social skills. The fact that you said it was orange made me think of street lighting, and the v-shape of migrating birds.

Anyway, I googled and this explains what I meant:

"Birds

Individually and in flocks, birds can catch out the unwary. Many fuzzy, elliptical UFOs captured by chance on photographs have been attributed to birds flying unnoticed through the field of view just as the shutter was pressed.

Migrating flocks of birds can create UFO ‘formations’, particularly if lit up by str... (read more)

On second thoughts the sun would provide too much light, street lights maybe?

2Jayson_Virissimo
I can't tell if you are honestly trying to help or making fun of me. Although it is possible that it was the things that you mentioned, it feels like it would if I thought I saw an eagle in my backyard and you asked "are you sure it wasn't a pigeon?"

Was the sun setting? It could have been illuminating the underbellies of a flock of geese.

0Tom_Talbot
On second thoughts the sun would provide too much light, street lights maybe?

"If the tool you have is a hammer, make the problem look like a nail."

Steven W. Smith, The Scientist and Engineer's Guide to Digital Signal Processing

I think book discussions are an excellent idea, particularly for technical topics.

Oxford is good for me, but London is fine. Anywhere with a whiteboard is going to cost money to book, so take that into account.

As far as I could tell, the multiplicity of AIs thing came from people objecting to hard takeoff scenarios, so that confusion should be soluble, given more time to explain the subject (Roko was packing a massive number of ideas into that talk.)

1MichaelHoward
You can get whiteboard roll for about a pound a (reusable) sheet. I haven't seen it first hand, but it looks fit for purpose & was good enough to get an investment on Dragon's Den.
2Emily
If you all wanted to come to Cambridge I could probably get you a seminar room for free... A LW meetup is one of those things I'd kind of like to go to in the abstract, but in reality I think it would be much too terrifying.

This extrobrittania video contains some financial details about cryonics in the uk.

And they transpose the conditional! If a sample is likely given the hypothesis, it does not necessarily follow that the the hypothesis is likely given the sample. This always struck me as the most egregious failure of naive significance testing.

0Liron
Though the two conditional probabilities are admittedly proportional.

The conversion techniques page is fascinating. I'll put this to use good in further spreading the word of Bayes.

This is an excellent list, and would serve well as an introduction to Less Wrong.

Squeak/Etoys takes a constructivist approach to teaching children. Is this the kind of thing you're thinking of?

0Morendil
I'm thinking more specifically of "parlor game" formats, because that's a situation conducive to a rich exchange of ideas in the debrief. Single-player games are interesting as well, but all I usually get from them is some recombined version of my own thoughts and insights. There is something uniquely interesting about small-group discussions around transforming ideas: I find that every person in the group has seen things under a slightly different angle, and most of the time one or more participants have thought of something I would never have considered on my own. An Internet discussion forum can work to some extent, but my favorite games tend to involve some kind of physical tokens or game pieces - possibly because I favor the kinesthetic modality for learning.

Besides porking (really) hot babes, flipping out, wailing on guitars, and cutting off heads, a ninja has to train. They have to meditate ALL THE TIME. But most importantly, each morning a ninja should think about going a little crazier than the day before. Beyond thinking about going berserk, a ninja must, by definition, actually go berserk.

Robert Hamburger, REAL Ultimate Power, The Official Ninja Book

1gwern

I won’t teach a man who is not eager to learn, nor will I explain to one incapable of forming his own ideas. Nor have I anything more to say to those who, after I have made clear one corner of the subject, cannot deduce the other three.

Confucius

0Jonathan_Graehl
i.e. if you don't agree with me, you're stupid.

The unwillingness to tolerate or respect any social forces which are not recognizable as the product of intelligent design, which is so important a cause of the present desire for comprehensive economic planning, is indeed only one aspect of a more general movement. We meet the same tendency in the field of morals and conventions, in the desire to substitute an artificial for the existing languages, and in the whole modern attitude toward processes which govern the growth of knowledge. The belief that only a synthetic system of morals, an artificial langu

... (read more)
1SilasBarta
I lean libertarian, and have long worn the "yay Hayek!" mantle, but, looking back... It seems like he's unfairly using a) poorly-grounded attempts at large-scale social planning, to justify b) a philosophical, universal belief in the superiority of self-organizing systems over designed ones (i.e. even in building a robot). Eliezer Yudkowsky has previous criticized b) in the context of Rodney Brooks's preferred robotic architecture. In some contexts, a centrally-planned mechanism which is the product of conscious individual reason is a better way to go. The inferiority of planned economies is not due to the very general superiority of self-organization that Hayek is claiming here.
1wedrifid
Really wish Friedrich used more paragraphs and less commas.

We could all just mark ourselves on a map like Frappr, that way we'd know where it was worth organising meets.

Sounds fun! Easy to implement on a computer too. I wonder if players would discover the best strategy simply by practicing (and not by reasoning about the game).

4dclayh
And I wonder if doctors discover the best strategy the same way.

This is what I thought everyone was going to say. I don't see why you'd be concerned about the paycheck though, a strong mathematics background could land you a job as a banker or trader or something. But looking at your upvotes it seems like plenty of people agree with you.

My next question would be what you'd like to have a basic introduction to. Plenty of LW posts tend to assume a grounding in subjects like maths, economics or philosophy - which is fine, this is a community for informed people - but it probably shrinks LW's audience somewhat, and certain... (read more)

0[anonymous]
My upvotes are probably due to the fact that I said mathematics, rather than any agreement concerning my potential lack of paycheck. I know that a mathematics background could supply me a paycheck at this point in my life, but I was urged against it by some other people when I was choosing my major. Basic introduction to? Is this in addition to the expertise I got from the genie, or if the genie was only offering me a basic introduction? Do I only get to choose one? Gee that's hard. I'm pretty much working on having a basic introduction to everything already. So, given my existing basic introductions... I think I'd like to get a basic introduction to quantum physics... but that's kind of cheating because I'd have to know a lot of physics and mathematics in the basic intro. I choose that one because I want to know it for purely vain reasons, and it would be nice to save the time of learning it for more "useful" studies. This blog definitely is going to appeal to a minority of people. I personally do not have the proper education to follow the bayesian/frequentist debate, though I want to hear about it. I think that the healthy practice of linking to information is fantastic, as well as the lesswrong wiki. That way if you know what the person is talking about, you don't have to follow the link, but if you need to learn, it's right there at your fingertips. Edit: Oh right, and I can't contribute to quantum physics discussions very well either.

I read this and at first I was like, "Damn! Not only did my anti-sexism plan fail, it made me even more sexist!" but then I was all, "No way! I'm going to find a bunch of evidence that genies can't be neuter! That'll show 'em! Show all of them." but then I read the Wikipedia article and it goes, "The pre-Islamic Zoroastrian culture of ancient Persia believed in jaini/jahi, evil female spirits thought to spread diseases to people." and I was totally like, "God fucking damnit! That's like... sexism squared!"

Well you might have won this round, Yudkowsky. But you haven't seen the last of me!

I've been thinking about educational games as well. The main problem, it seems to me, is that trying to make learning fun for someone who isn't already interested and motivated is a waste of time because you're just trying to hide the teaching under a sugarcoating of computer game, and that never works. On the other hand trying to make learning fun for someone who is already interested and motivated is pointless, because they already want to learn and the game just adds needless hassle like completing levels in order to reach the next piece of knowledge, o... (read more)

0gwern
http://www.gwern.net/Spaced%20repetition#abstraction
2[anonymous]
If this is true and you aren't too much of an outlier, it would go a decent way to explain the failure of a good chunk of educational theory in the past few centuries.

OK, I see where you're coming from. Learning to play the violin is frustrating, but it's probably fun once you can do it.

So if we could find a way to make learning easier, hypothetically speaking, you would use that opportunity to be a better generalist rather than further specialising in your chosen area? That's interesting because specialists are usually better paid. I wonder if that's a common point of view.

LWers are generalists, in general. Most of us know some psychology, some economics, some philosophy, some programming and so on. But I wonder what... (read more)

1Alicorn
If learning, in general, became easier for me, I would learn more, in general. I don't think I'd use it to do more philosophy; I think I'd use it to do the same amount of philosophy in less time. If learning became a whole lot easier, I'd probably study foreign languages in my spare time. The ability to communicate in more languages would open up more learning potential than most other tasks.

So you wouldn't pick instant expertise in philosophy because that would take the fun out of it. Do you think that if studying philosophy was easier, it would be less fun? I'm not convinced because no matter how much of an expert you are, there's still more to learn. The genie is offering you the chance to be at the cutting edge of your field.

2Alicorn
No. I'm saying that fun is my motivation for studying philosophy, because when I decide how to invest years of my life, I want to choose fun investments. Your genie opens up the options of choosing to (productively) invest directly in the practice, rather than the study, of various fields. There are fields that I think I would enjoy being an expert in that I would not enjoy the process of studying to become an expert in, especially when you consider that intrinsic talent/motivation/etc. might block me from acquiring expertise in some fields that the genie could make me brilliant at. Some of those fields might also net me money. Bypassing a potentially-unfun studying step makes several of them more appealing than philosophy.

So you pick the area with the highest expected monetary payoff? I'm not sure that skills in singing or creative writing serve that end, since the competition is so intense and the selection process for successful singers and writers seems somewhat arbitrary and random.

I see what you mean about the amount of effort required changing which area you would pick, and that was part of what I was getting at. I wonder how many of us choose to study a particular subject because it's easier than the alternatives, then rationalise it later as what we really wanted. If effort wasn't a factor and you could have chosen to study anything, what would it have been? If we on Less Wrong find ways to make learning easier, what will you do?

1Alicorn
Creative writing might not serve that end, but it's hardly the longest of long shots, and moreover, writing creatively is something I enjoy, unlike doing math or working on hard science or whatever. So even if I don't wind up writing bestselling books and making a billion dollars, I can still have fun writing excellent books. It's a tradeoff between expected monetary payoff, and the enjoyability of the task to turn the skill into the payoff. I'm studying philosophy because most of the time, studying philosophy is fun. It's not consistently easy, and it's not going to make me a lot of money now or later, but it entertains me. If effort wasn't a factor I could study, oh, medicine, and be a brilliant physician, or law and be a brilliant lawyer, but I don't expect that (even effort aside) I would enjoy the study or practice of those fields.

This comment doesn't really go anywhere, just some vague thoughts on fun. I've been reading A Theory of Fun For Game Design. It's not very good, but it has some interesting bits (have you noticed that when you jump in different videogames, you stay in there air for the same length of time? Apparently game developers all converged on an air time that feels natural, by trial and error). At one point the author asserts that having to think things through consciously is boring, but learning and using unconscious skills is fun. So a novice chess player gets bor... (read more)

2Daniel_Burfoot
I think Flow is one of the most important ideas to have come out of psychology. My hypothesis for why it's not more widely known is that the creator's name is so difficult to spell and pronounce. My belief is that the learning part of your brain sends a signal to the decision-making part, when the former is experiencing a type of stimulus that is highly learnable. That signal is treated by the decision making part in the same way as a more typically pleasant signal (food, sex, etc) would be. Flow is thus an evolutionary adaptation that makes us seek experiences that help us learn more rapidly (the underlying assumption being that not all stimuli are equally learnable). I think Flow is pretty good as a theory of fun, or as a theory of fun-from-learning. Flow is the best way to learn. The problem is that not all ideas can be learned in a way that meets the Flow criteria (rapid feedback, ability to experiment, clear goals, challenge keyed to ability level). So the interesting questions in my view are how to rephrase learning problems in such a way that one can enter Flow states when approaching those problems.
0MendelSchmiedekamp
A few years ago I had developed a theory of game playing and low pressure social group interaction which starts at a similar place as Koster's. I was able to take that starting point about play and patterns and produce empirically testable hypotheses with formal mathematical models of what is happening during play. And then I stopped working on it because I couldn't seem to get across the concept that learning and fun might be related well enough. Now that I've had a chance to read his book, I might have to reconsider.

I checked with the genie and he said fine. Not very rationalist-y of you, though.

3Alicorn
I'm more likely to become massively rich by being a fantastic singer than I am to become massively rich by being a fantastic philosopher, or even a fantastic economist. My education-related values change some if I don't have to invest time or effort in acquiring the expertise. That said, I don't think I'll pick singing. I think I'll pick creative writing.

Imagine you find a magic lamp. You polish it and, as expected, a genie pops out. However, it's a special kind of genie and instead of offering you three wishes it offers to make you an expert in anything, equal to the greatest mind working in that field today, instantly and with no effort on your part. You only get to choose one subject area, with "subject area" defined as anything offered as a degree by a respectable university. Also if you try to trick the genie he'll kick you in the nads*.

So if you could learn anything, what would you learn?

*T... (read more)

0Scott Alexander
For personal interest, neuroscience (and the genie would wave his wand, and I would be V. Ramachandran). For benefit to society, probably genetics (or do colleges offer degrees in AI?) I'd also like to see if I could use the genie to answer one of the great questions of the ages. I guess it all depends on how the "expert" thing is implemented. For example, if the genie created a great expert in quantum mechanics, would the expert simply know and understand facts about quantum mechanics, or would they also be such an expert as to have the correct opinion on the Copenhagen vs. many worlds question? After all, Tom did say "an expert equivalent to the greatest mind today", and there are minds that are pretty sure they know the answer to that question, so the mind that has the correct opinion on it must be greater than an equivalent mind that doesn't. That means if I wake up and find myself believing Many Worlds, I have very strong evidence that Many Worlds is correct. If I thought that plan would work, I'd probably choose Philosophy. I might get kicked in the 'nads, but for the chance to have genie-approved answers all the great philosophical questions at once, it'd be worth it.
0spriteless
I'd pick neurology, assuming that doesn't cause my brain to implode.
1CronoDAS
I want to know foreign languages, especially Japanese, but I find them much harder to learn than other things, due to the sheer amount of brute force memorization required to learn vocabulary. The other thing I would consider is this.
0[anonymous]
I would go for whatever could make me the most money with the pure skill that they teach in school. In most professions, it seems like you need either some talent at sales or self-promotion or just luck to be successful, in addition to whatever skill you supposedly have. I think that maybe being the world's greatest computer engineer or something like that would probably get you paid millions without having do much other than be amazing at what you do. My initial thinking was cardiac surgeon or something like that, but on further reflection I think that is about the worst choice possible. You have this amazing skill, but what do you do with it? Do you have to go to medical school and get easy As before you can get licensed to use it? That would really suck.
0Psy-Kosh
I'd have to agree with "math", given that the ability granted includes not just comprehensive knowledge, but extreme ability to make novel important and fundamental discoveries in the field. (How is babby genie formed? (Sorry, couldn't resist))
3Eliezer Yudkowsky
Hard to choose between Science and Math, but I'll take Math. Hey, B.Sc is a degree, right?
3JamesAndrix
Marketing
1Eliezer Yudkowsky
You're solving the wrong problem by including this asterisk. It's easy to just call the genie "it" - which you already did above - and pick a different action - "rip off your arms" would work as well.
3Nanani
Biology, specifically brain-related neurosci. I never could get far studying it because of the immense squick factor, but if I could just KNOW all of it via genie, the squick ought to go away because then it'd be just so much brain bits. Kind of like how intimidating complex and austere symbols become just regular greek letters after learning to read math.
7[anonymous]
Mathematics Its the foundation for everything else I want to learn. I don't know why I didn't major in it- other than concerns for a paycheck.
0Alicorn
Does this apply only to theoretical expertise, or could I choose (say) vocal music and then totally win on American Idol?

On the subject of advice to novices, I wanted to share a bit I got out of Understanding Uncertainty. This is going to seem painfully simple to a seasoned bayesian, but it's not meant for you. Rather, it's intended for someone who has never made a probability estimate before. Say a person has just learned about the bayesian view of probability and understands what a probability estimate is, actually translating beliefs into numerical estimates can still seem weird and difficult.

The book's advice is to use the standard balls-in-an-urn model to get an intuit... (read more)

0[anonymous]
Thanks, if this is what you're saying it is, it's something I've been looking for. :-)

Have you ever learned a useful fact from the PUA discussions here?

Basically, assigning certain attributes to either sex effectively prohibits those attributes in the other sex. That is not useful or rational, that is just limiting the potential.

Upvoted for this but... in a way this reminds me of the Tversky and Edwards experiment mentioned in the Technical Explanation where participants are shown a sequence of red and blue cards and asked to guess the next in the sequence. Since 70% of the cards are blue the best strategy is to always guess blue, but participants irrationally guess a mixture of blue and red as if they... (read more)

8Rakel
You raise a good point. There are certain statistically proven differences between sexes and making generalizations based on these statistics is a good strategy for example under the conditions you specified. Differencies of this kind include things like "men on average are taller than women" and "women on average have higher percantage of body fat than men". I don't think anyone in here has a problem with generalizations like these. My point was that there is a different class of generalizations which is problematic. One of the examples I used above was "men don't cry". This implies that if you don't adhere to the norm described, you don't fit in. Showing emotions is "unmanly" and and boys are actually told this when growing up (using a masculine example purely intentional). While the claim "men don't cry" might have some statistical support, we should think about the causal relations between the claim and the reality. The fact that the claim exists and is used bringing up boys will establish a situation where it becomes a norm. Men will not cry because they are told not to, not because that is inherently built in the Y chromosome. With generalizations like this everyone in here should have a problem. On your comment about excluding discussions about sex from other discussions about rationalism: I think this would generate a unneccessary blind spot. Rationalism should be applied whenever possible, and I find discussions about sex in no way an exception to this "rule". The area is difficult because humans are so interested in it and it affects us in many ways, most of which are hard to see. This is why there might be a lot to gain.
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