All of wiresnips's Comments + Replies

wiresnips110

Agreed. Squicky dilemmas designed to showcase utilitarianism are not generally found in real life (as far as I know). And a human probably couldn't be trusted to make a sound judgement call even if one were found. Running on untrusted hardware and such.

Ah- and this is the point of the quote. Oh, I like that.

wiresnips140

Utilitarianism isn't a description of human moral processing, it's a proposal for how to improve it.

One problem is that if we, say, start admiring people for acting in "more utilitarian" ways, what we may actually be selecting for is psychopathy.

wiresnips170

That's not necessarily false, but it's a dangerous thing to say to yourself. Mostly when I find myself thinking it, I've just wasted a great deal of time, and I'm trying to convince myself that it wasn't really wasted. It's easy to tell myself, hard to verify, and more pleasant than thinking my time-investment was for nothing.

DanielLC120

It sure seems like a step up from when your time is really wasted, and you spent it all playing on the computer.

This is transformative. Thank you.

1Eugine_Nier
I have, and I've come to the conclusion that Eliezer's solution, i.e., suppress all knowledge of it, won't actually work.
1Jayson_Virissimo
Agreed, but I think the exceptions are very few.

Either both are true, or neither.

0pedanterrific
How's that then? Suppose Gombrich is Hing a NC, it doesn't follow that anyone who can HaNC can make us see nonexistent thread; perhaps it's necessary but not sufficient. On the other hand, maybe it is true that anyone who can HaNC can make us see things, but Gombrich is fumbling his needle- it's just not noticeable because the thread actually exists in that case.
1Will_Newsome
Yeah, I spent a few minutes as I was falling asleep trying to rationalize that but don't remember if I came up with anything sensible. ETA: Something to do with metaphors and level-crossing.
0[anonymous]
Not necessarily true. Could be that it only works in some subset of cases, of which Gombritch's happens to be one.

Anyone smart enough to be dangerous is smart enough to be safe? I'm skeptical- folksy wisdom tells me that being smart doesn't protect you from being stupid.

But in general, yes- the threat becomes more and more tangible as the barrier to AI gets lower and the number of players increases. At the moment, it seems pretty intangible, but I haven't actually gone out and counted dangerously smart AI researchers- I might be surprised by how many there are.

To be clear, I was NOT trying to imply that we should actually right now form the Turing Police.

0[anonymous]
As I understand it, the argument (roughly) is that if you build an AI from scratch, using just tools available now, you will have to specify its utility function, in a way that the program can understand, as part of that process. Anyone actually trying to work out a utility function that can be programmed would have to have a fairly deep understanding - you can't just type "make nice things happen and no bad things", but have to think in terms that can be converted into C or Perl or whatever. In doing so, you would have to have some kind of understanding in your own head of what you're telling the computer to do, and would be likely to avoid at least the most obvious failure modes. However, in (say) twenty years that might not be the case - it might be (as an example) that we have natural language processing programs that can take a sentence like 'make people happy' and have some form of 'understanding' of it, while still not being Turing-test-passing, self-modification-capable fully general AIs. It could then get to the stage that some half-clever person could think "Hmm... If I put this and this and this together, I'll have a self-modifying AI. And then I'll just tell it to make everyone smile. What could go wrong?"

Edited, in the interest of caution.

However, this is exactly the issue I'm trying to discuss. It looks as though, if we take the threat of uncaring AI seriously, this is a real problem and it demands a real solution. The only solution that I can see is morally abhorrent, and I'm trying to open a discussion looking for a better one. Any suggestions on how to do this would be appreciated.

2Nick_Tarleton
It's already been linked to a couple times under this post, but: have you read http://lesswrong.com/lw/v1/ethical_injunctions/ and the posts it links to? In any case, non-abhorrent solutions include "work on FAI" and "talk to AGI researchers, some of whom will listen (especially if you don't start off with how we're all going to die unless they repent, even though that's the natural first thought)".
3[anonymous]
As I understand it from reading the sequences, Eliezer's position roughly boils down to "most AI researchers are dilettantes and no danger to anyone at the moment. Anyone capable of solving the problems in AI at the moment will have to be bright enough, and gain enough insights from their work, that they'll probably have to solve Friendliness as part of it - or at least be competent enough that if SIAI shout loud enough about Friendliness they'll listen. The problem comes if Friendliness isn't solved before the point where it becomes possible to build an AI without any special insight, just by throwing computing power at it along with a load of out-of-the-box software and getting 'lucky'." In other words, if you're convinced by the argument that Friendly AI is the most important problem facing us, the thing to do is work on Friendly AI rather than prevent other people working on unFriendly AI. Find an area of the problem no-one else is working on, and do that. That might sound hard, but it's infinitely more productive than finding the baddies and shooting at them.

If we accept that what someone 'wants' can be distinct from their behaviour, then "what do I want?" and "what will I do?" are two different questions (unless you're perfectly rational). Presumably, a FAI scanning a brain could answer either question.

The question of which is kind of still there, though. Procrastination is lazy, but getting drunk at work is irresponsible.

3NickiH
It depends what your work is. If you're doing data entry then surfing the net is lazy. If you're driving a train and surfing the net on your phone then that's irresponsible.

One more for Ottawa. Interest is yes.

You tip when you pay, whether you're running a bill or buying drinks one by one.

If you're paying by card, usually the little card-swipey-machine(?) will ask if you want to tip, and how much. Nice and easy.

If you're paying cash, you can drop some into a visible tip jar, or leave a little pile on the bar/table. It's convenient to overpay and then use some or all of your change for this. You don't need to stick around to watch this be picked up. edit: absolutely agree with JoshuaZ- you should wait for your change. After accepting it you don't need to be pres... (read more)

I'll take a swing at it- let me know if it's helpful at all.

Ordering at a bar is easiest if you're friendly with the bartender. A jovial attitude, a confession of ignorance, and a vague description of a target drink (ie, "colorful and with rum", or "something delicious") will prompt a short exchange wherein the tender narrows their options down a little. Err towards generous tipping.

Note that I stick to quiet establishments. This probably doesn't work nearly as well in a very busy bar.

0[anonymous]
How are the mechanics of tipping managed?
4Zando
Of course, this depends on where you are. In UK pubs you order your drink - and generally food - at the bar. And you don't tip. Though apparently you can "offer to buy the barkman/maid a drink." Took me a while to get used to this. In fact, tipping in general in the UK is still a bit mysterious to me after living here for a year. The guides say tip your Taxi driver around 10%, but why do they so often seem surprised when I do? As for delivery people, some of them actually refuse a tip, because of rules etc. If all this means that these people get a reasonably good wage and don't need the tips, I'm happy to comply; but it still seems odd to me.
6Sniffnoy
Actually, this is something I meant to ask about. Not how much to tip, which has well been covered elsewhere, but how one goes about the actual action of giving someone a tip. (I am generalizing beyond bars here).
wiresnips350

Whatever elaborate, and grotesquely counter-intuitive, underpinnings there might be to familiar reality, it stubbornly continues to be familiar. When Rutherford showed that atoms were mostly empty space, did the ground become any less solid? The truth itself changes nothing.

-- Greg Egan, Quarantine

2Document
Also known as Egan's law. (Personally I think it should be called Stavrianos' law after (I assume) the character, but I wasn't asked.)
0Maelin
I like this. Similar vein to the litany of Gendlin.

"properly applied" qualifies it as practice

Isn't beauty a set of built-in fitness testing heuristics? If so, fitness really does cause beauty.

It's worth pointing out that beauty also really does cause fitness. The runaway cycle is the peacock effect.

0wedrifid
Also known as Fisherian Runaway.
0PhilGoetz
By "fitness" I meant "health".
1NancyLebovitz
As far as I can tell, beauty is a combination of health heuristics and status markers which are developed in particular societies-- some of the status markers are about rarity and others are about costly signals.

I have a guess:

Let's say that studying philosophy is gratifying in and of itself. That would make the study of philosophy an intrinsic good. There might be some parts of philosophy whose study yields an instrumental good. These would be the "pragmatic" parts.

if you can translate them, they're hardly untranslatable

DaFranker110

The problem isn't quite so much "they can be translated" as... to translate them, you need to pause and first explain the concept. There is no existing conceptual token, phrase, meme, word or other sort of direct translation of the message for these Untranslatables, at least in the fiction, because their speaker did not explain them, they simply used the token.

The translation software (presumably) does not understand this stuff, and will not create new explanations where none was given by the speaker it is attempting to translate (again, presuma... (read more)

2Elliott
Really? In that case, please translate the word "naches" from Yiddish to English in one word.

I explicitly uninstalled my other browsers, in point of fact. Reinstalling them is enough trouble that it's no worth it. I know that I've known about the disable-the-addon trick, but I definitely forgot about it.

It'll be interesting to see if you've just sabotaged me with the reminder.

6eugman
Good news! The latest version of Leechblock allows you to disable the disable and uninstall buttons!
0RHollerith
Ouch. Sorry!

Solo, I've had pretty good results with aggressive leechblock settings. My habitual timesinks are only accessible for a half-hour block each day.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/4476/

1RHollerith
Do you not have other browsers besides Firefox installed? My brain know that it can get around Leechblock by using Safari or Chrome. In fact, my brain knows it can disable Leechblock by going Tools > Add-ons and clicking on the appropriate "Disable" button. Or if Leechblock lacks a "Disable" button, by uninstalling Leechblock and installing it again later.

Polygamy is definitely to women's advantage. Since there's no real limit to the number of children a man can father, women can agree to share the very best male genetic material amongst each other and leave all the other men out in the cold. Think of the private harems that any number of rulers have maintained. In a monogamous culture, any given sub-excellent male has a much better chance of mating.

WrongBot130

Women weren't the ones who set up those harems.

Evolutionary fitness is not morality. It doesn't have a thing to do with our preferences. We are adaptation-executers, not fitness-maximizers.

Roko110

No, there's an even better system that women could adopt. They could just adopt one low-fitness male each as a husband and financial provider, and then continue to have sex with ultra-high fitness males, where fitness is determined by a screening process that women put potential suitors through. In this hypothetical scenario, some men might even form an underground community of rationalists and try to reverse engineer and crack the female screening system, and get the last laugh in the end.

4NancyLebovitz
See Shattered Dreams: My Life as a Polygamist's Wife for an extended example for why there's more to life than reproductive fitness. The author is from a fringe Mormon sect which pushes families to be one man, seven wives, and as many children as possible.Going on welfare isn't feasible because of fears that the illegal arrangement might be discovered. The result is not only a serious level of poverty, but an emotional mess because of jealousy among the women. They each wanted more time and attention from their husband than he had available.
Alicorn240

Polygyny (not necessarily generic polygamy) is to women's genetic advantage insofar as the selection of husbands depends on things that correlate with valuable genes. It is not necessarily to our advantage in other ways or under other circumstances.

I don't know that we've ever successfully assimilated a feral human either.

Widening the spread of your mentors should reduce this bias, as long as you didn't choose mentors that agree with each other. Obviously, there isn't really enough time to be taught from a wide enough sample of perspectives to properly eliminate it.

I don't think libertarians have nearly as much to say about optimization as they do about regulation. The libertarian answer would be, If you and Fred want to work something out, fine, but Sally has no business telling either of you what to do with your fish.

0wedrifid
That was my impression.

I'm quite sure that the idea won't go away, if only because in at least some cases, it'll be flagrantly true- season with a dash of confirmation bias and serve hot.

wiresnips-10

The mediocre button should be the same as simply not voting, I think. Especially since it'd have to be used quite often, no-one wants to be pushing a button for every mediocre comment. Maybe a similar effect could be reached if comments gradually accumulate negative karma with time?

2Vladimir_Nesov
That would be nice, but unfortunately you need to somehow signal that you have really considered the comment, understood it, and decided that it's nothing special. Simply downloading the page, or even reading the comment, doesn't do the trick. See also this discussion on validity of voting in ignorance.