ciphergoth comments on Boo lights: groupthink edition - Less Wrong

17 Post author: Morendil 15 February 2010 06:29PM

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Comment author: Wei_Dai 15 February 2010 09:14:19PM *  18 points [-]

I've made the point that we tend to scrutinize posts/comments more carefully for flaws when they argue against beliefs that we hold, which results in subtly flawed arguments supporting a majority position being voted up despite being flawed, while a similarly flawed argument against a majority position will more likely be discovered as flawed and voted down. This results in the appearance that there are more valid arguments supporting the majority position than there really are, and drives away those who argue against the majority position because they think they are being treated unfairly.

Does anyone disagree with this, or think that Less Wrong voters have already adequately compensated for it? Or, if you think this is a real effect, but shouldn't be called groupthink, what is the right name for it?

Comment author: ciphergoth 15 February 2010 09:28:16PM 4 points [-]

It's not I think that we don't suffer from confirmation bias - of course we do, and I doubt that we do properly compensate for it - it's that saying "groupthink" or "confirmation bias" without providing evidence doesn't advance the debate any, and seems to constitute no more than a way of sneering at people for not agreeing with you.

Comment author: Rain 16 February 2010 03:58:47AM 6 points [-]

It's not I think that we don't suffer from confirmation bias - of course we do, and I doubt that we do properly compensate for it - it's that saying "groupthink" or "confirmation bias" without providing evidence doesn't advance the debate any, and seems to constitute no more than a way of sneering at people for not agreeing with you.

There seems too much discussion on this site regarding definitions. I call them "word arguments" and tend to skip them when I sense their presence. It seems people like to categorize things, in which case a word argument is an attempt to write dictionaries so everything make sense. I much prefer to try and understand what the other person is attempting to say, perhaps even without some specific, technical word to describe it, and continue the discussion in profitable directions.

In which case, the proper response to accusations of groupthink would be, "I disagree for reasons X and Y. Now to cover your other points..." Or, in my estimation, even better, "Why does it seem like groupthink to you?" You don't even have to ask them for their definition of the word to understand what they want to tell you, so long as they spell it out. And you don't necessarily have to answer the accusation of groupthink, then, either, especially if their stated reasons are not contained in the definition of the word. Instead, you answer the points themselves: what the person was trying to convey in the first place. And you might be able to suggest they use a better word or phrase, once you understand them.

Comment author: Wei_Dai 15 February 2010 09:58:27PM *  1 point [-]

Perhaps they are not trying to convince you that there is more bias than you think (which would require evidence), but just reminding you that it does exist and is probably not being adequately compensated for? If we agree that a problem exists, then we should welcome such reminders (at least until we find some other way to solve the problem).

Comment author: RobinZ 15 February 2010 10:14:09PM *  3 points [-]

You can do that on a case-by-case basis, but the problem is that accusations of groupthink are too easy.

Edit: Come to think of it, it wouldn't be a good boo-light if it wasn't easy to make the accusation.