Rain comments on Open Thread: July 2010, Part 2 - Less Wrong

6 Post author: Alicorn 09 July 2010 06:54AM

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Comment author: Rain 30 July 2010 06:44:25PM * 16 points [-]

Since I consider these questions to be fairly loaded, I'm going to break them down and provide my own understanding of what they say before I give an answer. Please feel free to correct my analysis.

Have you ever imagined what it would be like not to understand why people react the way they do, all while others, never you, are given slack for having a worse understanding? And then to find that they're predicating their actions on misinformation that they refuse to update, no matter what you show them? And if you have, are you proud of the way you've treated a person in that position?

My rephrasing: Simulate a person, AM, who, when interacting with other people, is punished for their behavior. Assume that AM does not know why they are being punished. AM also witnesses other people performing substantially similar actions and not receiving the same punishment. AM then comes to the belief that these people are wrong in their application of punishment, and unwilling to admit they are wrong to punish, regardless of what actions AM takes to correct them. Now that you've simulated AM and gone through the scenario as described, take a moment to search through your memory for people who may fit the description who you, personally, interacted with. Did you treat them kindly or did you punish?

My answer: I punished. Having been in many positions where I don't understand why someone is reacting the way they are, I do not try to change them. Instead, I change myself, and my own understanding. I attempt to learn rather than teach. After more than a decade of applying this, I've become very adept at understanding their reasons. I am no longer AM. Please try to learn the reasons for why people react to you the way they do; it's the only way forward.

Here is an example: Someone tells AM that their tone is hostile. AM sees nothing wrong with their tone. However, they did not receive the response they desired, namely understanding of their points and worthwhile discussion. AM decides this is unacceptable and generates the hypothesis: "My tone is wrong." This is something that AM can change more easily than AM can change all of the people AM is attempting to converse with. AM then creates a series of tests and surveys to determine if this hypothesis is right or wrong, including changing their tone, and specifically asking people, "How so? Which part?" and other such questions. AM finds, and corrects, their problems with tone and continues to survey customers (conversation participants) on the quality of AM's product (conversation).

Here is the above example applied to this thread:

Me: I voted you down because you have a hostile tone.
You: At least everyone got a chance to show off how great they are, right?
Me: This is an example of the tone thing I was talking about.
You: How so?
Me: It's a rhetorical question designed to produce a slight snipe at the people who participated in the thread. I imagine a sneer on your face when I read it. I see no purpose for it other than to get in one last jab.
You: Oh. That's not how I meant it. I won't do that again.

Note that instead you posted even more rhetorical, loaded questions, one of which ("are you proud?") is specifically designed to create a negative emotional response, regardless of whether you understand that.

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (85 children)

Comment author: SilasBarta 30 July 2010 07:14:51PM * -4 points [-]

... Did you treat them kindly or did you punish?

Okay, there seems to be a misunderstanding. There are more than two options here. By not recognizing this, you mistakenly conclude that:

1) Any problem I have can be fixed by an inversion (or cessation) of "whatever I was doing".

2) There is no alternative on my part to "do exactly as others order" or "try to fundamentally change them".

3) There is no alternative on your part to a simple "be nice" or "punish".

The last one is why I asked you if you were proud of what you did, and why I'm perplexed you took it as a loaded question. You'll notice that in this thread I said (something equivalent to saying that) I am not proud of something I did in the past. I don't see it as some kind of do-or-die moment. Rather, it just probes whether you adhere to a normal golden-rule-type ethic.

I would most certainly not be proud of having failed to impart my superior understanding to a member of my community who was suffering as a result of lacking that understanding. And if all I did was lurk in the shadows, vote them down long after the fact, and hope they'll just figure everything out as a result of an opaque punishment -- well, then I'd feel really bad, to the point of being sick, like I did after my behavior in the first link you gave.

If you have actual understanding of the situation I'm in, you can give more precise advice than, "whatever it was you were doing, don't". Not-X still leaves a huge portion of the space of possibilities. It leaves unresolved the question of when I should offer negative reports regarding someone's advice and several other issues. And I think if you had really been through a similar situation, you would understand why a mere "not-X" is unhelpful, as it does not identify the salient aspects of X that were bad, or what the superior alternative is. (And some of your comments suggest that the lack of superior alternative is no big deal.)

If you're trying to help, and have the empathy and understanding you claim, I think you should act like it, and I think that this is what the values you claim to hold suggest you should do as well. (Or maybe that counts as the dreaded, selectively-invoked "trying to change you"?)

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 July 2010 07:38:32PM 9 points [-]

I'm beginning to see what you're up against.

I hope other folks will chime in if they disagree with me, but I'd say that "Are you proud of yourself?" is always an attack, and specifically a parent-to-child sort of attack at that.

If you believe it's likely that an honest answer to a question is likely to leave the person answering it feeling really bad, then the question is an attack. At the same time, I think you're telling the truth when you say you're perplexed that it was taken as a loaded question.

I've got some guesses about what's going on with you, but it's getting into pretty personal territory. Let me know if you're interested, and if so, whether you'd prefer a public post or a private message.

Comment author: komponisto 30 July 2010 07:49:07PM * 1 point [-]

I hope other folks will chime in if they disagree with me, but I'd say that "Are you proud of yourself?" is always an attack, and specifically a parent-to-child sort of attack at that.

Agree, but Silas's actual question was

And if you have, are you proud of the way you've treated a person in that position?

which could be an honest inquiry.

Comment author: NancyLebovitz 30 July 2010 11:09:01PM 9 points [-]

You're right about the quote.

However, I think asking people if they're proud of what they've done when you've made it clear you don't approve of it and they haven't shown signs of pride is still an attack, though a milder one.

Comment author: SilasBarta 30 July 2010 07:49:07PM * 0 points [-]

Okay, fair point -- I did expect that Rain would report a "not proud", though did not regard it as a sort of parent-to-child attack (how would I know?).

It's just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I'm left wondering if there's any empathic similarity at all -- if they get the same feelings I do on being cruel, so I have to really "fall back a rank" (as I call it), and end up posing such questions.

(Yes, I know that sounds really cheesy and self-serving too, but ...)

Comment author: komponisto 30 July 2010 08:09:38PM 6 points [-]

It's just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I'm left wondering if there's any empathic similarity at all

I trust you're aware that this is an ironic complaint coming from someone who attributes his social problems to an autism-spectrum disorder?

In any event, I follow discussions like this with morbid fascination, because I sympathize and empathize with both you and your interlocutors. I think you make some really good points that need to be heard, but at the same time I completely understand the criticisms of your tone and manner. On the other hand, I find myself not infrequently tempted to speak in a similar tone, and it often takes a good deal of willpower on my part to avoid doing so; but then again, I would also probably react very negatively, even to the point of bitter resentment, if someone spoke in such a tone to me.

I genuinely don't know where I stand on this, so I suppose have to incline towards the group consensus, as reflected by the voting patterns. (Which necessitates, of course, that I not vote myself, so as to avoid a sort of information cascade.)

Comment author: jimrandomh 30 July 2010 08:33:34PM 3 points [-]

It's just that some people seem to be so cold and calculating that I'm left wondering if there's any empathic similarity at all

I think that's a consequence of distance. It's easier to be a jerk to someone, deliberately or accidentally, when they seem like just a username on a forum; it's harder to recognize that a conversation has gone awry when it's all text; and it's harder to back down and apologize when there are third parties watching.

In online conversations, the emotional palette for most people seems to be: detached, amused, or angry. All other emotions are rare exceptions in online discourse - not because people don't feel them, but because text written by far-away people can't easily bring them out.

Looking through this thread, I see lots of comments (both by you and at you) which seem to make detachment impossible. No one's telling jokes, either, so the remaining option is anger.

AAAAAAAAGH! Rage rage hulksmash!

Comment author: SilasBarta 30 July 2010 08:40:18PM -2 points [-]

Well, in your case, you've actually vidchatted with me, seen the actual, breathing human on the other side, found me to be more sociable than you expected

... and still didn't feel any more inclined to clean up the misrepresentations you made of me that you were aware of :-(

Comment author: jimrandomh 30 July 2010 08:59:40PM * 3 points [-]

I've gone back and edited the comment in question, and I apologize for not having done so earlier. (And, while this doesn't really justify my not having edited it earlier - the reason I didn't edit it then was that I still hadn't fully understood what happened. Revisiting it now, I noticed what I missed the last time around - namely, a full enumeration of the people who could've prevented the situation from blowing up in the first place, including myself.) I'm not sure whether linking to or summarizing that thread would be a net positive or negative, so I won't, but you can if you think making my edit visible is worth the chance that it derails the current conversation here.

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (2 children)

Comment author: whpearson 30 July 2010 08:51:37PM 1 point [-]

Have you presented your thoughts on the mismatch between yourself and other people anywhere? I will happily delete my guess if it is not accurate.

I have a hard time knowing how to help if I don't know the problem.

Comment author: SilasBarta 30 July 2010 09:33:40PM -2 points [-]

Send me a PM if you have a diagnosis. I don't think I've made general remarks on the mismatch anywhere, though I have pointed out when people, like jimrandomh, knowingly perpetuate lies about me after being repeatedly corrected.

Comment author: Blueberry 31 July 2010 02:09:33AM 7 points [-]

As a suggestion, the phrase "my superior understanding" will rarely be well received, even in a hypothetical.

Do you ever feel angry or irritated when you post? Are you aware of when posts (yours as well as other people's) sound rude or hostile?

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (0 children)

Comment author: Rain 30 July 2010 08:34:57PM * 5 points [-]

Do you believe you have a tone problem?

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (61 children)

Comment author: Cyan 01 August 2010 12:33:58AM * 3 points [-]

I don't know about Rain, but I'd be interested to read your answer.

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (59 children)

Comment author: CronoDAS 01 August 2010 12:51:55AM 4 points [-]

You appear to be expressing disrespect. I do not find that appealing.

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (57 children)

Comment author: CronoDAS 01 August 2010 04:37:23AM * 18 points [-]

So does Rain, but I guess that's no big deal.

Maybe I'm not understanding the situation, but I perceived a lot more confusion than disrespect coming from Rain in this thread.

::pauses::

At this point I'd normally try to give some sort of advice, but, to be honest, at this point I don't know what I might say that would be helpful to you, or if you would even want me to try. The best analogy I can come up with is that of a foreigner trying to adapt to a different language and culture, such as an American trying to learn Japanese and live in Japan; us "natives" have a devil of a time trying to explain to someone what we take for granted and don't actually have explicit knowledge of.

For example, this is an explanation of "politeness levels" in the Japanese language, as seen from an outsider's perspective:

Depending on who you are speaking to, your politeness level will be very different. The correct level of politeness depends on the age of the speaker, age of the person being spoken to, time of day, astrological sign, blood type, sex, whether they are Grass or Rock Pokemon type, color of pants, and so on. For an example of Politness Levels in action, see the example below.

Japanese Teacher: Good morning, Harry.
Harry: Good Morning.
Japanese Classmates: (gasps of horror and shock)

The above would most likely be followed by violent retching. The bottom line is that Politeness Levels are completely beyond your understanding, so don't even try. Just resign yourself to talking like a little girl for the rest of your life and hope to God that no one beats you up.

source

And from what I've read about the Japanese language, this isn't much of an exaggeration. (And the part about "talking like a little girl" is pretty much dead-on.) I think I've seen "Don't try; give up" being offered as serious advice for non-Japanese people trying to understand certain aspects of Japanese culture and etiquette.

To be blunt, you often sound like an asshole when you post. (And other people, including Rain, don't.) Now, you might sound like an asshole because you're like a clueless foreigner, as you have suggested. On the other hand, you might sound like an asshole when you post because you actually are an asshole. If you're a clueless foreigner, then at least there's hope, but "teaching you how to be Japanese" would require a lot of time, effort, and willingness to work through hurt feelings on the part of you and the person who acts as your teacher, and I don't know if I actually understand the subject well enough to explain it to somebody else. But if you really are an asshole, there probably isn't much point in trying.

And there's always the chance that you should just ignore this and I should shut up, because, despite everything, you do have more karma than me.

Comment author: SilasBarta comment score below threshold [+] (55 children)

Comment author: Rain 02 August 2010 07:47:51PM * 3 points [-]

I don't understand social cues. I created an internal GLUT for social interaction, the same way I learned the English language and grammar. It took me a very long time, a lot of effort, and a willingness to update rapidly and on the fly.

My primary tools are the questions, "How so? You mean _? Which part? What do you mean? What?" (short, open-ended interjections to provide free range for expansion), a judgment of when to use them, listening to and cataloging people's statements about their social reactions (in the same way one might learn what types of food people like), and the ability to mirror the tone and body language of the person or group I'm conversing with (studying people who have expressive faces and voices helped with this).

You seem to enjoy your troll-mode statements, and seem to think it may be effective in generating conversions to truth. I believe the downvotes you receive show otherwise. I much prefer your comments-not-about-people-directly. I flinch when I think this is another "not-X" statement, but sometimes not-X is appropriate advice: when extra action is being taken (such as including specific insults against targeted individuals), removing that action can improve the situation, leaving the rest of the core intact. If someone put a tilde after every period, telling them not-tilde would be the proper thing to do.~

If you have any questions regarding my methods, I would be happy to answer them to the best of my ability, but from your response to other offers, I place a low probability on it being what you want (apparently a fully generalized understanding of human social behavior).

Comment author: Rain 30 July 2010 07:40:05PM * 6 points [-]

I'm stepping away from this conversation so I don't do anything drastic (that I haven't already deleted). Suffice to say you've succeeded once again in creating an enormous, out of proportion negative emotional response in someone who was genuinely trying to be objective and help you.

I know very few people as effective as you are at generating anger and frustration with the written word.

Comment author: whpearson 30 July 2010 07:32:23PM 4 points [-]

Compare this

The last one is why I asked you if you were proud of what you did, and why I'm perplexed you took it as a loaded question.

With this

I would most certainly not be proud of having failed to impart my superior understanding to a member of my community who was suffering as a result of lacking that understanding.

This seems like you were going to make a negative judgement if he claimed pride. Thus the question does seem loaded. Pride is one of those thing that it is not a good thing to be fairly often.

It might well be Rain thinks that you had the same sort of problems he did(?) and was taking steps that would have helped him. But for whatever reasons they don't help you.

Also try not to take karma loss too personally. It also signals to other readers of the site what is good or bad. It is simply a number in the database.

Rain comments on Open Thread: July 2010, Part 2 - Less Wrong

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