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ArisKatsaris comments on Rationality Quotes December 2011 - Less Wrong
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I can think of only such acts as wouldn't benefit such governments in question. E.g. it wouldn't benefit the US government to cook alive suspected terrorists and use their flesh to feed its troops. Cannibalism isn't part of the American national character -- and it doesn't benefit the US government either, so it doesn't do it.
But I can't think of any acts that would be effectively impossible to be committed by an institution of any government though it would benefit it, merely because it's "not in the national character" to do so. If something is not in the national character, then said institution merely does it in secret.
For example, given the American national character, it would be inconceivable for the U.S. government to kidnap its subjects' daughters to serve as concubines in the president's harem. (Something that many historical governments in fact did openly.) Do you therefore conclude that this is in fact being done in secret? Or maybe that the only reason why it's not being done is the difficulty of keeping it secret?
Primarily the latter. Consider this:
North Korea abducts women for the president's harem.
South Korea does not (neither openly nor secretly, with p~0).
And yet it's people of the same nationality on both sides of the border. Therefore such things don't seem to me to be primarily dependent on "national character". They seem to be primarily about what each leader can get away with doing. South Korea and America are semi-democratic capitalist states. North Korea is a totalitarian regime.
To get back to my comment where I explained what I consider to be a reasonable interpretation of "national character," I defined it thus:
In this discussion, I am not at all interested in the exact connection that these norms have with ethnicity or any other factors. I merely claim that for whatever reason, there is variation in such norms across governments, which sometimes gives very strong information on what they may be capable of doing.
(And anyway, several decades of life under radically different regimes imposed by foreign conquerors, one of which practices extreme isolation, will cause cultural divergences that run deeper than the immediate structure of clear incentives. Moreover, this one example is not conclusive proof that all such differences in governments' behaviors in all places and times are caused by the same factor.)
But I think that such a definition where "national character" are the norms followed by a a national government and which it's expected to be followed by a broad consensus, leads to bizarre ideas such as e.g. the "national character" of the whole of Eastern Europe must be described as having changed at the fall of communism, even though the fall came from within. So the national character suddenly modified itself, just because the norms of government changed themselves. Eh. I don't think that's really how these words are normally used.
And if we return to the subject of actually secret, non-open operations -- if I believe (which I do) that FSB bombed some of Russia's own apartment buildings (for I am a conspiracy theorist in regards to several conspiracy theories), but that the MI5 wouldn't do that against British apartments, nor would CIA do it for American apartments, I don't think it makes much sense to say that the Russian national character enables Russia to blow its own people up, but that the British and American national characters does not. The character of their respective government structures, sure. But not the national characters.
To the extent that there's a "national character" that affects policy, I feel it has primarily, perhaps even solely to do with concepts of self-identification similar in type to the concept of Clash of Civilizations by Huntington. e.g. Greece supported the Serbs in the Yugoslav wars for no more and no less reason than that its "national character" contained a self-identification with Eastern Orthodox significantly more than with Catholics or with Muslims. Now there's predictive power. In any dispute between orthodox and non-orthodox, I know that Greece will back the orthodox. I know that Arab nations will back the Palestinians against Israel. America in the Cold War self-identified as anti-communist, so in any dispute between people identifying as communists and people that didn't , I know America would back the people that didn't.
There's the extent that national character plays in regards to policy. If there's some other element in it with predictive power, I don't see it.
With some noteworthy exceptions, particularly in Africa. I do generally agree that rules of thumb like this generally have decent predictive power though.
If the exceptions are about opposition to white-racist regimes, I believe this is explained by modern-day United States identifying itself even more as multiracial and egalitarian (atleast in regards to race), than it does as anti-communist.
Yes I was mostly referring to countries that where under white rule such as South Africa and Rhodesia.
Note that equal predictive power on this set of examples can be gained by say US opposition to any system except somewhat free market universal suffrage democracy. It would also fit with the recent rhetoric that strings together meddling from Libya to Iraq in the past decade. And it fits the popular narrative about the 20th century that's been with us since way back in the late 1920's about Fascisms, Liberal Democracy and Communism battling to capture the future of mankind. But as I write I can think of many more exceptions to my hypothesis than I can to yours in the last 40 years.
Which leads me to a question, why didn't you then put that as the example for Americans in line with Greeks supporting the Orthodox side?
Edit: The last question was referring to your hypothesis rather than mine.
No. I probably don't have enough fingers and toes to count all the dictatorships the US has supported just because they happened to be anti-leftist dictatorships. I think white-rule regimes are the only type of regimes that counts lower in status than "communist" to Americans.
In conservative forums I can still hear Americans say that Greeks should be grateful for things like the US-supported junta because it "saved Greece from the commies", even though it abolished democracy.
So, no. Opposition to communists and white-rule regimes are good examples for the American "national character", but oppositions to dictatorships in general is not.
Heh. Sorry I know its an awful stereotype and I don't want to offend anyone but that's just such an American thing to do or say. Like:
"If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking German!"
I think we misunderstood each other. I basically dismissed the hypothesis I was considering in the second paragraph with the last sentence of that same paragraph.
The question was with regard to
The problem with this discussion is that "support" is an ambiguous term. The U.S. government is not a monolithic entity whose parts all act in unison so that it would be meaningful to speak of its support or opposition as a clear-cut matter. What's more, its ostensible "support" is in many cases qualified, indecisive, badly executed, and attached with monstrous strings (often due to internal conflict within USG itself) so much that it ends up being ruinous for the "supported" party.
To take only the most notable example, the U.S. "support" for the Chinese nationalists against Mao's communists was, for all practical purposes, equivalent to a prolonged backstab.
Soviet support for the Second Spanish Republic is a good example of this phenomenon.
This is just the confounding factor of foreign domination, just like in the North/South Korea example. Of course, like with all political categories, the distinctions aren't always clear, since prolonged foreign domination may gradually cause irreversible changes, or even gradually get to be seen as the normal state of affairs. Still, the different national characters of Eastern European countries have been amply demonstrated when comparing their state both before 1990 and since then.
A better example of what you're aiming for would be periods of political instability in which some extremist faction like e.g. the Nazis grabs power and proceeds to implement extremist policies that would have seemed unbelievable coming from that same country shortly before that. Clearly, such black swan events limit the predictability of any model one uses for understanding history and politics. It doesn't mean they have no predictive power during normal times, though.
These things can't be separated from each other. You are speaking as if the system of government is an independent variable. In reality, formally the same system of government imposed in different places will produce very different results, and these results are very much dependent on what is conventionally understood as "national character."
It's hard to make any concrete predictions without offending various nationalities, so I'll limit myself to offending my own kind. For example, suppose I read a story about an affair where vast millions were pillaged in corrupt dealings some years ago and yet the culprits are happy, free, and untouchable despite all this being public knowledge. If it happens in Croatia, I'll shrug my shoulders. But if I heard about this happening in, say, Denmark, I would, like Malcolm, express disbelief because it would, indeed, sound incompatible with their national character. Even though the laws on the books and the theoretical legal consequences are probably similar in both places.
I understand that you are trying to defend a better form of Malcolm's statements, but is there any other reason you are defending the phrase "national character"? One could just as easily explain the differences you note by reference to national culture, national values, national commitment to rule of law, or suchlike. By contrast, "character" is often deployed as an applause light without any way of cashing out the reference more specifically.
All these terms are also often deployed as applause lights. "National character" is just a term that is supposed to subsume them all. Nowadays this term is somewhat antiquated, and it's not a part of my regular vocabulary, but I definitely don't see any reason for why someone's casual use of it 72 years ago should raise any eyebrows (either back then or now).
In addition to my previous reply, and to separate the more controversial part from the rest:
Frankly, if you believe that people running the MI5 or the CIA would be willing and capable of doing something like that, I think you have a very distorted view of reality in this regard. Unfortunately, the inferential distances are probably too large for us to have a productive discussion about it in this context.
(In reality, I don't think CIA would be capable of killing my neighbor's cat without it leaking into the press tomorrow. In fact, they'd probably bungle the task so badly that the leak wouldn't even be necessary.)
That would have been news to many anti-communists, but let's better not go there.
The CIA assassinated a US citizen not two months ago, and the government made no attempt to hide it out of an (accurate) expectation that the public would approve. Of course I doubt the FBI has killed a white person on US soil by blowing up their apartment recently, or will in the forseeable future, but if we allow probable facts about national character to be this specific it seems that trivially any fact about what a government is likely to do is a fact about its national character.
Historically, there have at least been some iodine-poor areas within nations that outsiders might have dismissed as being full of cretins without being wholly unjustified...
They have different citizenships, different cultural messages from birth, different access to such messages from the rest of the world (such as the US). They cannot accurately be described as having the same nationality.
Different something, sure.
But North Korea has more in common with South Korea than it has in common with any other country. And South Korea is probably much closer to North Korea than any other country is to North Korea. Anyway, this is all nitpicking, because ArisKatsaris' main point remains: South Korean leaders don't refrain from harem-kidnapping based on national character, but based on the negative incentives they face.
I'm pretty sure that if you had asked me what "national character" means before this thread, I would definitely have included "personality cult around a wacky dictator"!
For the reasons laid out in the quote that started this discussion, I'm not sure "national character" refers to anything at all.
It's either all applause lights or what behaviorists might call explanatory fiction (i.e. it describes certain behavior, but does not actually explain anything).
That's not so much of a problem, provided 1) it can help you make predictions, and 2) it's not screened off by better models (which would necessarily include those that actually do explain, provided they are simple enough to be practically applied).
An explanatory fiction in the wild:
A: Why is Charlie doing badly in school?
B: He's lazy.
A: What makes you say that?
B: He's always daydreaming.
A: So let's <do some intervention that would help Charlie daydream less frequently>
B: Nah, it wouldn't work. Charlie is lazy.
So, saying that the British don't use assassination as a foreign policy tool based on their "national character" is really just saying the British don't assassinate because they don't assassinate.
Notice how saying "The British won't assassinate in the future because they haven't in the past" doesn't really invoke "national character" at all.
If "[h]e's always daydreaming" is in fact the only evidence that Charlie is lazy, then the Lazy Charlie model is poor at making predictions new situations. If it was only the most salient, and B has much experience with Charlie in other situations that leads to the same conclusion, "Charlie is lazy" may be a better model, and a daydreaming specific intervention would be of less value.
"The British won't assassinate because they haven't in the past" does not invoke "national character" but it is also discarding portions of the theory that might be put to predictive use. "The British won't assassinate because they haven't in the past, they have spoken publicly against doing so, and they seem to value the appearance of consistency", for instance - if you have evidence for each of those, you should be adjusting your belief that the British were behind the plot downward somewhat; "that they haven't in the past" is not the only kind of evidence that applies. Models of that type might, in a handwavy casual conversation (although I'm not sure Wittgenstein ever had casual conversations) be pointed at with the phrase "national character" without a specific model necessarily being described in detail.
Which governments did so? I can only think of some that politely asked families to send them their daughters.
Reread that phrase with a cynic's mind in the context of a power struggle.
How would that benefit the US government?